Will economic woes help or hurt the hearth industry?

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sonnyinbc said:
None of us that have been burning wood for 10-20-30+ years should discount the fact that many of the "newbies" are discovering (real heat) for the first time. Lets be honest here people-it just simply feels better to heat with wood, the warmth that you get from it is like no other.

Some of the newbies will jump back on the fossil bandwagon, but many won`t. Many will realize that it is the "best bang for the buck".. And there are lots of old pre-epa stoves and inserts to be had.. I know, cause I just sold my old dragon ;-)

And even those old dragons, when priced right, generate many,many, phone calls. And whether we like it or not, there are gonna be a whole lot of those sold. Only thing we can do--is when they or if they visit this forum is to advise them to "burn hot and clean"-- like I used to do with mine.

And sooner or later--they will discover that the newer epa stoves/inserts burn a whole lot less wood, for way more heat. And then we get to chat with them all over again :smirk:

I agree. With the price of EVERYTHING up, I think most newbies will keep on burnin so as to save some coin somewhere.
 
ControlFreak said:
Just wondering what your thoughts are on this. Historically, do wood stoves sell better during hard times?

Dan

It will probably hurt since it was hurting already and only the spike in oil prices - very temporary - made it OK this year. There will be no money to buy stoves, no remodeling, no new building, fewer vacation homes......etc.

A perfect storm. Time to hunker in.
 
Less consumer spending of all kinds means reduced sale of manufactured goods.

Recession is generally used to describe a situation in which a country's GDP, or gross domestic product sustains a negative (reduced) growth for at least 2 consecutive quarters.

Cooler heads always prevail!
 
I know that the contractor/builder (& my friend) who's been working on my house for the last 6 months is really worried. He doesn't yet have any solid work lined up past our project, which is winding down now, and he really cares about the guys who work for him (also my friends), and about the subs and the suppliers and the health of the industry (bulding/remodeling) in general. It's how he makes his living. This is not a greedy or short-sighted guy...he's a very talented craftsman and a smart individual. He's worried. People are hurting, people can't borrow, people don't build, people don't remodel. What's that got to do with the hearth industry? Well, everything...just as it has to do with a whole lot of other industries. Probably some tough times ahead before we find our way out the other end. Rick
 
actually i think the hard times are bringing folks back to the hearth industry however its not the higher end that is benefitting as much (though they have seen increased overall sales from earlier in the year before oil peaked and started dropping) the section of the industry ESW falls into (utilitarian, not quite the rolls royce of the field) along with us stove and breckwell and some others who arent as high end, have seen record sales.

that said the margins arent as high due to higher costs for materials and the desire to keep prices low (lest our customers shop at the next manufacturer) make booming profit taking less likley. we have actually hired a record shattering number of employees this season opening a second factory. woodstove orders are actually higher in proportion than even i predicted (recalling a conversation from back in april or so when i told our sales manager that he ought to look for a huge move in wood this coming season(i rub that one in on him whenever i get the chance as he thought pellet was going to blow away wood this year))tack on obama's mention about electric plants paying through the nose on carbon credits (i think he said you could open a new coal plant but you'd go bankrupt) epa woodstoves are becoming very attractive in these times. probably more so in the value market than in the "boutique" market. so higher end models while fantastic units will be a bit harder sell based on price point alone.

looking a bit more long term the new woodburning population will recognize the value of burning wood and as the economy strengthens many will keep the chimney and possibly look to "upgrade" to a more upscale appliance (look at me im almost bashing my own product) when this happens i think it will revive the interest and sales numbers for the higher end more ornate stoves. personally i hope it happens sooner rather than later for the sake of the companies which make these wonderful appliances.

just my 2 cents
 
I for one would like the Hearth industry to stay just the way it is. I don't want to have competition for my free wood. Mine, mine...all MINE.
 
