Water Softener Advice

[walhondingnashua]

For the 3rd time now in a few years I have had to change the electric heating elements in my water heater. I have well water and a sediment filter, but that doesn't help much with the hard water. I think it's time for a softener. I think I am going to do it myself but I need some advice on what to get.

I am looking at an AO Smith system that is just one unit. I am not sure though about the grains or even if I am getting in over my head. I can do basic plumbing and plan on just using PEX connections so no sweating pipe. Is 35,000 grains enough for 3 people?

 

[Dan Freeman]

It may not be just the hard water; it may also be the acidity of your water. They are 2 different issues. I have a well and I have 2 Lancaster tanks. They service the water for the whole house. One water softener and one for pH. Before I got them, I had problems like you, but I was also getting pin-hole leaks at the solder joints in my copper pipes because of the acidic nature of my well water. Have you had you well water tested? That's the best place to start so you buy the best filter(s) for your situation.

 

[walhondingnashua]

It was tested when we finished the houses water system up. There wasn't a big issue with acidity, but we do have a lot of mineral deposits. I regret not thinking about it when we built the house and should have just had one installed then.

 

[Dan Freeman]

How long ago was that? You said you have changed the heating element 3x in a few years. Well water hardness/Ph can change depending on a lot of factors. I would still have a professional evaluate the situation. You don't have to pay them to do the work if you are able to do it yourself, but you want to make sure you are installing a system that will mitigate the problem, or your $$$, time and effort may not solve the problem.

 

[Bad LP]

I would retest first.

 

[bigealta]

Yup water test, different media for different problems.

 

[walhondingnashua]

I know I at least have hard water. The elements are covered in deposits and one of them is usually blown. I know rust is an issue because we use a lot of iron out. All of the fixtures in our house need cleaned with vinegar or or CLR. The pH is something I have not tested but can do that myself. What is a good pH range for well water?

 

[Dan Freeman]

From the internet:
"The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) does not regulate the pH level in drinking water. It is classified as a secondary drinking water contaminant whose impact is considered aesthetic. However, the EPA recommends that public water systems maintain pH levels of between 6.5 and 8.5, a good guide for individual well owners."

Interesting that they call the pH a secondary contaminant whose impact is considered aesthetic. My low pH (around 4) was creating non-aesthetic problems to my copper pipe joints! LOL

 

[EbS-P]

How would a heatpump hot water handle hard water? My 80 almost never needs the elements turned on.

 

[bigealta]

I know I at least have hard water. The elements are covered in deposits and one of them is usually blown. I know rust is an issue because we use a lot of iron out. All of the fixtures in our house need cleaned with vinegar or or CLR. The pH is something I have not tested but can do that myself. What is a good pH range for well water?

Try barkeepers friend for rust stains. I tired everything on the planet on my rental house fiberglass bathtub and toilet and kitchen sink. Barkeepers friend was the only thing that worked well. It's made with oxalic acid and that's the key ingredient. Think they get it from rhubarb.
That iron out is rough stuff.

Also never use bleach as it sets the rust stains.

 

[Dan Freeman]

In addition to the 2 Lancaster tanks I have, I put an inline iron filer too. No rust anymore. Better to stop the problem at the source than having to find cleaners to clean the problem in the sinks, tub, and toilet.

 

[bigealta]

In addition to the 2 Lancaster tanks I have, I put an inline iron filer too. No rust anymore. Better to stop the problem at the source than having to find cleaners to clean the problem in the sinks, tub, and toilet.

can you post a pic of your rust filter? i've been wanting to find one but didn't think they actually worked well?

 

[Dan Freeman]

Will do. Give me until tomorrow morning, and I will take a pic and post.

 

[bigealta]

Will do. Give me until tomorrow morning, and I will take a pic and post.

Of course no rush at all. Thanks

 

[brenndatomu]

I am looking at an AO Smith system that is just one unit. I am not sure though about the grains or even if I am getting in over my head. I can do basic plumbing and plan on just using PEX connections so no sweating pipe. Is 35,000 grains enough for 3 people?

I have been happy with our built in Ohio WaterBoss that I put in 12 years ago or so...our issues sound very much the same as yours...scale build up and iron...I just use the green bag "iron out" salt, no more issues. and 35k grains is probably over kill...I think ours is 22k, and household of 4.

https://www.menards.com/main/plumbing/water-filtration-softeners/water-softeners-cleaners/waterboss-reg-22-000-grain-water-softener/700/p-1444446046527-c-8682.htm?tid=5039121570946327193&ipos=10

 

[Dan Freeman]

can you post a pic of your rust filter? i've been wanting to find one but didn't think they actually worked well?

I looked for a brand, but it is either facing the wall or it is just a generic filter. The plumber who installed it picked it up at a local plumbing supply store. It's about 1.5 feet high with a diameter of a large coffee can. The 2nd picture is the filter that goes inside. I change it once a year. Depending on the iron problem, you might have to change it more/less often.

 

[bigealta]

I looked for a brand, but it is either facing the wall or it is just a generic filter. The plumber who installed it picked it up at a local plumbing supply store. It's about 1.5 feet high with a diameter of a large coffee can. The 2nd picture is the filter that goes inside. I change it once a year. Depending on the iron problem, you might have to change it more/less often.

View attachment 295193

View attachment 295194

I have a similar filter after the softener but I have a taste / odor filter in it. I’m surprised that u can go 1 year on a filter and that it actually works to remove rust. My tenants have been using the salt with the iron removal additives. But when past tenants used regular salt or let the salt run out the rust was a big problem. Thanks

 

[semipro]

For the 3rd time now in a few years I have had to change the electric heating elements in my water heater. I have well water and a sediment filter, but that doesn't help much with the hard water. I think it's time for a softener. I think I am going to do it myself but I need some advice on what to get.

