Ways to burn cleanly

[bholler]

Where did I mention the rest of the country? But you do bring up another concern as the progressive side of central government control always starts relatively small and regional and then gets moved into the national realm while no one is looking.

Clearly the seasonal Fairbanks issue shouldn't be applied to the entire state.

Do you have any sort of evidence to back up any of your paranoid claims?

 

[BKVP]

It's unlikely that the rest of the country will be as extreme. They are not driving the rules for everyone. AK and NYS pointed out flaws in the testing, but not the stoves. Fairbank's rules do not apply to the rest of the country. You are mixing up regional rules (not EPA) with stove requirements.

Still, there are many parts of the country that have the same geographical constraints and are prone to temperature inversions. Clean burning stoves help make a dent in emission while using less wood. More complete combustion also means fewer gases emitted, including CO2.

BeGreen. Keep in mind once EPA approves a State Implementation Plan (SIP), any future nonattainment area MUST employ all the same metrics. Then, they must also add additional components to their proposed SIP.

Remember, Washington state employed their own emissions standards, tighter than EPA's standards. Multiple programs and regions then required any approved solid fuel heater to ALSO be on the WA state list. You already know that the WA state list was 75% of all EPA stoves.

Alaska’s list will, by December be just shy of 10% of EPA's total approved wood stoves. So far, as I mentioned earlier, only 2 programs are referencing the AK list for applicability.

 

[Ashful]

It is interesting that a state as broad, and of such low average population density, has allowed Anchorage to happen. History is a bugger.

Any discussion of shifting population density away from these areas prone to inversion and other such air quality issues? A long-term plan, for sure, but it appears to be a long-term problem.

 

[stoveliker]

Given the hesitance to move out of (sea level rise) flood plains (i.e. lives lost and destruction of property), I guess moving for air quality is not likely to happen anytime soon...

 

[BKVP]

It is interesting that a state as broad, and of such low average population density, has allowed Anchorage to happen. History is a bugger.

Any discussion of shifting population density away from these areas prone to inversion and other such air quality issues? A long-term plan, for sure, but it appears to be a long-term problem.

Military bases! They ain't going anywhere.

 

[Poindexter]

Military bases! They ain't going anywhere.

I saw in the paper in the last couple weeks the Air Force base up here will be the first to be equipped with the latest round of a small, modular nuclear reactor. They are burning coal now, but the AF base is also outside the EPA defined non-attainment area.

 

[ABMax24]

When talking real estate people usually look at; distance to work, distance to school, neighbourhood safety, school quality, distance to amenities and services like grocery stores. Maybe topics like noise from a nearby highway come up. I've never heard talk of air quality in real estate decisions.

On that note though I wonder how many diesel engines in Fairbanks are still operating with their emissions equipment intact? I know around here emission equipment reliability is a concern in the cold weather, and due to programming in the ECU a trouble code can make the vehicle inoperable until repaired. Approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of the diesel vehicles (including semis) in our city no longer have the emissions equipment installed that they drove off the factory floor with. Our air quality is lower than expected for a city of our size. I wonder if this is a contributing factor in Fairbanks as well?

 

[Poindexter]

It is interesting that a state as broad, and of such low average population density, has allowed Anchorage to happen. History is a bugger.

Any discussion of shifting population density away from these areas prone to inversion and other such air quality issues? A long-term plan, for sure, but it appears to be a long-term problem.

Technically it was "ADEC" that happened, Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation got empowered in a big way after the Exxon Valdez oil spill.

The list of approved stoves going forward is very short, I just pulled it up. Behind this link, there are some .pdfs in the grey tint box to the right. https://dec.alaska.gov/air/burnwise/standards/

 

[BKVP]

I saw in the paper in the last couple weeks the Air Force base up here will be the first to be equipped with the latest round of a small, modular nuclear reactor. They are burning coal now, but the AF base is also outside the EPA defined non-attainment area.

It's the F35's and much more....jobs. But reading your post about nuclear energy possibilities, that's new to me.

 

[BKVP]

When talking real estate people usually look at; distance to work, distance to school, neighbourhood safety, school quality, distance to amenities and services like grocery stores. Maybe topics like noise from a nearby highway come up. I've never heard talk of air quality in real estate decisions.

On that note though I wonder how many diesel engines in Fairbanks are still operating with their emissions equipment intact? I know around here emission equipment reliability is a concern in the cold weather, and due to programming in the ECU a trouble code can make the vehicle inoperable until repaired. Approximately 1/3 to 1/2 of the diesel vehicles (including semis) in our city no longer have the emissions equipment installed that they drove off the factory floor with. Our air quality is lower than expected for a city of our size. I wonder if this is a contributing factor in Fairbanks as well?

There are large numbers of trucks going through Fairbanks and in Fairbanks. I think, Poindexter can confirm, they initiated anti idling laws. No matter how nice or costly, I would think it difficult to not run the engine while in your sleeper cab at -40F, so you don't freeze.

 

[BKVP]

Technically it was "ADEC" that happened, Alaska Department of Environmental Conservation got empowered in a big way after the Exxon Valdez oil spill.