Dunebilly said:
LONDONDERRY said:
Custerstove said:
Rocky, do you have any evidence that wood burning could be banned in the next 4 years? That just seems absurd. Here in Pennsylvania, some people must burn all there trash on certain days of the week becuase there is no pick-up outside of the cities/towns. At least burning wood is a renewable source of energy - unlike coal or oil.

I love how some people say wood is renewable. True it is, but I bet I can burn through 3-4 cords faster that what it takes nature to grow back. Take a drive through Italy or Germany, not much forest left there.

A very old rule of thumb, was two cords per acre of wood lot. The real issue is not as much about renewability as it is that Burning wood is carbon neutral.

That is another myth I just don't by about wood being carbon neutral. As I mentioned before, people burning wood to heat house each and every year or not is done much faster than what nature can grow back, it just plain common sense.
 
If we don't burn wood, every tree must eventually release its carbon back into the ground and air through natural decay. You have to look at the big picture, the carbon cycle. Not everyone is a wood burner, and forests are incredible at carbon fixation. I believe there has to be a balance with wood, otherwise we would see sustained deforestation. The future of energy is diversifaction - people in the south will use solar energy; costal regions may use wave turbines, windy regions may use wind mills, forest covered regions may use wood. . . . but it's unlikely there will be a single energy source that fits everyones needs like oil. This "Oil Age" has been a monoploy for energy and can't continue indifinitely.
 
Custerstove said:
If we don't burn wood, every tree must eventually release its carbon back into the ground and air through natural decay. You have to look at the big picture, the carbon cycle. Not everyone is a wood burner, and forests are incredible at carbon fixation. I believe there has to be a balance with wood, otherwise we would see sustained deforestation. The future of energy is diversifaction - people in the south will use solar energy; costal regions may use wave turbines, windy regions may use wind mills, forest covered regions may use wood. . . . but it's unlikely there will be a single energy source that fits everyones needs like oil. This "Oil Age" has been a monoploy for energy and can't continue indifinitely.

And when a tree falls and is alowed to wood decay what gases does it release, CO2, methane. And what is the status of the Earth forests over the span of 100 years? Deforestation. So putting more CO2 into the air and less trees and plante life to absorb it.
 
fossil said:
I know that the contractor/builder (& my friend) who's been working on my house for the last 6 months is really worried. He doesn't yet have any solid work lined up past our project, which is winding down now, and he really cares about the guys who work for him (also my friends), and about the subs and the suppliers and the health of the industry (bulding/remodeling) in general. It's how he makes his living. This is not a greedy or short-sighted guy...he's a very talented craftsman and a smart individual. He's worried. People are hurting, people can't borrow, people don't build, people don't remodel. Rick

I think it varies from location to location. Here in Michigan, it's been bad (real bad) for some time, much longer than other places around the nation. Yall are just catching up now. Anyhow, I know three people that build homes for a living. Of those three, one has changed careers...totally different line of work. The two others are making a killing doing everything from remods to horse barns and anything in between. Many of the tradesman have moved on to other states where there is building going on so there is less competition and the fact that they've diversified what services they can do they have a full lineup of work ahead. It's going to get tougher for sure but in the meantime they are putting food on the table.

As for borrowing money, I know of two people that have purchased big ticket items (one car and one house), both in my opinion were not credit worthy for either loan and they still got the loans and within the last three weeks. I've been told that the people not getting loans were the one's with damaged credit but those two people got em'.

It's going to get worse before it gets better but if you've got spending to do, keep it local.
 
