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The great piping fiasco? Need help!

Post in 'The Boiler Room - Wood Boilers and Furnaces' started by RowCropRenegade, Jan 4, 2010.

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  1. Jim K in PA

    Jim K in PA Minister of Fire

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    I burn ALL species of wood in my 2000. It loves any kind of DRY wood. The Ash and maple will season much faster than any kind of oak. It takes a couple of years to properly season oak down to below 30% MC. Ash will be ready in 6 months, maple maybe 8-12, depending on species and conditions. If you have some big, straight 10-12' long trunks of white oak, save them for the mill.

    BTW - with all due respect, I think you are a bit optimistic on the yield. I have yet to see the tree that bucks and splits to much more than a real cord (4x4x8 - 128 cu ft). Not sure I would want to tackle the one that did! Get those oaks bucked and split ASAP, so that you can use them for the 2011-2012 season. I like my oak splits down to 3-6". I split my ash to 4-8", and my hemlock & EWP 8-10".

    BTW - I got a Sonin MM for Christmas. It helps me get a grip on MC beyond "feel". The oak I am burning now was down for years, but just bucked/split about 18 mos ago. Outside tests to 13%, but split it again and the interior tests to 28%. Right on the ragged edge, and no puffing. I mix it with real dry maple and pine.

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  2. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    I guarantee the last tree we dropped across the road has at least 3 cords. Took me an hour and half to cut the notch. These were 3 big red oaks. 6.5 foot diameter by 150 ft tall. If I don't get 3 out of it, I'll eat my hat. :0 They were standing dead for 3 or 4 years. Very reason the backhoe was there to help. They were actually solid and should be enough wood for 2 years from now. I've been worried about them falling across the road, when I don't have time to cut them. So I closed the road down and we took care of 3 out of the 6. Life is good!

    I have a cheapy moisture tester, would love to have that Sonin you have. I intend on getting them cut and split soon but it's not a priority. 6 cords of ash, 6 cords of silver maple are lined up ahead of the oak. How about black locust? It dry out pretty fast? They took down the black locust at moms this weekend. It was 170 years old, same as the house. If it doesn't yield 4 cords, I'll be suprised. It's that big!

    Garn sat lonely by itself today, did manage to cut my holes and dry fit the air intake/flue. A quagmire to determine the assembly order. I'll get it after we go cut an Maple up for an older fella. He can't afford 700 bucks for the tree service to cut it down/up. My price is good, free. Can't stand the elderly being taken advantage of, plus I like your saying, I'm good for wood....but always looking for more!
  3. heaterman

    heaterman Minister of Fire

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    Intake tip.........

    We install the hood and reducer, cut a piece of 24 gauge galvanized stove pipe about an inch short, insert it and then use what is called a drawband to connect the two ends. A drawband sould be considered a "union" for stove pipe. After the drawband is in place we screw it and tape all the joints to eliminate any air leakage.
  4. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    Locust is reportedly another of the fantastic burning woods, heavy, dense, makes lots of heat, and is up on the top of most all the firewood value charts, but it has the downside of being another slow drying wood - figure it as being about the same as oak.

    Gooserider
  5. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Gooserider,

    My wood cutting friends are always crowing about hickory and locust. I've yet to burn anything, so I have nothing to judge any of the woods yet. Thanks for the clarification of the locust, it will be sorted into the 2 year class.

    Steve,

    The dry fit on my air intake is actually pretty solid. I went to the "tin man" and he cut a piece of 7" pipe for me. The outside intake hood slides about a foot inside it, of course the screws on the outside hold it all tight. I have to silicon the reducer on the inside of the garn, didn't want to cut the outside board to accomodate room to silicon on the outside. Is tape preferred over the silicon?

    I wasn't totally impressed with my flue, however. It says in the manual to screw it to the garn, but doesn't say about screwing the 2 ft piece to the next 2 ft piece. It also kinda rests on the wall thimble. It extends 20 inches beyond the building. Would be cool if they bolted together with a cevlar (sp) seal. Something stout. I do have the high temp silicon. I will get back at it tomorrow afternoon.

    Thanks
  6. heaterman

    heaterman Minister of Fire

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    Sounds good. You just want to get a seal with good integrity and stay that way.