I am looking at an AO Smith system that is just one unit. I am not sure though about the grains or even if I am getting in over my head. I can do basic plumbing and plan on just using PEX connections so no sweating pipe. Is 35,000 grains enough for 3 people?

We have a very similar problem. In our case, the minerals collect on the heating elements and break off after enough buildup occurs and the elements expand during heating. The minerals collect in the bottom of the tank and eventually surround the lower element and it fails, probably from overheating or physical contact.
Because we don't want to use an ion exchange softening system because of the salt contamination caused when the exchange column is regenerated, we have resorted to other methods. We have two water heaters operating in series (long story); a HPWH and a standard electrical resistance heater like yours. Our solution:

1. We use the HPWH in HP-only mode for our primary water heating. The low max temps it operates at and the way the heating tube surrounds the tank prevent mineral buildup. In 10 years of operation, we've not had significant build-up in the tank. (one of many reasons to go with a HPWH).
2. We use longer, low energy density heating elements in the resistive electric water heater. These operate at the same electrical power level but are longer so that the energy transfer occurring between the element and water is lower than a standard element. This lowers the temp at the interface and prevents mineral deposition in the tank.
3. About every 3 years, we remove the lower heating element and drain valve from the resistive water heater and clean out the mineral buildup.

I've included photos of each element type below. You might want to try the 2nd type of element and maybe occasional tank cleaning before installing a softener.

Amazon product ASIN B000BQO752

 

[bigealta]

What do you use to clean out the water heater? I removed the bottom element and think I rigged up a tube to a shop vac and sucked. Out as much as I could while also breaking chunks off the mass of crusty deposits. The deposit level when I first opened it up after buying the house was up to the bottom element.

 

[Bad LP]

I looked for a brand, but it is either facing the wall or it is just a generic filter. The plumber who installed it picked it up at a local plumbing supply store. It's about 1.5 feet high with a diameter of a large coffee can. The 2nd picture is the filter that goes inside. I change it once a year. Depending on the iron problem, you might have to change it more/less often.

View attachment 295193

View attachment 295194

That looks like a Big Blue from my chair.

 

[EbS-P]

We have a very similar problem. In our case, the minerals collect on the heating elements and break off after enough buildup occurs and the elements expand during heating. The minerals collect in the bottom of the tank and eventually surround the lower element and it fails, probably from overheating or physical contact.
Because we don't want to use an ion exchange softening system because of the salt contamination caused when the exchange column is regenerated, we have resorted to other methods. We have two water heaters operating in series (long story); a HPWH and a standard electrical resistance heater like yours. Our solution:

1. We use the HPWH in HP-only mode for our primary water heating. The low max temps it operates at and the way the heating tube surrounds the tank prevent mineral buildup. In 10 years of operation, we've not had significant build-up in the tank. (one of many reasons to go with a HPWH).
2. We use longer, low energy density heating elements in the resistive electric water heater. These operate at the same electrical power level but are longer so that the energy transfer occurring between the element and water is lower than a standard element. This lowers the temp at the interface and prevents mineral deposition in the tank.
3. About every 3 years, we remove the lower heating element and drain valve from the resistive water heater and clean out the mineral buildup.

I've included photos of each element type below. You might want to try the 2nd type of element and maybe occasional tank cleaning before installing a softener.

View attachment 295195 View attachment 295196
Amazon product ASIN B000BQO752

Glad to hear your HPHW heater experience is similar to my ideas of how it should operate. While not a solution for hard water or iron it is an economical solution for water heating. I drained mine after 18 months on city water and found zero sediment.

 

[semipro]

What do you use to clean out the water heater? I removed the bottom element and think I rigged up a tube to a shop vac and sucked. Out as much as I could while also breaking chunks off the mass of crusty deposits. The deposit level when I first opened it up after buying the house was up to the bottom element.

I've used a curved piece of PVC attached to a shop vac that I've inserted through the element mounting hole but that gets clogged up quickly.
I now use an auger bit in a drill that just fits into the thread drain hole after the valve is removed. I open the cold water feed a bit, run the drill and use a bent piece of PVC inserted through the element mounting hole to move the mineral chips towards the drain outlet. The auger breaks them up and the water pushes them out into a 5-gal bucket. It actually goes pretty fast once everything is set up correctly.
I've also replaced the original drain valves with a full flow ball valve that allows an auger to be inserted through it. I actually can't remember what solution I landed on since I haven't done it in a while.

 

[Dan Freeman]

I have a similar filter after the softener but I have a taste / odor filter in it. I’m surprised that u can go 1 year on a filter and that it actually works to remove rust. My tenants have been using the salt with the iron removal additives. But when past tenants used regular salt or let the salt run out the rust was a big problem. Thanks

All depends on the amount of the problem.

 

[walhondingnashua]

You are all describing my situation exactly. Cleaning out the deposits with a piece of pipe taped to the shop vac. The situation with my elements are the exact same also. Next time, I am going to use a bigger elements.
I have planned on the AO Smith 35,000 but if I'm hearing that 22,000 is enough, I am going to look into other options at menards.
But as I look, the Waterboss from menards is less grains for roughly the same price. What's the draw back of more grains for the same price?

 

[bigealta]

You are all describing my situation exactly. Cleaning out the deposits with a piece of pipe taped to the shop vac. The situation with my elements are the exact same also. Next time, I am going to use a bigger elements.
I have planned on the AO Smith 35,000 but if I'm hearing that 22,000 is enough, I am going to look into other options at menards.
But as I look, the Waterboss from menards is less grains for roughly the same price. What's the draw back of more grains for the same price?

Not sure but i guess it would be larger uses more water and salt on back flushing. Probably not that big a deal.