Derry, maybe you should go solar and preach to the solar crowd. All great things perish to the earth including people, yet I tend to be optimistic. I'm not advocating deforestation, but believe there is a balance. When wood decays it releases CO2, the same result as burning wood - that CO2 will eventually be converted back to sugar through carbon fixation (part of photosynthesis). Clearly, there's not enough wood for everybody in the world to burn, but I don't believe deforestation is a problem in my state. In fact, I live in the city and people are often overwhelmed with trees growing through powerlines, buildings, roadways and other structures. A side effect of global warming is increased vegetative growth - for example, during the times of dinosaurs CO2 was extremely abundant and plant growth was significant and overwhelming. As we release carbon, we are actually increasing the the main finger print of life itself: Carbon. Eventually dinosuars, great lizards and forests will rule the earth again - radiation and evolution will mutate insects and reptiles into large monsters that breath in CO2 amongst humid tropical climates. Alligators are going to be out of control.
 
LONDONDERRY said:
Dunebilly said:
LONDONDERRY said:
Custerstove said:
Rocky, do you have any evidence that wood burning could be banned in the next 4 years? That just seems absurd. Here in Pennsylvania, some people must burn all there trash on certain days of the week becuase there is no pick-up outside of the cities/towns. At least burning wood is a renewable source of energy - unlike coal or oil.

I love how some people say wood is renewable. True it is, but I bet I can burn through 3-4 cords faster that what it takes nature to grow back. Take a drive through Italy or Germany, not much forest left there.

A very old rule of thumb, was two cords per acre of wood lot. The real issue is not as much about renewability as it is that Burning wood is carbon neutral.

That is another myth I just don't by about wood being carbon neutral. As I mentioned before, people burning wood to heat house each and every year or not is done much faster than what nature can grow back, it just plain common sense.

I fell very few trees I cut up what is dead and on the ground first and most years I never have to fell a tree Or if I do it is a dead one or one that needs to come down.
 
Make the money now because I don't think the market will be as demanding next year. The Toyota Prius was impossible to get when it first came out. Buyers paid a premium and were put on waiting lists. Drivers were in a panic over rising gas prices. If you had one, you could sell it on e-bay for more than you originally paid for it. But after a year, consumers decided they would still rather drive SUVs and mini-vans even if it cost them more. When we bought a Prius a year ago, we had a huge selection to choose from and negotiated the price way down. Gas was near $4 and there was still no run on the hybrids.

If oil stays down over the winter, there will be a glut of "barely used" wood stoves on the market come Spring/Summer as people try to recoup the money they put into them. They will have discovered that wood stoves mean work one way or another. If you want a wood stove to be cheap heat you need to scrounge, cut, split, haul and load wood for at least 6 months out of the year. If you don't want to do the work to get the wood, you have to drop 150-250 for a cord of seasoned wood and you still need to haul and load 3-4 times a day. Those that tried to do it cheap will have only paid $100 for a cord just to find out that oak was split the day before it was delivered and they will come to believe that the much vaunted wood heat doesn't really exist because it is almost impossible to start a fire, it doesn't give off much heat and hisses and pops all the time. Not to mention the mess inside the house.

I'd bet that 2/3's of the brand-new burners from this winter will not try to burn extensively next year and at least half of those will sell their new wood stove to buy oil or propane or whatever. I'm already seeing chainsaws and splitters on craigslist and in the paper listed as "just bought, used once." They had no idea what they were getting into and now they want out.

Like with most activities that requite foresight, planning, sacrifice and hard work, people will decide they would rather pay extra for the ability to sit around and watch TV instead of making a commitment to wood burning. I know a guy who bought a brand-new NC-30, then decided to buy a tank of oil instead of chimney pipe cause the price of oil dropped so much. Another neighbor bought an expensive Jotul but stopped using it because of the smoke and mess. I'm seeing plenty of ads with people asking for free seasoned wood - in mid-november! It looks so easy on paper, I suppose.

On the plus side, I'm figuring on replacing both our older non-epa stoves some time next year with 2 "barely used" ones off Craigslist. And hopefully purchasing a couple "used once" chainsaws and maybe a splitter.
 
caber said:
Make the money now because I don't think the market will be as demanding next year. The Toyota Prius was impossible to get when it first came out. Buyers paid a premium and were put on waiting lists. Drivers were in a panic over rising gas prices. If you had one, you could sell it on e-bay for more than you originally paid for it. But after a year, consumers decided they would still rather drive SUVs and mini-vans even if it cost them more. When we bought a Prius a year ago, we had a huge selection to choose from and negotiated the price way down. Gas was near $4 and there was still no run on the hybrids.