    The vent pipe is twist lock as you know so you don't have to worry about it coming apart. If you want to seal up the joint permanently, put a good bead of the silicone in between the two. It's OK if it rests on the wall thimble and a little downward pitch is not a bad thing either. it keeps any condensation running out of the unit.
  7. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    I figured they stiftened up after they were twisted together. I didn't want to wear them so I haven't twisted them yet. It is angling downward, by about 10 degrees. Thanks for verifying what I'm seeing here. I will say it looks very nice and neat back in there.
  8. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    In reading this thread I've been wondering if in some of these aplications if you could save on some of the sizes of hx, pumps, and piping if you would use a 500gal propane tank for storage at the point of use. By putting the extra storage at the point of use you could use smaller pipe, pumps and if you welded in cross piping in the tank eliminate the hx as the tank would be the hx. If useing in a slab with antifreeze you could keep the tank hot and would have the btu's ready to be used. Insulating the tank would be easy.
    I would think a person could also maybe get by with a smaller garn as you would have more storage at the point of use. All of this could have a large savings on a big install and with these big installs It looks like you get into some big bucks. Used propane tanks are very cheap for storage when you can find them and make good storage. Welding in cross pipes for a hx would be very doable or you could put in a large flange and bolt in a hx inside. You could also maybe elliminate a mixing valve for radiaint applications as you could control the tank temp with an auquastat and have enough volume to run it.
    Just some thoughts I've had on these garn applications. I really do like them and can see so many places they should be used.
    leaddog
  9. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Leaddog,

    Glad you have been following along. I really wanted this body of work to be open to everyone, we all can learn something from each other. I really appreciate hearth.com and it's members.

    I hinted an idea similiar to yours in one of my previous posts. This makes alot of sense for my application in the barn/drying bins. This "stand by tank" can be kept at low temps when it's inactive down in the barn. I can maintain temp in transmission line from primary manifold to that stand-by tank for freeze protection. It probably wouldn't take long to heat it up, considering I got a 2000 gallon behemouth working upstream from it. Under what pressure's are these propane tanks at? Dad will need some convincing for him to allow me to put a pressurized tank in the barn. He brings up steam engines exploding every time we talk about it. I can buy used anhydrous ammonia tanks on a running gear cheap. I think they are 1500 gals. Maybe a bit oversized? A question about the hx aspect of the stand by tank. Since the garn water will be going through a coil in the standby tank, it acts like an hx since the two never touch?

    I cut my arm on the last piece of sheetmetal I handled. Blood all over the flue. I'm patched up and have something to think about as I wrap up the rear of the Garn. Got about a cord of silver maple bucked and transported home. I've had my fill of wood cutting and sheet metal too. Pics tonite for sure!
  10. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I know I've seen discussion of using anhydrous ammonia tanks in the past, not sure what pressure they are tested at, but thought they were only around 500 gallons - though that might depend on the tank. Propane tanks when used for propane are good for at least 200-250psi working pressure, and I think they are tested at 600psi or thereabouts - WAY more than a hydronic application... That said, I see no harm in putting a PRV on one, especially if there is ANY way that it could be isolated from the rest of the system - probably way overkill, but PRV's are pretty cheap...

    Hope your arm heals up soon, but remember to do a good job of cleaning up the leakage - blood can be quite corrosive and you don't want to damage the flue piping after it got a piece of you...

    Gooserider
  11. leaddog

    leaddog Minister of Fire

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    Your anhydrous tank is like a propane tank. Pressure tested at I think over 600psi. ALSO in your appication there wouldn't be the problem that they had with steem engines as you would never beable to input any temp over 212*. YOUr input temp is coming from the garn and as that is a open system you can't get over boiling. Steam engines blew because they had supperheated water under presure and had a sudden drop in pressure causeing the water to flash into steam. Just breaking off a fitting lowering the pressure rapidly when you have water temp at 260* and you will turn the water into instant steam and you will blow things,
    I think I would put in cross pipes in your tank with them manafolded at the ends to make your hx. by drilling holes in the ends and running the pipes through and welding in place, and welding into the manafold. Your garn water would go into the pipes heating the tank which you could then have as a closed system. You would need an expansion tank but could use a 100gal or so propane tank as I've shown in other threads.
    I don't know what kind of heat loads you are talking when drying beans but I think big, so no 1500gal isn't big at all and would help the garn keep up. I also don't know what kind of setup your drying bins are but you might just beable to incorporate the tank as part of the heat transfer instead of having to insulate it??????? If you are requiring a large load you won't be able to save on pipe or pump size in that application but if you would put one in your shop for the radiant floor you might. By being able to pump from the garn to a tank you wouldn't have to pump as many gpm as you would just pump longer and would satify your heat load from the tank and that wouldn't run constant therefore you would be recharging the tank. That would require smaller pumps, lines, valves, etc helping to keep cost down.
    leaddog
  12. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Gooserider, I managed to get the blood cleaned up and the flue installed. I had no idea blood can by corrosive, very interesting. I have to finish siliconing all the joints but it's pretty much done. I think a pressure relief valve is a good thing for anything under pressure.

