Unhappy with my pellet stove!

[Carrie]

Hi all, this is my first post and I am in desperate need of some advice! I'm in the Cincinnati Ohio area and purchased a free standing pellet stove (Country) last October in hopes of reducing the natural gas bill. We've had problems with the stove from day one, vacuum failures cause the stove to shut down, poor heat output, and high pellet comsumption rate. Our experience with the service provided by the retailer we purchased the stove from has been horrible, the service man either doesn't show up and we cannot get a straight answer from them. I've contacted Country who refers us back to the retailer. This is where I need some advice.

My first question is just how much heat should the stove put out? Although my house is 2,300 sq ft (yes one of those old money pits) I'm only expecting to heat my first floor which is about 700 sq ft. It's an open floor plan with two rooms about 16x16 connected by pocket doors which allow the heat to circulate, a large opening into my entry way and a kitchen. The two rooms and the kitchen all have ceiling fans. The stove doesn't even heat the room it's in, on the chilliest nights sitting right next to the stove you need to wear a sweat shirt and sweat pants to be comfortable. My house is masonry, we use the plastic on our windows and have storm windows. The thermostat located right outside the doorway to the room the stove is in maybe reads an inside temp of 53 degrees when it's 20 outside. When we were looking at stoves the retailer said this stove would handle our situation fine, in fact "would run us out" on high, the heat would even circulate up to our third floor. Well, we have a $300 gas insert on the second floor and it heats much better than the pellet stove. The floor plan is basically the same on the second floor as the first, no pocket doors though. When I question the dealer about it they blame it on the quality of pellets. We were burning Lignetics. I told him if the stove specifics were based on some holy grail of pellets then it's misleading Do you believe this issue is pellet related? Here's the rating for our stove: On Max 39,500 BTU's (4.7 lbs/hr), heating capacity 900-2000 sq. ft. The stove is the Winslow PS40.

Other problems have been the huge cupcake size clinkers, forward flame which blackens the glass door, the vacuum failures which now they think is a switch, and we are burning a 60 hopper of pellets in about 5 hours on high. I have to empty the ash drawer every day, clean the ash cup sometimes twice a night.

I just can't believe all this is pellet related, excluding the vacuum switch problem. I can't get a straight answer out of my dealer. I'm at wits end and turning to you. HELP.
Thank you kindly.

 

[begreen]

Not the pellets, Lignetics makes good fuel. It sounds like the feed rate is set way too high. The stove is specced to burn 4.7 lbs /hr. at max output and you say it was burning 12 lbs / hr.! That would certainly explain the blackened glass and huge clinkers. Feeding more fuel is not going to make it burn hotter, actually, it would probably make it burn cooler and definitely dirtier. Reduce the feed rate until there is a bright yellow-white flame, about 4-6" above the edge of the burn pot. If the flames are orange and somewhat lazy, that's too many pellets.

Try the dollar bill test to see how snugly the door gaskets are sealing. That could cause the vacuum failure as well. If you can close the door on a dollar bill and then easily pull out the dollar bill (no resistance) then the door latches may need adjustment. Also check the hose to the vacuum switch to be sure if has no cuts and is on the switch's barb completely so that no leakage is occuring there.

 

[Carrie]

Thanks for your quick reply BeGreen. I noticed the burn rate in the owners manual too, but alas according to the service man it's the pellets, those too are causing my house to turn black etc. etc. Yesterday was the first time we could get the guy to come out since last Christmas, the stove would shut off which made for wonderful mornings where I could see my breath on the first floor when I went down to make coffee. When they come to service the stove they just hook up some computer which gives them readings, he keeps saying the auger rate is fine.... UGH. He's supposed to come back out tomorrow evening so your reply is helpful and in time!!
THank you again.

 

[HarryBack]

Carrie: ITS NOT THE PELLETS!
My disclaimer here is that i dont sell these units, so I can only answer from experience with other units, but I'll try.