If oil stays down over the winter, there will be a glut of "barely used" wood stoves on the market come Spring/Summer as people try to recoup the money they put into them. They will have discovered that wood stoves mean work one way or another. If you want a wood stove to be cheap heat you need to scrounge, cut, split, haul and load wood for at least 6 months out of the year. If you don't want to do the work to get the wood, you have to drop 150-250 for a cord of seasoned wood and you still need to haul and load 3-4 times a day. Those that tried to do it cheap will have only paid $100 for a cord just to find out that oak was split the day before it was delivered and they will come to believe that the much vaunted wood heat doesn't really exist because it is almost impossible to start a fire, it doesn't give off much heat and hisses and pops all the time. Not to mention the mess inside the house.

I'd bet that 2/3's of the brand-new burners from this winter will not try to burn extensively next year and at least half of those will sell their new wood stove to buy oil or propane or whatever. I'm already seeing chainsaws and splitters on craigslist and in the paper listed as "just bought, used once." They had no idea what they were getting into and now they want out.

Like with most activities that requite foresight, planning, sacrifice and hard work, people will decide they would rather pay extra for the ability to sit around and watch TV instead of making a commitment to wood burning. I know a guy who bought a brand-new NC-30, then decided to buy a tank of oil instead of chimney pipe cause the price of oil dropped so much. Another neighbor bought an expensive Jotul but stopped using it because of the smoke and mess. I'm seeing plenty of ads with people asking for free seasoned wood - in mid-november! It looks so easy on paper, I suppose.

On the plus side, I'm figuring on replacing both our older non-epa stoves some time next year with 2 "barely used" ones off Craigslist. And hopefully purchasing a couple "used once" chainsaws and maybe a splitter.


I agree with nearly everything in your post and I am really looking forward to finding a Napoleon 1101P Insert on the cheap come this spring.

Oil is down now, but it will go up. Even with buying delivered seasoned wood at $200 a cord (which will probably go down next year) I am still saving $1500-$3500 when compared to oil. AND my house is actually warm.

Can't wait until I get a second stove.
 
well some things prosper in these difficult times gun sales are at record highs ,im one of those newbies who just recently jumped on the woodburning wagon by purchasing a Englander addon firnace last month at my local home depot ,im not taking chances and im thinking ahead ,i know the oil prices are dropping now but it wont last forever ,with heavy taxation for upper income companies this adminisatration will likely cause increased fuel prices dramaticly over next several years im afraid
 
gyrfalcon said:
Custerstove said:
Rocky, do you have any evidence that wood burning could be banned in the next 4 years? That just seems absurd. Here in Pennsylvania, some people must burn all there trash on certain days of the week becuase there is no pick-up outside of the cities/towns. At least burning wood is a renewable source of energy - unlike coal or oil.

No, he doesn't. It's a silly paranoid fantasy that gets repeated around here every once in a while. The amount of pollution emitted in the course of getting those heating oil deliveries to the tank in your basement certainly exceeds the amount emitted by a modern stove. It's nonsense.

I can imagine a movement towards stricter rules about actual smoke that would affect only pre-epa burners, some of those horrible older wood-burning furnaces, etc., but only here and there on a community-by-community basis, and it will rarely be enforced. We aren't going to be seeing the Stove Police in our neighborhoods anytime soon.

gyrfalcon,

After delay due to several court challenges, PM25 standards are in effect nationwide. No state will be in compliance with these standards. The consequences of non-compliance will probably have an impact on solid fuel burning regulations, as well as many other things, including industrial emissions. I suspect we may see a nationwide ban on use of non-EPA compliant wood stoves. If the new administration decides to get very aggressive within its first two years (since Congresses only sit for 2 years, they can only be sure of the majority they will have in the 111th Congress) hold on to your hats--any thing's possible, including efforts to impose a complete wood burning ban.
 
