to store or not to store

[infinitymike]

I am brand new at this gig.
I am sick of dropping anywhere from $3500 to $5000 a year on oil.
And I live on Long Island, NY Not that cold here.
I have a 1951 "L" shaped ranch about 1800 sq ft.
In the 70's the previous owner put a 2nd floor addition with 2 bedrooms and bathroom.
Originally there was no insulation in the walls.
Again in the 70's they blew some type of tannish powdery material in the walls.
Some of the house has continuous baseboard radiation and some has the original in the wall baseboard radiation (4 inch wide x 36 inches long baseboard radiation with a big 36"x36" metal cover)

Any way I really don't know which way to go.

I definitely want a gasification boiler.

I am going to leave my oil pig in place as a back up.
I dont have any storage for DHW with the oil.

I'm concerned of the climate here.
Its not that cold all the time. I start heating (very moderately) in late Oct early Nov
and go to about late april (again very moderately)
The boiler is running almost non-stop from dec to march.
it runs all summer and fall for DHW.

My concern is the fall spring and summer.
Will I do better with a storage system so I only need to burn once a day or every couple days.
Or will the wood gun do as they say it will and "turn on and off" burning the same amount of wood as a storage system will.

I am leaning towards the Wood Gun by alternative heat.
They say they don't require any storage for heat but they do for DHW.
I like the on/off feature.

The Wood Gun e100 in stainless is about $8,000 no storage required.
The Tarm solo plus 30 is about $8,000 storage is required and I haven't priced that out yet.
The Eko 25 is about $5,700 not to sure on the need for storage but will be an obvious cost.
The Bio MAss 25 is about $6,300 same as thing with the storage.
Seems to me that I can start out with a wood gun and no storage for 8k or get another brand with storage and spend the same or more.
Ultimately if I do go for the Gun I could always add storage later and hopefully not spend that much more then if i had gone the other way.

Maybe I'm micro managing and just need to go for it.

I know of no one who has a system like this locally and am looking for some opinions and experience.

please help

 

[henfruit]

Have you at the vigas line of wood boilers? They all come with lambda controls and are priced less then a wood gun and offer more btus.

 

[infinitymike]

I think so.
i have to look in my folder.
I know I heard of them and heard of the lambda controls.
What exactly is the lambda controls and benefits of it?

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

Required or not you'll want storage, especially in your relatively warm climate. Do some research, it's a matter of convenience and boiler longevity.

 

[Clarkbug]

FYI, the Tarm Solo Plus doesnt require storage, but the Solo Innova does.

I looked at those options, and I think the biggest difference is the placement of the fan. The Solo Plus has a pressurization fan, while the Solo Innova has a suction fan. The idea with that the on/off control you could get some creosote buildup that could potentially break a fan on the suction side.

Lamba controls incorporate a feedback loop into the boiler controls. The dumb version (thats the only one I know) is that it uses an oxygen sensor in the stovepipe to measure how much residual oxygen is left from the burn. It adjusts your incoming air dampers continuously to always optimize the burn. Most boilers have to pick a setting thats "pretty good" to cover the conditions all through a normal burn. So Lambda saves wood and is more efficient in the long run, but costs money up front.

I agree with Reggie that storage is a good idea if you can swing it. If you read more here on the forums, most people agree, just because of the boosted efficiency and less need to tend your boiler.

The dealer I looked at for the Tarm has had a Solo Plus 30 at his house for years and likes the on/off feature. The trick is knowing how much wood to load relative to the weather conditions.

Good luck with whatever you go with!

 

[infinitymike]

when you say its about convenience and boiler longevity what do you mean?

 

[woodsmaster]

The biomass also dosn't require storage.

 

[henfruit]

The vigas with lambda is no more money than a wood gun. The model 40 is rated at 136,00 btu out and the cost is 6,950.00.Take the the time and make a call to Mark it will worth your time. 607 435 4753 cell. Good luck

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

Having storage is convenient because you can store BTU's for later use, meaning you will still have heat after the boiler goes out. Even when it's below zero I only have 1 fire a day. Depending on outside temp I alter the length of the fire to get my storage up to temp, then let the boiler go out. This gives me enough stored BTU's to get through until the next day. In the fall and spring I can go two days without a fire sometimes.

As far as boiler longevity storage ensures that your boiler will not idle, which can cause condensation and shorten boiler life.

My advice is to type "storage" into the search function and do some reading.

 

[stee6043]

The decision of whether or not you "need" storage really has absolutely nothing to do with the boiler. A wood burning boiler creates hot water. They all do. Does the boiler really care what happens to the hot water after it leaves the boiler? Me thinks not.

Convenience is typically benefit number one for thermal storage. Efficiency is likely number two, but this may actually be a draw. A PROPERLY sized and PROPERLY operated boiler should as efficient as, or very close to, an oversized boiler with thermal storage. It's worth noting that the term "properly" would mean running it in such that greatly limits idling. Relative boiler efficiency (for comparison purposes of the same model) really is a function of how long you can keep the boiler burning in it's sweet spot (ie. no idling). I'd agree that storage "can" have an impact on boiler longevity only to the extent that it will limit idling in an oversized boiler setup. Limiting idling limits junk in the HX tubes as well as the chimney as stated above already.

Just me two cents. Your mileage may vary. None of this applies quite the same to a non-gasser...

 

[Chris Hoskin]

just wanted to confirm that the Solo Plus does not require thermal storage tanks. Also to say that I agree with others that given your climate and relatively small heat load, unless you want to limit your wood boiler operation to Dec, Jan, Feb, that you should include storage (at least eventually). Excess idling creates excess creosote build-up in the boiler and the boiler rots out prematurely. The other option worth considering in your case InfinityMike, is a woodstove.