    Leaddog, The tank radiating off heat for the drying bins might be a possibility. but would require some serious duct work. It might heat the closed in side of the shop, though. The PRV will satisfy my Dads concerns. I can't even guess how many btu/hour I'll need for this drying ap. It seems like light years away. I can visualize what you describe on the stand by tank. I'm up for anything to keep the piping cost down. I'd rather dump the cash into concrete and insulation. This is a project I'll be into right after I get phase one on it's feet.

    The only thing I don't like about my design is that I have 4 pumps, 3 zone valves and 3 out of the 4 are different types of pumps. This isn't a good thing. As it stands at this moment, it's the 43-44 on the primary. The 26-99 on secondary to hx and 26-99 from hx to house. Then the alpha on the house. Maybe I should toss the alpha and put another 26-99 in the house. Or toss the 26-99s and get 3 alphas. Alphas a little cheaper, too.

    I haven't found a good head calcutor I can get along with very well. Any good references for determining head/pump sizing? I have 80% of the piping done so the lengths and elbows are known.
  13. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I've heard the "blood as corrosive" thing from some of the firearm and other weapons enthusiast folks, especially in reference to anything made from steel... Makes sense to me, as with blood you have a salt solution with lots of other stuff in it that would tend to help penetrate any oils on the metal surface, etc...

    On the software stuff - Have you tried looking at the Taco "Flow-Pro" team site - they have some free download apps that are supposed to be pretty good at plotting out everything in your project (with the recommended Taco products of course...) Haven't tried them myself as they are "Windows only" and last time I tried, didn't want to run under WINE on my Linux box. The site looks like they want dealers to download the software, but they didn't do any validation other than making you fill out a contact info form...

    Gooserider
  14. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    I'll try out those Flow-Pros. Found a chart that should help determine the total head. I'm thinking I'm pretty close on my numbers. I'm going to rework them tonite.

    Here is the promised pics, a few days late.

    Attached Files:

  15. Jim K in PA

    Jim K in PA Minister of Fire

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    Looks good Reed. Please keep the bodily fluids out of the plumbing from now on, 'kay?

    I am going to suggest you put another 24" or so of 6" single wall flue pipe on the double wall before you put the elbow on. I ran mine last year like you have yours. I wound up with a fair amount of soot on the side of the GARN shed. Adding a 24" section keeps the discharge just far enough away to keep the soot off the wall. You only get particulates for the first 5 minutes, and then the last 15 minutes or so, but it's enough to soot up the wall if the outlet is too close.
  16. deerhntr

    deerhntr Member

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    I agree with Jim on the soot on the shed wall. Actually I was surprised of this result. But , my feeling is that going vertical is the better/cleaner solution. I have found I just do not like the ground level emissions. No matter how good the burn, there is still some ground level exhaust with the horizontal flue. After the season is over, I plan to go vertical. My wife wants to hang clothes out on the line without them coming in with the smell of a wood burner. If I had it to do over, I would have gotten the vertical flue package. I'm not real crazy about the fly ash blowing out into a 55gal drum either.

    Something to think about.

    Oh, BTW, I really like the Heaterman "Sweater". Very Clean looking!
  17. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    The picture may be a bit deceiving, Jim. They are 2, 2 foot sections. The second section sticks out over 20" from the wall. The pic makes it look like it's 4 or 5 inches. The garn manual said at least 18 inches and I have that by 2 inches. Not enough? You can see the 2nd section start right before it hits the wall thimble. (the fireproof silicon sticks out) I'm hoping I can keep my blood to myself, no guarantees!

    Russ I'm suprised you don't like the horizontal flue. I expect it will cost a pretty penny to have a vertical flue. Maybe you should look into a wood boiler clothes drier! lol. I do have fuel tanks down wind of my flue. I, too, may have to go vertical if the fly ash looks dangerous. I feel like buying the heaterman garn sweater was the best decision I made. It opened access to the Garn 360 degrees and prevented having to build the front wall. I love having the access, plus it looks very professional. Don't tell heaterman, but I would have probably paid more for it. haha :)

    Insured the Garn today. Insurance used this thread to see my set up. They were happy. Non pressurized was the key words they said cheapened the coverage so much. Insured 30k for 75 bucks a year! I celebrated by trying to burn the building down. Haha just kidding Mr. Adjuster. I also hired a hydronics designer to come up and help me order pumps, discuss the big barn and help do the switchover in the oil boiler room. I decided I needed someone physically here to go over the math with me.