I know this is a realy old thread but it's a great one. You get economics and ecology all in one. It's 2010 and as far as the economy effecting the hearth industry all I can say is ***HELP***, but it 100 degrees outside today. The stimulis helped a little in January. I was wondering what the stimulis did for other dealers?

Have there been any laws banning wood burning in the western cities in the last two years?
 
mo burns said:
I know this is a realy old thread but it's a great one. You get economics and ecology all in one. It's 2010 and as far as the economy effecting the hearth industry all I can say is ***HELP***, but it 100 degrees outside today. The stimulis helped a little in January. I was wondering what the stimulis did for other dealers?

Have there been any laws banning wood burning in the western cities in the last two years?

I can say that the 30% rebate was the deciding factor for me to get rid of a gas insert and go pick up the Hampton HI300 to complement my existing Napoleon 1401. They are on opposite ends of the house. I'm anxious to see if the HI300 operates as well as the 1401.

I bought the HI300 days before we flipped to 2010 in order to get the rebate this year.

(I was surprised to see this thread pop back up)
 
Since it popped up again and we are about at the halfway point of 2010, I'll say this much:
Sales in 2010 are up 34% over 2009 with higher margins and expenses running almost exactly the same
Sales and margins in 2010 are running almost exactly (with .5%) of 2008 which was a great year expenses are tracking about 8% lower.
So I'm very happy with 2010 so far.
 
Franks said:
Since it popped up again and we are about at the halfway point of 2010, I'll say this much:
Sales in 2010 are up 34% over 2009 with higher margins and expenses running almost exactly the same
Sales and margins in 2010 are running almost exactly (with .5%) of 2008 which was a great year expenses are tracking about 8% lower.
So I'm very happy with 2010 so far.

Sounds like you have a decent year going....nice to hear in these times.
 
Franks said:
Since it popped up again and we are about at the halfway point of 2010, I'll say this much:
Sales in 2010 are up 34% over 2009 with higher margins and expenses running almost exactly the same
Sales and margins in 2010 are running almost exactly (with .5%) of 2008 which was a great year expenses are tracking about 8% lower.
So I'm very happy with 2010 so far.

Hard to imagine with fuel prices for all fuels low and available cash in the pocket for a stove and installation being low. When existing heating units are already installed.

Glad to hear it. Just don't understand it. The only answer has to be the tax credit. So since I ain't buying a stove this year but will be paying off the deficit, you are welcome. ;-)
 
LONDONDERRY said:
Custerstove said:
Rocky, do you have any evidence that wood burning could be banned in the next 4 years? That just seems absurd. Here in Pennsylvania, some people must burn all there trash on certain days of the week becuase there is no pick-up outside of the cities/towns. At least burning wood is a renewable source of energy - unlike coal or oil.

I love how some people say wood is renewable. True it is, but I bet I can burn through 3-4 cords faster that what it takes nature to grow back. Take a drive through Italy or Germany, not much forest left there.

The deforestation is not from wood-burning, it's from agriculture (duh) and heavily from ship-building. The Scottish highlands, for instance, were stripped bare by the English in the 18th century for masts for the English navy.
 
"I love how some people say wood is renewable. True it is, but I bet I can burn through 3-4 cords faster that what it takes nature to grow back. Take a drive through Italy or Germany, not much forest left there."

Love it all ya want. This place is five and a half acres, four and a half of it woods, and I have heated this joint with wood cut off of this property since 1985. And last year a wood whacker stopped by to ask if he could cut any for me and he said that I had the thickest, best looking woods around here.

Up until I got the EPA stoves I was cutting and toasting five to six cords a year. Down to three cords a year now. The cash crop on this farm is trees.
 
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