Wood seller cutting logs shorter

[Elsie]

Hi, We moved east 2 years ago so are new to wood stoves. We bought several cords of wood from the same place. I really like his wood. This fall though when i brought it in the pieces fell through our inside wood rack. That was odd. I don't remember that ever happening before. I measured the wood and most is 13". Some as small as 11" and some are 15". Most are smaller though. In the rack, it was stacked 1' 9" high. The rack is almost 10' long. I ordered a 1/2 face cord. I never measured before which I guess I should have. This doesn't seem right.

So before I call him I wanted to find out what exactly I should have gotten and how to proceed.

Thanks so much!

 

[Rickb]

1 face cord or rank is 4'x8'x16"

So on a 10 foot rack 1/2 a face cord should be about what you got if it was cut to 16".

 

[Jon1270]

A face cord (or fraction thereof) is not a legally recognized measurement because it doesn't specify the length of the split, and doesn't really mean anything in terms of volume. I think most people assume it means 1/3 of a full cord, but it's subject to opinion. With irregular lengths like you've got, the best way I know of to estimate volume is to line up a dozen or so random splits end-to-end, measure the overall length and divide to get an average split length, which you can use to calculate the volume of the stack. If you do this and come up with less than 21.3 cubic feet then I'd say (informally, not legally) that you were shorted.

 

[Jon1270]

FWIW, with a stack exactly 10' long by 1'9" high, the average split length would have to be 14 5/8" to equal 1/6 of a cord, i.e. half a typical face cord. From what you wrote I'd feel shorted too, but it's (again) subject to opinion because "face cord" is legally meaningless.

 

[bigbarf48]

Well a "face cord" is just a half cord, so 1/2 of that is a 1/4 cord. So that comes out to 32 cubic feet.

L x W x H of your stack will give the cubic footage

Lets use an average of 14 inches for the splits for sake of rough calculations. That's about 1.15 feet. Length is 10 ft. Height is 1.75 feet

So....

10 x 1.15 x 1.75 = 20.125 cubic feet

So if my math is right then yes, you got shorted a bit

 

[bigbarf48]

Although as Jon points out, my calculation is based on the assumption that your seller also considers a face cord to be 4 ft X 8 ft X 2 ft, which may not be the case

A guy could sell 6 inch splits and a "face cord" would just be the first 4 x 8 x .5 ft row, which obviously would be smaller than my definition of a face cord.

The problem here is that it doesn't seem that "face cord" was ever defined between you and the seller, so it may be difficult to say if you were shorted or not. He may think you got exactly the right amount.

Assuming a face cord as 1/6 of a cord as Jon says (which is probably more accurate because most people don't split in 24 inch lengths), you got just the right amount.

 

[Jon1270]

Assuming a face cord as 1/6 of a cord as Jon says (which is probably more accurate because most people don't split in 24 inch lengths), you got just the right amount.

Not really. As I noted, the average length would have had to be almost 15" for her order to be 1/6 of a cord. She says most of the splits are shorter than that.

FWIW, there are legitimate reasons for splits to vary in length; many wood sellers are just cutting firewood into pieces they can move around by hand, so big trunks get cut into shorter rounds than do smaller branches. The problem is that "face cord" is a measure of area, not volume, and firewood is supposed to be sold by volume.

 

[bigbarf48]

I suppose you're right. Using 13 inches of split length, it comes out to 18.95 cubic feet, which means you were shorted ~2.4 cubic feet

So you'd need to add 15 inches to that 10 foot long stack in order to be at exactly 1/6 of a cord, which is probably just an armful. To me, that seems like a small enough amount that it may just be a mistake, but call him up and let him make it right.

 

[tekguy]

i always thought a face cord was 1/3 of a cord and seems to be usually priced as such

 

[Ram 1500 with an axe...]

How much did you pay for the half of face cord?

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Well a "face cord" is just a half cord, so 1/2 of that is a 1/4 cord. So that comes out to 32 cubic feet.

L x W x H of your stack will give the cubic footage

Lets use an average of 14 inches for the splits for sake of rough calculations. That's about 1.15 feet. Length is 10 ft. Height is 1.75 feet

So....

10 x 1.15 x 1.75 = 20.125 cubic feet

So if my math is right then yes, you got shorted a bit

A face cord is generally considered 1/3 of a cord. The face of a cord stacked 4x4x8. At 16" cuts- that's 1/3.

 

[Jags]

A face cord is generally considered 1/3 of a cord. The face of a cord stacked 4x4x8. At 16" cuts- that's 1/3.

Unless of course the wood is cut to 24" lengths and blah, blah blah.

Just using AP's post to show how a common term can be so misleading. Actually...almost meaningless.

(no posters - including AP- were harmed in the making of this response.)

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Unless of course the wood is cut to 24" lengths and blah, blah blah.

Just using AP's post to show how a common term can be so misleading. Actually...almost meaningless.

(no posters - including AP- were harmed in the making of this response.)

Anyone with a stove taking 24" splits isn't buying 1/2 a face from someone else. They cut it with a dull axe and split it with a stern whack with their own... well, I aint saying on a family site.

 

[Ashful]

1 face cord or rank is 4'x8'x16".

Wrong.

Well a "face cord" is just a half cord, so 1/2 of that is a 1/4 cord. So that comes out to 32 cubic feet.

Wrong.