    On a sad note, ThisWarmHouse office burned up recently. They sold this Garn to me and have also been helping me to great lengths during this process. I hold them in high regards and hope for their business speedy recovery.
  18. deerhntr

    deerhntr Member

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    Wow! That is some bad news. I also purchased my Garn through them. Hopefully, everyone is O.K., and they will be able to get back up and running soon.
  19. Jim K in PA

    Jim K in PA Minister of Fire

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    Ah. OK, then it may be fine. A lot depends on the wind pattern adn airflow around your building. My flue discharges on a wall that faces NNE, so when the Nor'easters start blowin', exhaust is pushed back against the wall. My discharge is about 36" from the walll now.

    I have so little fly ash actually leaving through the flue, it is hardly measurable. I'll take a pic of my drum and post it. I do get some incandescent ash and occasionally some glowing embers discharged into the drum, which is why it is needed. I think actually prefer having it horizontal, because nothing gets discharged onto a roof, nothing gets stuck in the flue, and it is very easy to access for cleaning.

    If it were available in 2008, I would have bought one too! Heck, I would have tested a prototype for Steve, and not even charged him . . . :lol:

    This is great to hear. I still need to do this. Been distracted, and draggin' my feet.

    Excellent! Having someone able to size things up in person is certainly worth the investment. You never know if these yahoos on the internet really know what they are talking about . . . :bug:

    OMG! I had not heard this. I'll give Mark a call. He did not need this, that's for sure.
  20. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Jim, I hope mine ends up like yours, very little fly ash. The predominent wind is W to E, so that is back towards the house. The flue faces the south. I guess if it turns the wall black, I don't really care. :eek: As long as there is no fire concern.

    I was dreading going to the insurance company, cause we all know the HATE they have for indoor wood boilers. I advised them of all the things I went against in the Garn Manual. The door connecting the Garn room, to the garage. The door next to the flue was another. And of course not building the front wall. They didn't care, said the fire-rated doors satisfied the door concerns. I explained how the Garn worked and they were happy. The old garage would cost a pretty penny to replace before the Garn, had to have the insurance. Get er in gear and get er done, Jim!

    I had an awful day yesterday. Oil boiler was down about 6 am. Spring broke in the fuel injection pump. Took me 3 or 4 hours to figure out the problem, had to take apart the fuel pump. Then drive 50 miles to get the right parts. It's been running for about 12 hours now. The ole sucker is becoming unreliable, justifies this Garn.

    I'm also slowly piecing the primary manifold together. I think I have to build the 1.5 side first, considering I don't have the pump for the 2 inch side. No idea what distance to allow. Got the mounting figured out, though. I'll have the weekend to screw around with it.

    You guys have given me enough information to be able to ask this guy the right questions. I'm forever indebted to you guys.
  21. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Jim, also, for some reason I can't pull up your link from your signature.
  22. Gooserider

    Gooserider Mod Emeritus

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    I'm having the same problem - the sig link gets me a 404 error -
    If I peel back to just the pennbrookfarm.com address, I get a raw webserver directory structure, sort of like an FTP site - looks like maybe something has happened to your server setup...

    As to the comments on ThisWarmHouse - I don't know what is happening with their meatspace location, but their website is up and looks normal - no obvious mention of having had a fire or any other issues - seems like they must either have a colocation on their webservice, or their office must not be to badly damaged... (Or both - hope they aren't badly damaged at any rate)

    Gooserider
  23. Jim K in PA

    Jim K in PA Minister of Fire

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    I checked with Mark, the fire was not in the storefront. It was in their "corporate" office a few miles away.

    My web host had a catastrophic failure of their server(s), and it has been down for a few days. If they do not get things up and running by Monday, I will have it hosted on another server.

    Thanks for the heads up and the sleuthing.
  24. RowCropRenegade

    RowCropRenegade Feeling the Heat

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    Jim, I was heading to look at your primary manifold, again. I'll check back on it monday. I'm one 18" piece of 1.5" pipe from being able to assemble the manifold. Couldn't go get it this morning, was too busy unburying the pickup. Was trying to get the bro (nurse) to the hospital at 6 am. 4x4 pickups become negated at 5 foot snow drifts. :eek:

    Electrician coming Monday, HVAC/hydronics dude on Tuesday. If primary pump arrives late in the week, I'll have a fire roaring by the weekend. That's my plan, sticking to it. Thinking I'm starting to get over the hump.
  25. Jim K in PA

    Jim K in PA Minister of Fire

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    If it's not up by Monday, I'll forward the pic to you directly.

    Keep pushing - all this prep work is necessary, and worthwhile.

    The storm just missed us. Got less than an inch. Gonna be cold for the next three nights though.
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