Woodstove on 1st floor (with walkout below) sole heat?

[servant119b]

Hi,

We want to build a 1 story over walkout basement in the woods in Michigan. The house would be about 40x26 and most of our activity will be on the main floor. The 40 ft exposed basement wall will face east and will be right on the edge of a moderate to steep decline which slopes 50-100 ft down into a county drain. Down below it is flat for 50-100 yards and then it slopes back up the same way on the other side. I am also going to clear the trees on the slope in front of the house so we can see down into the valley. I have seen a multitude of houses that could have million dollar views if they would just clear out the trees.

My question is if we insulate the exposed basement wall good when we have the house built, will that be enough to keep the pipes from freezing in the basement? The whole house will be insulated good - 5 1/2 inches of insulation in the walls and R-60 in the attic. I might have some big picture windows in a couple rooms but they will be thermal.

I don't want to waste the opportunity of having a walk-out but I could put the basement below grade if I absolutely have to.

(We will have a back-up heat - that's not my question.)

 

[Poindexter]

One of the class titles at the school of hard knocks is "what can go wrong, will eventually".

Don't mean to rain on your parade, it sounds like a fine plan; I would want a back up.

 

[servant119b]

One of the class titles at the school of hard knocks is "what can go wrong, will eventually".

Don't mean to rain on your parade, it sounds like a fine plan; I would want a back up.

So if only the wood-stove is on and our back-up heat is turned off, the pipes should be fine?
You aren't raining on a parade because I'm trying to figure out if there will be a parade

 

[Poindexter]

The thing about heating with wood is someone has to load the stove.

Your own experince at your current place shows you can get away with it in your climate, so it's not hopeless...

My life has taught me that sooner ar later ( usually sooner) there is going to be a train derailed or a bad car accident or whatever that one night my wife isnt going to be home...

I just don't think it is prudent to not have a back up, but i live in an area where we take heat and frozen pipes very seriously.

 

[Hogwildz]

My basement is superior walls with R5 foam board built into the wall panels. Never had an issue with pipes freezing, as the basement stays around 50 degrees at coolest.

 

[BrotherBart]

My walkout no insulation basement has a lot of exposed wall area and even soffit on the whole back because the house is larger footprint than the basement. And it stays around 50-52 all winter.

For backup you could just put one of the radiator heaters that has an anti-freeze setting down there.

 

[mcdougy]

Here in Ontario, with a walkout, it is building code minimum to insulate under the basement slab. R5 minimum. I would stay away from fiberglass insulation, if going batt in the walls, better performance from rock wool (roxul). In the attic I also reccomend using cellulose if you are "blowing" the attic. Consider the proper window coatings for your windows. There are many. Standard Lo-e is often not the answer for all windows. Do your homework and you can build your dream with no regrets.

 

[mcdougy]

I would consider hanging the insulation blanket on the concrete walls. Fairly inexpensive, and allows you to not have to stud up the concrete walls to insulate.

 

[begreen]

In a walkout, if the walls are well insulated the glass area will probably be the greatest heat loss. Insulated curtains for those areas will help provide freeze-up protection during very cold weather. But I'd still have an electric area heater set to a very low temp for backup protection.

 

[servant119b]

What I am hearing so far is that a walkout is just like a below grade basement in a cold climate like Michigan. Even though a whole 40 foot wall is exposed, because the rest of the basement is mostly below grade, the pipes will not freeze under normal circumstances. And I hear what is being said about back-up heat. That's just common sense. I'm just trying to figure out the strength of the basement against the cold if I am running a woodstove on the main flow in a 1 story home. If I know that 99% of the time there is nothing to worry about, then I will probably do a walk-out. If I knew that 10% of the time the basement pipes would freeze without backup heat, then I would do the whole basement below grade. I trust everyone is tracking with me here. Thanks for the replies.

 

[begreen]

When you build, keep the plumbing in the core of the house and away from outside walls.

 

[Poindexter]

All my plumbing, including the hot water baseboards, is inside my insulation envelope.

At -40, -50dF if the electric goes off my back up oil furnace stops and i got something like 16 hours to get home, start my generator and hang the furnace off the generator so my pipes dont freeze.

The relevant variables for me are the degree loss per hour of my envelope and what the temperature should be indoors when the power goes off.

My degree loss per hour is a curve, not a straight line. The two main variables are insulation thickness and air sealing. My degree loss per hour is pretty negligble down to -15, -20 or so. Then the curve turns, below something like -30, -35 i start losing a lot of heat faster and faster. At -50dF i lose about 4 degrees per hour.

You can guess at what yours will be based on insulation thickness, but you will have to meet or exceed whatever the engineer assumed for air leakage.

I would advocate for measuring your actual degree loss per hour after the thing is built.

 

[Poindexter]

I dont know the southern michigan climate well enough to offer any other guesses.

I supplement the living dog out of my oil furnace with my wood stove, but if I am 12 hours late getting home from work nothing is going to freeze up on me.

If i am 16 hours late getting home, and its 50 below and the power has been off the whole time i wont be the only one with an expensive problem

 

[servant119b]

When you build, keep the plumbing in the core of the house and away from outside walls.