The list of approved stoves going forward is very short, I just pulled it up. Behind this link, there are some .pdfs in the grey tint box to the right. https://dec.alaska.gov/air/burnwise/standards/

As a manufacturer, we received an email two weeks ago. Two new "milestone" dates are set. June 7th 2022 and December 6, 2022. ADEC has confirmed that on these dates additional EPA certified wood and pellet stoves will move to the disapproved list.

 

[woodey]

One of the most important parts of the system is the chimney.

Great point, and it makes me wonder what percentage of wood burners realize it!!

 

[BKVP]

Great point, and it makes me wonder what percentage of wood burners realize it!!

I was shocked in a face to face meeting I had with a Borough air quality staff member:

Me: The reason this cash and carry stove changeout isn't having a significant effect on emissions is there is no assurance the appliance has a proper chimney and correspondingly enough draft.

Him: The chimney can effect emissions?

 

[bigealta]

I was shocked in a face to face meeting I had with a Borough air quality staff member:

Me: The reason this cash and carry stove changeout isn't having a significant effect on emissions is there is no assurance the appliance has a proper chimney and correspondingly enough draft.

Him: The chimney can effect emissions?

That’s no very encouraging.

 

[Poindexter]

I can't address the trucking industry completely. There are three large commercial companies that move containers from the rail yard to locations in town and I am fairly certain all three run some trucks up to the north slope.

Compared to what I used to see on the highways on the lower 48, ten+ years ago, there does seem to be a fair number of owner operated tractors, but Fairbanks is the rail head for the north slope. Given diesel fuel will gel at something like 10-20 degrees F (above zero) some/many/ a lot (?) of O/Os have a heated shop on their property where they do a lot of their own maintenance and store their tractors within the heated shop.

A frequent discussion topic among the few O/Os I do know is how long they have to wait to unload once they arrive on the North Slope. If it is going to be a long wait they have to buy more fuel which means they profit less money on the trip.

Fairbanks did have an emissions law for vehicles from more or less 2005 to 2010. It was the borough's first attempt to make the EPA go away, but it didn't work to meaningfully improve air quality and was scrapped. As far as I know you can run a track ready top fuel dragster on the street today and maybe be liable for a nuisance noise ticket.

There are areas around town posted "No idling," one of them I know intimately at the air intake for the HVAC system at the hospital in town where I work. They have a few cameras on that one, and a loud speaker so the security guard can talk to you firmly without getting up from the desk.

There are, I think, plenty of people who leave their cars idling when they don't have to instead of investing in warmer pants to use when sitting on a cold car seat. But study after study has shown the primary pollutant here during inversion events that can be tagged is wood smoke. CO, CO2, those can be from any combustion of carbon, but if you get busy with some solvents in a chemistry lab the source fuel contributing to airborne PM2.5 can be sussed out with pretty good reliability.

One thing I notice about the current ADEC list is the BK30 boxes are not on it, but somehow the slightly bigger BK Princess did pass the first hour filter pull and ADEC gave the test/certification paperwork a pass. I am sure Chris is all over that one.

 

[Poindexter]

https://www.ktoo.org/2021/11/05/eielson-air-force-base-may-have-a-small-nuclear-power-plant-by-2027/ linky thingy

 

[snobuilder]

Do you have any sort of evidence to back up any of your paranoid claims?

Anything a progressive latches onto which inevitably is some sort of freedom robbing government control idea....registering your wood stove with a government? Hard to control wood stoves inoperable by folks who have been burning wood for heat for decades?
gas cans that spill more than they move and then blame the end user....my gawd yur blind. ,...or a government hack.

 

[bholler]

Anything a progressive latches onto which inevitably is some sort of freedom robbing government control idea....registering your wood stove with a government? gas cans that spill more than they move....my gawd yur blind.

Where do you have to register your woodstove???

Yes some gas cans are horrible but I have 2 different types that I absolutely love and would choose them over old ones.

 

[snobuilder]

Where do you have to register your woodstove???

" Purchasers of wood or pellet heaters must register their appliance at the time of purchase"

 

[bholler]

" Purchasers of wood or pellet heaters must register their appliance at the time of purchase"

And where is that required???

 

[snobuilder]

And where is that required???

You deleted part of my post....read post #45.

 

[Poindexter]

And where is that required???

Fairbanks is the only place I know of. And the suburbs. We locals have been referring to the EPA non-attainment area as the 'rectangle of death,' drives the bureaucrats bananas.

 

[bholler]

You deleted part of my post....read post #45.

Yes I deleted a post that didn't follow our rules of useage.

And yes I know where the rule applies and why it has been implemented. It applies in areas where they have serious air quality issues.

 

[bholler]

Fairbanks is the only place I know of. And the suburbs. We locals have been referring to the EPA non-attainment area as the 'rectangle of death,' drives the bureaucrats bananas.

As I said above I know where it applies and why. I was just trying to point out this is a very localized requirement for a very specific reason. I honestly don't know enough about the area and it's issues to make an informed opinion on the requirement.

 

[snobuilder]

Yes I deleted a post that didn't follow our rules of useage.

And yes I know where the rule applies and why it has been implemented. It applies in areas where they have serious air quality issues.

So if you knew the answer why did you ask me where it was required. Are you instigating a confrontation with me?