Now, 12 lbs/hr is a huge rate, especially when the stove is only rated at abt 40,000 btu/hr. Obviously we are getting poor/incomplete combustion. First thing that comes to mind is a mechanical failure of the regulation system (circuitboard or tstat). I also wonder about a constriction somewhere causing the stove not to burn efficiently, therefore not throwing alot of heat, therefore trying to burn more pellets to "get up to temperature". Is the house really tight, airwise as well? Im leaning on a faulty unit here. If you paid by credit card you have an avenue there. Let the service guy look at it. If he still maintains its the pellets, I would pursue other means. You should definitely feel huge heat burning at that rate...well, as huge as a small output stove can offer.

 

[webbie]

5 lbs an hour should give you enough heat to really do some business. Sounds like there are problems with your electronics as Harryback says.

You may have to step the complaining up a couple notches to get heard by the dealer and country. It is fairly typical for dealers and stove companies to dismiss problems thinking "they will take care of themselves" - which they often do with wood stoves. But you have invested a lot of money and should get satisfaction.

 

[richg]

This is nuts....no way no how never is it the pellets. Sometimes you have to take the gloves off, and if it were me, that point has been reached. Draft a small claims complaint naming the dealer and manufacturer, and include counts for compensatory and punitive damages for fraud; give them five business days after receipt to fix the problem, and if they don't, file the complaint. I can give you a draft lawsuit that will scare the bleep out of them. They will both realize that 1. there is a problem with the stove and they have to own up to it, and 2. it would be far more expensive to try and litigate the case than to make good with you. Not trying to come across as a litigious person, but sometimes it's the only thing that will get results. My suggestion would be to get rid of the country stove and get a Harman P61A. Not the prettiest stove out there, but you want heat? That thing will heat your house and your neighbor's.

 

[begreen]

Thanks for your quick reply BeGreen. I noticed the burn rate in the owners manual too, but alas according to the service man it's the pellets, those too are causing my house to turn black etc. etc. Yesterday was the first time we could get the guy to come out since last Christmas, the stove would shut off which made for wonderful mornings where I could see my breath on the first floor when I went down to make coffee. When they come to service the stove they just hook up some computer which gives them readings, he keeps saying the auger rate is fine.... UGH. He's supposed to come back out tomorrow evening so your reply is helpful and in time!!
THank you again.

I rarely say this, but the service tech in this case seems to be way over his head. Unfortunately I can't find the manual for this stove online. But the stove design looks really similar to the Quadrafire. What does your manual say regarding feed rate adjustment? Is there a rod in the hopper that has a wing nut on it to control the feed rate of the auger? If yes, mark the current position with pencil, then try making a significant change (maybe 1/2" move) towards reducing the amount of pellets being fed into the stove. And don't forget to tighten the wingnut after making the adjustment. Then watch it burn. If you adjust it too far, the flames will be very short and the stove may shut itself off because there isn't enough flame hitting the thermocouple (flame sensor). In that case, split the difference between the old setting and the new setting.

If you have a chance, visit a stove shop that sells and demonstrates Quadrafire or Country pellet stoves to see how they really should be burning when all is setup right. That will give you a visual cue. And take this matter up with your store's manager, this is pretty incompetent. If no satisfaction take it up with Country Stoves. They shouldn't have techs like this servicing their units. It will give them a bad name. I just noticed they are built about 20 miles away from me. If you make no progress, let me know, I'd be willing to try and contact the manufacturer if all else fails.

 

[Carrie]

Thanks for all your advice and support for being more ahem... assertive, I've tried to be nice since the retailer owns a business about a half block down from my own, but this is ridiculous. I'm not sure how long my warranty is I would have to read it, but I am approaching a year and my fear is they could legally back out of doing anything if it goes on much longer. HarryBack I know our house isn't airtight, it's almost 100 years old and still has the old single pane double hung windows. I did take the sashes out and reglazed the glass and weather stripped them, fixed the weights and pulleys, it's not a wind tunnel by any means, but not air tight either. When the service man came out Wednesday he brought a new door, unhooked the stove pipe and ran a brush thru it, disconnected the vacuum switch and blew the hose out. The stove immediately shut down when started. He put a new vacuum switch in and the same problem is happening. So, now tonight he is supposed to bring a board from one of his floor model stoves to see if that is the ticket and if it is order a new one of those.