 

[Fred61]

A few things (questions) come to mind as I read your post. First is that if you are burning $5000.00 worth of oil, a Wood Gun e100 probably would not be large enough to carry the load. Second, don't think of a wood boiler cycling on and off if going to be like your oil boiler cycling. Although the Wood Gun probably has the most positive "shut down" of any boilers I have seen, you will have a smoldering, dirty fire going on and under light load like DHW for summer it will probably fail to self re-ignite. All that idling results in a dirty, inefficient boiler. Wood is wasted on every re-light before the fire reaches a "usable" temperature. Third thought is that if you are going to run a Wood Gun in the summer and it is in your basement or other area within the living area, be prepared to spend more on cooling you house. My experience revealed that the Wood Gun has more un-insulated surfaces than any wood boiler I've inspected. Although I would recommend storage, I want to warn you that no matter how well the tank is insulated, it will also add to the cooling load and we all know there is not a bigger energy hog than an air conditioner. If you don't cool, be prepared to be uncomfortable.

Under the right conditions, any wood boiler can be run without storage but "conditions" are a moving target. In your coldest months your boiler could be running full bore and burn clean and efficiently as long as you are there supplying it with wood but during the shoulder seasons it could cycle numerous times causing it to burn dirty and inefficiently.

 

[ohbie1]

Storage is especially great in moderate cold like 30,40,50 degrees, which you have a lot of. You run your boiler at peak efficiency, no on and off, just a nice straight efficient burn. When the house needs heat, it is supplied by the running boiler. When the house doesn't need heat, the heat is sent to storage for later use when the boiler has completed the burn and is out. You don't have any worry about too big a load of wood in the boiler for the house's demand. It gets real easy to run this way after a month or two of experience.

 

[infinitymike]

Thanks to all of you guys and all of all your information.

With all due respect everything that has been said is everything
that has been said and I have read over the past year.

All great information.

Its funny that after a year of reading blogs, talking to different dealers and racking my brain that I join this blog and make one post and then before I get any more input, go and plunk a deposit on the Wood Gun.

So now you all will be part of my experience in getting hooked up and learning how to run it efficiently.

the biggest selling point of the wood gun is that the Stainless Steel option, which I went for, along with the DHW coil installed.
I also like the fact that it takes 27" logs and has the biggest chamber I've seen with 6.5cubic feet.

So bottom line, its costing me $8,800.00 delivered to my house.

For this first season I am getting 5 cords of 24" seasoned splits, delivered and stacked for a $1,000.00
I'm sure some of you guys thinks that a lot of dough but thats Long Island for ya.
But I've already started my collection of FREE tree drops from the guys I know and am hopeful to have enough for next season.
And real hopeful with hurricane Irene that there will be even more free wood out there.

I am putting it in an attached garage.

i will probably use oil to heat the DHW in summer and fall or maybe I'll get storage next year.

As I always say " more will be revealed" and "everything is subject to revision"

thanks guys

 

[flyingcow]

Good Luck with it. Are you building a boiler room in your garage? Some ins companies and local codes have certain rules about that.

 

[Fred61]

Its funny that after a year of reading blogs, talking to different dealers and racking my brain that I join this blog and make one post and then before I get any more input, go and plunk a deposit on the Wood Gun.

That's great! Now you won't be able to blame us if things don't work out :exclaim:

Keep us up to date on your progress. And don't forget the pictures. Good luck!

 

[muncybob]

Good luck with the boiler. Heating with wood is a different way of life 4 sure, but we have absolutely no regrets going with wood. We opted to install an electric hot water heater for the summer months. It costs us less to do this than use the old oil boiler(which was removed). As you mentioned, you can always install storage later...just plan for it when installing the Wood Gun. We will be going into our third heating season and while there are times(mid autumn or late spring) that I wish we had storage I doubt that we will install it due to the costs and space available. Going SS was a good move. I was also told to install SS pipe from boiler to chimney. We installed SS liner in our chimney too.

Wood heating has some upfront costs but it will pay you back in the long run. $200/cord for c/s/s of actually seasoned wood where you live is a decent deal.

 

[infinitymike]

Good luck with the boiler. Heating with wood is a different way of life 4 sure, but we have absolutely no regrets going with wood. We opted to install an electric hot water heater for the summer months. It costs us less to do this than use the old oil boiler(which was removed). As you mentioned, you can always install storage later...just plan for it when installing the Wood Gun. We will be going into our third heating season and while there are times(mid autumn or late spring) that I wish we had storage I doubt that we will install it due to the costs and space available. Going SS was a good move. I was also told to install SS pipe from boiler to chimney. We installed SS liner in our chimney too.

Wood heating has some upfront costs but it will pay you back in the long run. $200/cord for c/s/s of actually seasoned wood where you live is a decent deal.

thanks muncy,

I look forward to the change with anticipation and anxiety.... change always brings discomfort until the change has become a way of life.
I think it will be interesting.
I've always been a bit of a rebel....going against the standard.


This is just one more way of breaking free from the control of the world.

 

[Duetech]

I ran an EKO40 during the summer for DHW using partial loads and just shut the boiler off when things got up to temp. There was always wood left in the primary chamber. Re-light was easy and got up to gassing quite quickly as the boiler was still very warm if not hot. The boiler was its own form of mini storage via its internal water and firebrick. The hot water loop to the DHW had a separate circ. I fired in the evening and shut down. A suggestion here is to use an electric hot water heater as they are not vented for escaping gasses and tend to hold heat longer. My hot water heater is still propane and I would have to heat (fire) sooner as temps began to drop.