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  1. Redislespud

    Redislespud New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    I am looking at the Econobuner 200 model. I think that i can meet my needs with the 150 model but i am planning to have a thermal storage tank to extend the time between having to load the boiler. Is there any down side to over sizing the boiler if you have excess thermal capacity? Does anyone have any recommendations on what i should use for a storage tank? Im a newbe so any recommendations are much appreciated.

    W

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  2. salecker

    salecker Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Loc:
    Northern Canada
    Hi Redislespud
    Welcome to the site.
    I have the Econoburn 200.and 1000 gal of storage.I used two 500 gal propane tanks standing on end.
    Today we are at -20c and we will burn about 6 hrs of spruce.
    This is the first boiler system i have had,the boiler seems to work great,easy to operate my wife has no problems starting or tending the fire.
    We have the system in it's own building,no mess,no chance of fire or carbon monoxide in our home.
    Where are you located?I have a bunch of tanks.
    Thomas
  3. goosegunner

    goosegunner Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2009
    Messages:
    1,290
    Loc:
    WI
    Sizing and usefulness of storage depends on;

    Heat loss of your home at design temps and type of emitters that you will be heating with?

    I have a 200 with 1000 gallons of storage. I would say that would be the minimum I would want to connect to a 200.


    gg
  4. jebatty

    jebatty Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2008
    Messages:
    4,513
    Loc:
    Northern MN
    Generally, "no," but I think moderation applies here as to most things. My system is over-sized: 140,000 btuh boiler, 1000 gal pressurized storage, shop calculated heat loss = 35,000 btuh at -35F, highest measured heat loss so far = 18,000 btuh in a 24 hr period.

    Advantages: can charge storage from 120 to 190F in about 4-6 hours while also meeting demand and then meet demand from storage; need to burn every other day at the most, less often with mild outdoor temps; with a little care on loading (weighed wood burns makes this easy) boiler can burn full out and coast to fire out while bringing storage up to 190F and no idling.

    Disadvantages: need to carefully plan plumbing (pipe size, circ gpm, pump head, etc.) to insure that system can deliver maximum output from boiler to storage and/or system; requires larger pipe sizes $$$ than a smaller boiler; need sufficient storage (thermal capacity) to accept boiler output.

    If storage is intended to meet system demand between boiler firings, then you need to determine your heat loss btuh and size storage to be able to meet this demand during the times between firing your boiler. Example: if "normal" heat loss is 40,000 btuh and you want to fire once per day, then you need 40,000 x 24 = 960,000 btu available from the boiler/storage. Assume that your burn period is 4 hours, therefore boiler will meet demand for 4 hours and storage will need to meet demand for 20 hours. Needed btu's in storage at end of burn = 20 x 40,000 = 800,000.

    If you need 140F water to meet your system demand, and you can heat storage to 190F, then you need about 2000 gal of storage to meet demand solely from storage (2000 x 8.34 x 50 = 834,100). If your system require hotter water, needed storage will increase, and vice versa. If you want storage to meet demand for a longer period, the storage will increase, and vice versa.

    Incidentally, 800,000 btu's will require about 200 lbs of wood per burn (960,000 / 6,040 btu-lb / 0.8 efficiency). Efficiency will increase if the boiler/storage is in the space to be heated and efficiency may decrease if not. Btu's per lb of wood is based on 20% MC and 400F stack temp.
  5. Redislespud

    Redislespud New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    Thomas / All repys

    Well first of all i have to thank all for the quick and helpfull reply's. I live on PEI Canada. I am not sure of my heat loss in the home. It is very well built and consists of almost 100 % concrete and steel construction. I guess i will need to do some number crunching.

    So Thomas i take it that you need to sprayfoam the propane tanks? Are you willing to sell a couple of those extra tanks? How far are you from me?

    Wade


  6. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,249
    Loc:
    Nova Scotia
    Hello Red Islander :)

    There are all kinds of tanks in Moncton NB, if you can get there with a trailer. That's where I got mine:

    http://www.triprovince.com/Resale-Yard.page

    Scroll down & start planning. ==c

    I'm just building an insulated box around mine. It's a work in progress. I'm getting very little heat off the boiler itself in my basement, & since the basement doesn't have any radiation in it I'm planning to make a door in one end of the box so I can open it up some in winter & let some heat into the basement from the tanks. The door will double as access to the tank drains and tank-to-tank piping if I need to get to them. So my tanks are boiler storage & radiation all in one unit.

    EDIT: I did next to no number crunching. I just estimated how much storage to get from reading what everyone here is using, and balancing that with what would fit in my space. If arranged right, good sized storage is like a big forgiving bouncy cushion. With airbags.
  7. Redislespud

    Redislespud New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2012
    Messages:
    7
    I think I will only have room for 1000 gal tank. I have a friend that does sprayfoaming so i will most likely get him to insulate the tank. What else would be required to prepare the tank for use? Is there anything that i should look out for?

  8. salecker

    salecker Feeling the Heat

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2010
    Messages:
    347
    Loc:
    Northern Canada
    Hi Wade
    I'm at the other end of the country.I did have mine sprayfoamed.The guy that runs the nozle dictates the quality of the job.If i did it again i would attach something to judge how deep the foam is.I had a welder weld some extra fittings on them.
    I might add more storage in the future,it would be nice to get 24 hrs out of it.
    Thomas
  9. maple1

    maple1 Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2011
    Messages:
    4,249
    Loc:
    Nova Scotia
    Sprayfoaming is good stuff, not much doubt about that.

    But if there's any chance you might want to use some radiating heat from your tanks (like to keep your basement warm, or maybe wrap a bunch of pex around them to preheat your DHW), sprayfoaming will prevent that from happening. Just another consideration.
  10. wantstoburnwood

    wantstoburnwood Member

    Joined:
    Jul 16, 2008
    Messages:
    197
    Loc:
    pei
    hey welcome to the forum Wade
  11. dogwood

    dogwood Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 22, 2009
    Messages:
    634
    Loc:
    Western VA
    The above succinctly put information and example should be in a "sticky". After completing heat loss calculations, anybody contemplating storage could use this info to readily calculate the size storage they need, in conjunction with how many burns a day to plan for. With a little extra work, looking at US Weather Data and degree days for your area, you could probably estimate out how many pounds of wood you might need to put up to dry a year or two in advance for your first year of burning. That is, after converting pounds into cords for the types of wood you have locally.

    Nice work Jim.

    Mike
  12. Tennman

    Tennman Minister of Fire

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2009
    Messages:
    719
    Loc:
    Southern Tenn
    I totally agree dogwood. JB your post would make such a simple and useful spreadsheet for the next guy who asks this question. Making that spreadsheet is easy, but I don't know how you place it so you can download it from Hearth or a sticky. Good stuff JB.

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