Even if they can get the stove to run properly will this model give me the heat I'm looking for? Looks really don't matter to me, I want the heat output. Sadly I trusted the dealer on what the stove was capable of doing. RichG, I would very much appreciate a copy of the draft you spoke of. Tonight I plan on taking the gloves off so to speak, I'm tired of the no shows, the hour late for appointments without calling, the blaming, all the vague variables as excuses. I will let you all know how it goes. Thanks so much.

 

[begreen]

Sadly, I don't think this is the stove, it really sounds like the technician is guessing and throwing parts at the problem. A simple continuity check would indicate whether the vac switch was at fault. Temporarily it could be jumpered out to test the stove.

Stand your ground and let us know what the response is.

PS: Immediately start getting everything in writing. Send a letter to the dealer with a copy to Country Stoves that details and itemizes your history with the stove and complaints. Be sure to keep copies of all corespondence. If the dealer calls you, write down date and time and document a summary of the conversation.

 

[Carrie]

Hi BeGreen, yes I agree with the tech being in over his head, unfortunately the tech is the owner! Seems like he can't figure anything out unless he is on the phone with Country asking "Okay, what do I do next?". The other day when he got here he ended up sitting around my house for 2 hours because Country is on Pacific Time and we are Eastern.... so he had to wait until someone got there!! Every thing on this stove is computerized, I don't even know if it's possible to make manual adjustments or if it has to be adjusted by that small computer they attach to the circuit board. I know there is nothing in the hopper that you can turn or adjust. I've spoken with Country about my situation but they asked me to try again with the dealer and try to get satisfaction thru them, I feel that they don't want to get involved on that level. Maybe a personal visit by BeGreen would be the ticket!! I may just take you up on that!

 

[begreen]

Oh boy, document everything. How was the stove burning last year? Has it ever burned correctly? (bright yellow flame and pellet consumption of about a bag/day)

 

[Carrie]

No BeGreen the stove has never burned right. Many vacuum failures where the stove would just shut down, used as many pellets then as now, huge clinker problem, alot of black residue. At least last year we could get the stove to run after many restarts, this year though as soon as the auger turns the red light comes on as a vacuum failure. We have yet to get it hot enough for the blower to even kick on. We kept calling last year for him to come out, he came out once before Christmas, ( it was an October install), said he would come back. Then he would call when he was "in the area", well we both work so of course we weren't home. Then his store help quit so he didn't have showroom hours and wouldn't return calls. Now of course he blames everything on his employee who quit, saying he wasn't getting our messages. He tried jumping it, hooking wires up to different places in the stove but was unsuccessful, said there wasn't enough room to get his hands in the stove, thus tonights trip with the dag gone circuit board.

 

[begreen]

Sounds like he should just bring out the whole working floor model stove and swap you out. Best of luck. I hope the control panel cures what ails this stove.

 

[HarryBack]

wow- I feel for you, Carrie. Even an owner can get in over his/her head tho. Tell them you want the floor model, or another brand...yea, P61a is a heat monster, but I can imagine your malaise given what youve been through.
Small claims...you wont get compensatory and punitive damages for fraud, since that cant be done in small claims. Also check the small claims limits as well, you are likely above them.
Do something, tho. I agree with Craig in that its likely the machine itself, 12 lbs/hr! wow! Thats over 100,000 btu/hr, likely more, thru a 40,000 btu/hr stove!

 

[begreen]

I'm guessing she was only getting a third of the heat out. When a pellet stove of this style is overfed it seems to burn much cooler. Lazy orange flames and efficiency plummets. I think those btus went up in smoke.