A face cord is generally considered 1/3 of a cord. The face of a cord stacked 4x4x8. At 16" cuts- that's 1/3.

Wrong.

A face cord (or fraction thereof) is not a legally recognized measurement [of volume] because it doesn't specify the length of the split, and doesn't really mean anything in terms of volume. I think most people assume it means 1/3 of a full cord, but it's subject to opinion.

Correct.

A "face cord" does have a valid definition, that being any amount of wood that can be stacked to 4' x 8' x something. It is the "something" that varies at the sellers discretion, and this is why most states have laws stating that wood cannot be sold by "face cord". In essence, "face cord" is a measurement of area, whereas "cord" is a measurement of volume. You can assume "face cord" means 1/3 cord, but you are assuming incorrectly.

Look up your state's laws defining firewood sales, and more likely than not, you will find it states firewood must be sold by volume. Some states specify cords (or fractional cords), others specifically require the listing of cubic feet or L x W x H measurements. Some states have specific language stating the "face cord" is not a legal measurement for the sale of firewood.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

Wrong.


Wrong.


Wrong.


Correct.

A "face cord" does have a valid definition, that being any amount of wood that can be stacked to 4' x 8' x something. It is the "something" that varies at the sellers discretion, and this is why most states have laws stating that wood cannot be sold by "face cord". In essence, "face cord" is a measurement of area, whereas "cord" is a measurement of volume. You can assume "face cord" means 1/3 cord, but you are assuming incorrectly.

Look up your state's laws defining firewood sales, and more likely than not, you will find it states firewood must be sold by volume. Some states specify cords (or fractional cords), others specifically require the listing of cubic feet or L x W x H measurements. Some states have specific language stating the "face cord" is not a legal measurement for the sale of firewood.

Umm read mine again

 

[Slow1]

While you may not legally have been shorted, those splits sure are short. Whatever the definition of "face cord" your seller is using, I'd be upset about getting so much short wood! What size splits do you burn in your stove? (I don't see a model in your tag line)

I think this whole thread speaks to the need to be clear with your seller about your expectations and be sure you have agreement. Even when dealing in 'legal' cords of wood, I make a point to clarify with the seller what I consider a cord and what lengths it is cut to. While a few pieces over/under spec is likely to happen, those should be a minor part of the delivery.

 

[bigbarf48]

Wrong.


Wrong.


Wrong.


Correct.

A "face cord" does have a valid definition, that being any amount of wood that can be stacked to 4' x 8' x something. It is the "something" that varies at the sellers discretion, and this is why most states have laws stating that wood cannot be sold by "face cord". In essence, "face cord" is a measurement of area, whereas "cord" is a measurement of volume. You can assume "face cord" means 1/3 cord, but you are assuming incorrectly.

Look up your state's laws defining firewood sales, and more likely than not, you will find it states firewood must be sold by volume. Some states specify cords (or fractional cords), others specifically require the listing of cubic feet or L x W x H measurements. Some states have specific language stating the "face cord" is not a legal measurement for the sale of firewood.

Read my later posts

 

[Ashful]

Read my later posts

I wasn't quoting your later posts. I was quoting, "a face cord is just half a cord."

Umm read mine again

Nothing against you, Adios. Your posts are some of the most thoughtful I've read here. Clearly a very smart fellow. I was just taking issue with, "a face cord is generally considered 1/3 of a cord."

bigbarf48 can tell you... everyone knows a face cord is a half cord.

 

[BIGDADDY]

I would just call the guy and tell him you aren't sure that you got enough wood. You could also asked him if he could provide you with whatever specific length wood you like loading your stove with. If you want no 10 or 13 inch stuff.
He probably would like to keep a good customer happy. Give him a chance too.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

I did not say it was a hard definition. I said "generally is ".

Edit: I base that statement on observation (Most wood that I see from sellers is in the 14-18" range), as well as common sense.
They could cut it to 24", but it would be hard to sell- it wouldn't fit in many stoves.
They could cut it to the length of my "Irishness", but would have few repeat customers after delivering 1/16 of a cord.

I have not looked into the laws of every state to say if a "face cord" is defined in any given jurisdiction, but think it should just be scrapped. It is vague and imprecise, but people do generally have an expectation when they order it.

 

[bigbarf48]

I wasn't quoting your later posts. I was quoting, "a face cord is just half a cord."


Nothing against you, Adios. Your posts are some of the most thoughtful I've read here. Clearly a very smart fellow. I was just taking issue with, "a face cord is generally considered 1/3 of a cord."

bigbarf48 can tell you... everyone knows a face cord is a half cord.

Well that was an error on your part because this post clarifies my postings and says exactly what you said

Although as Jon points out, my calculation is based on the assumption that your seller also considers a face cord to be 4 ft X 8 ft X 2 ft, which may not be the case

A guy could sell 6 inch splits and a "face cord" would just be the first 4 x 8 x .5 ft row, which obviously would be smaller than my definition of a face cord.

The problem here is that it doesn't seem that "face cord" was ever defined between you and the seller, so it may be difficult to say if you were shorted or not. He may think you got exactly the right amount.

Assuming a face cord as 1/6 of a cord as Jon says (which is probably more accurate because most people don't split in 24 inch lengths) you got just the right amount

The point is, everybody can have a personal definition of a "face cord", the question for the OP is: what is your seller's?