 

[GVA]

Carrie: it's the pellets... No just kidding %-P
I'm surprised no one has brought up the setup such as venting... What is your vent setup like?
It's hard to imagine the vacuum switch repeatedly failing like that.. In order for this to close you would need a certain draft to create vacuum correct guys?
here's I guess what I'm trying to say the tech comes out and the vac switch isn't closing.. He jumps it out and the stove works better he then replaces the vacuum switch with a new one and then leaves... I don't even know if there is a draft test port on these the others can help you on this but I'm just making a suggestion maybe a bit more ammo to question him with when he comes over again.
He allready replaced the door so he may be on to something but just not looking in the right area.....
How do the pellets look that have been burn't? are they ash or more like char?
That's alot of heat that should have been blown into the room with that unit. 700 square feet? that stove should be like the sun with that burn rate it's definitely stove or flue related as well as the technician that's trying to figure it out.
Finally where are you? I don't think be green will be coming over from washington :cheese:

 

[Carrie]

Here we go with the update....

GVA, Mean Green aka BeGreen was going straight to the top, as my own personal not so goodwill ambassador to the Country Mfr. in Washington hehe. Oh and pellet's schmellets.... Mean Green will pay you a visit too After he replaced the vacuum switch the stove wouldn't work at all, went right to the blinking red light. The burnt pellets that form clinkers are heavy and stuck together like a lava rock, no kidding I sometimes have to dig them out with a metal spoon. What is in the ash drawer is not ashy and light, powdery maybe but more coarse.

Okay here's the scoop. The owner/serviceman called me this morning and said he is frustrated with the problem and could come out and mess around some more with the stove but instead called Country and told them to ship a brand new replacement unit. This new goodie should be here next week, and he would be out to install it, then he qualified that with...."as long as my helper is back". Do I expect him next week? No. I strongly emphasized my potential displeasure if next weeks install falls through, reminded him that cold weather is predicted and I do NOT want to turn on my furnace. I reminded him that a year is approaching and do not want to be left with my hand on a certain part of my anatomy if that warranty expires and I have a stove that doesn't work. Told you the gloves were coming off! I asked him straight out, when this new stove is installed will it heat at least my first floor to a comfortable temperature, with any pellet because if not I don't want it. He said absolutley the unit should heat my first floor and more when the unit is running properly. You all are going to love this part.... I told him that I had spoken with several stove dealers who all claimed that Lignetics were decent pellets and would not be responsible for the problems I'm experiencing. He said that whomever I spoke too was "merely "ignorant, and knew not what they spoke of", that anybody that knows about stoves knows Lignetics are the worst pellets to burn in your stove. I knew you would get a laugh out of that one.

I would have to run down and take a look at the venting, if remembering rightly it's two 45's then straight out then a 45 up with about 3 feet of straight pipe, then something on the very end. I can check but I remember throwing a hissy fit when he wanted to drill the hole thru my refinished baseboard. Really I am easy to get along with, just might not sound that way HAHA.

Opinions? Where do we send Mean Green first??

 

[GVA]

What pellets does mr stove dealer recommend? He He He :lol:

 

[Carrie]

Of course Mr. Stove Dealer says buy MY DAD's pellets.... Dad is also a stove dealer. He had 4 different kinds of pellets one was Hammer's Hot Ones, and I cannot remember what the other three varieties were. Heeee HAW

 

[begreen]

Carrie, you are documenting this correct? You are going to send a copy of your expectations to the dealer and cc to Country, correct? You really want a paper trail here. When you write this letter make it clear that you expect to have the stove installed on schedule regardless of whether said helper is available. You are correct is asserting that you should not be held hostage by his labor problems. Keep it polite and business-like, but firm. Don't put anything in this letter you wouldn't want to be read in front of Judge Judy on CourtTV.

Have you called Country to discuss this problem with them? They sound responsive and 3nickels got right through to them (in another current thread). You might feel better if they confirmed that the dealer was indeed having a new stove sent out. I would mention the opinions expressed by the dealer re. Lignetics pellets. They are a respected brand and Country should be familiar with them. I burned them for 2.5 years and they were very consistent in quality.

 

[webbie]

One comment on the expectations part - A new and properly functioning stove should put out plenty of heat - measured ONLY in BTU's. They do not measure heating capability in "floors" or in "expectations". If the stove burns 5 pounds of pellets properly per hour, that should be a solid 30,000 BTU - which would heat most entire homes in a temperate climate.

The exact heat loss of any particular home is a calculation that is beyond the capability of most dealers.

You can determine for yourself what the stove will do by using your furnace and checking, for instance:
1. The BTU output
2. Approx. how long out of each hour it runs.

Example: 100,000 BTU furnace, 80% efficient - 80,000 output. If it runs 30 minutes out of each hour, that is 40,000 BTU delivered to the house. If that does the job in cold weather, you can be assurred that 20-30 will do a floor or more, especially since zone (space) heat is usually more efficient at delivery than central heat.

 

[richg]

Of course Mr. Stove Dealer says buy MY DAD's pellets.... Dad is also a stove dealer. He had 4 different kinds of pellets one was Hammer's Hot Ones, and I cannot remember what the other three varieties were. Heeee HAW

Oh that's just nuts. I had the misfortune to have bought four tons of Hamers Hot Ones a few years ago. They were a disaster; the pellets were HUGE, and I measured one at 2.5 inches long. They were bridging over the feed intake in my Quad stove, causing it to shut down. Bags were loaded with fines. I spoke with Laurie Hamer to voice a concern about this, and she said they would have 15 bags of free pellets delivered to my house. I'm still waiting.

One way you could put the dealer in absolute checkmate is to buy two bags of Hamer pellets and photograph the results. Game, set match....

 

[HarryBack]

even though I still think its the stove, Im wondering about those clinkers you mentioned. Hard clinkers are usually a result of elevated salt levels in the product. At certain threshold concentrations of salts, the fusion temperature of the silica can be significantly lowered to the point that the fuse together and form very hard, brittle, glass-like clinkers which wont clear out of the burnpot...even bottomfeed pots. Yea, try a bag of different pellets and see what happens. Lignetics has a good name, and if they were having problems this year, I think we would have heard more about it here. But just to satisy the dealer, go somehwere else, buy a couple bags, see what happens.

 

[F350R]

I also think its the stove I just bought one this week took it home pre fired it out by the garage to cure the paint then moved it inside connected it to the new pipes plugged it in and fired it back up. I have used it roughy five hours and haven't burnt a half bag yet the ash is a fine white fly ash with nothing left in the fire pot. Except when lighting it there is never any smoke or build up on the glass. Where I bought it they said theirs had been running for about two weeks without being cleaned, I tend to belive that considering the amount of ash in the stove and the glass was still clean. Mine puts out more heat on low that the Mt Vernon I sold would put out on medium. But like was mentioned try a couple bags of a different brand then have them swap out the whole stove for one that works.

When I did my pre burn outside it took a while to get the feed auger filled I opened the door to put a hand full of pellets in the pot to keep it burning a couple of times. As soon as the door was opened the stove would shut down and throw a code on the LED. You may have a vacume problem even though the switches have been replaced but a this point I am still in favor of having it wapped for one that works corectly out of the box without having to be repaired.

 

[Carrie]

We've only burned two brands of pellets in the stove, the Lignetics and Ozark something, can't remember but we got them at Home Depot. Had the same problems with both brands. At least last year we could get the stove to burn in spite of all the trouble. This year since the service man has been tweaking the draft and replacing the vacuum switch it won't even start. I will try another brand of pellets, something other than Hamer's.

F35OR, your post gives me some hope! I was having to clean the stove once or twice a day, the glass would get so black just burning it in the evening that you couldn't see the fire. We tried burning corn 50/50 last season, the corn did seem to burn hotter and I liked the smell of it but it made our clinker situation worse. We've since found out we need a different burn cup for the corn. The guy who owns the feed store where I bought the corn was telling me his corn burning customers swear by putting a handful of oyster shells in the hopper and mixing it in, they say it keeps the corn from sticking together when it burns and making clinkers. I've never tried it, has anyone else heard or tried that? Keep me updated on how your stove is working, please. I've been wondering if this model stove is too computerized, don't know if you can make adjustments yourself or if it has to be done thru the computer board.