Begreen, how important is this? Most of the plumbing will be in the core BUT I was considering putting a soaking tub on the main floor in the bedroom next to a picture window with an amazing view on the walk-out side of the house. Do you think I'd be running a substantial risk of not getting the 99% of the time only woodstove heat that I'm looking for?

 

[bfitz3]

Northern michigan. Exclusive use of woodstove this winter. The basement has no insulation to speak of and stayed 50ish. I'm guessing this is somewhere in the vicinity of ground temp average from grade to 9 feet under + the slab. Most of the walls are uninsulated. If you have a walkout, that wall will be exposed to colder temps, but may have better insulation and you may get some solar gain. A wash in the +/- column?

My guess is that you'll be fine. Murphy (ala Murphy's law) is looking forward to you going without a heater set to go on at 45 degrees.

I'm not sure if you are headed there, but pay extra to ensure a tight house with the best insulation possible. Spray in foam? The money you pay now will come back in spades over the life of your house. If you're going to burn wood over he long haul, your back will thank you when it learns how much wood you won't have to move four times.

 

[begreen]

Begreen, how important is this? Most of the plumbing will be in the core BUT I was considering putting a soaking tub on the main floor in the bedroom next to a picture window with an amazing view on the walk-out side of the house. Do you think I'd be running a substantial risk of not getting the 99% of the time only woodstove heat that I'm looking for?

Should be ok as long as the the supply plumbing for the tub can be run in the joist space below and not up in the exterior wall.

 

[xman23]

My thoughts. I guessing this is not a full time house. I would go to 28 ft wide, as you would be wasting wood at 26. 3/4 of the basement below grade won't freeze. Keep all the water in one vertical column. Pitch all the pipes, so they will gravity drain.

 

[servant119b]

My thoughts. I guessing this is not a full time house. I would go to 28 ft wide, as you would be wasting wood at 26. 3/4 of the basement below grade won't freeze. Keep all the water in one vertical column. Pitch all the pipes, so they will gravity drain.

xman23, I don't really know what the exact dimensions will be. Have not talked to a builder or architect yet. Just trying to plan ahead.

I'm also considering a masonry heater now, since I like long burn times and a 40 hour Blaze King would probably put out too much heat for 1000 square feet. If anyone has an opinion on that I'd love to hear it. Could a Blaze King king model which goes 40 hours on low, work in a well-insulated 1000 square feet house?

The sucky thing about a masonry heater is you have to be there 2 hours after you start the fire and when you do start the fire it doesn't warm the place for like 12 hours.

Thanks for all the help folks.

 

[jetsam]

Hi,

We want to build a 1 story over walkout basement in the woods in Michigan. The house would be about 40x26 and most of our activity will be on the main floor. The 40 ft exposed basement wall will face east and will be right on the edge of a moderate to steep decline which slopes 50-100 ft down into a county drain. Down below it is flat for 50-100 yards and then it slopes back up the same way on the other side. I am also going to clear the trees on the slope in front of the house so we can see down into the valley. I have seen a multitude of houses that could have million dollar views if they would just clear out the trees.

My question is if we insulate the exposed basement wall good when we have the house built, will that be enough to keep the pipes from freezing in the basement? The whole house will be insulated good - 5 1/2 inches of insulation in the walls and R-60 in the attic. I might have some big picture windows in a couple rooms but they will be thermal.

I don't want to waste the opportunity of having a walk-out but I could put the basement below grade if I absolutely have to.

(We will have a back-up heat - that's not my question.)

In a cold house, the basement is the last place pipes will freeze unless (and this is a common unless) there is outside air blowing on 'em.

When it's 20° upstairs, it'll still be above freezing in a reasonably tight basement.

If the 'basement' is not below grade, then it may be just as bad as the rest of the house.

 

[Charles1981]

We live in Michigan and have basically this same setup you are planning. Walkout ranch basement. 1000 square foot house (1000 ft ground level, 1000ft walkout basement level). The walkout basement is about 8 feet below grade on two sides. The other 2 sides being the drive in garage and walk out back portion. We have the cinderblock foundation lined with a plastic mil waterproof lining with R3 insulation (had foundation work to keep moisture out) along with R10 XPS Foamboard as the insulation against this, then framing up in front. The walls that are not against grade just have r13 fiberglass.

DO NOT PUT FIBERGLASS OR ROXUL against the below grade foundation walls. WE paid the price for the previous owners mistake here. Moisture and condensation formed and severe mold issues developed and the fiberglass insulation turned into a kernal texture and wasn't providing much in the way of insulation anyway. For your sized house it won't cost more than 1000-1500$ to insulate the below grade foundation with XPS foam board IMO.

Our pipes are all against the below grade part of the house. We had one pipe for the kitchen sink freeze once when he left the house for 5 days. because we forgot to turn the electric baseboard heaters on in the basement below it. Thankfully no damage was done and the pipe thawed out with minimal difficulty. A first year lesson learned.

If we are leaving the house for a few days we turn on any baseboard electric heater near a water pipe to 65 degrees both downstairs and upstairs. It may cost 40-60 bucks for a few days of baseboard heat but it is well worth it.

With your house size I recommend electric baseboard heat as your "backup" if you want to go cheap in the short term use and avoid HVAC (our house has no HVAC). You just need to have extra wiring and electric panel to handle it. It also is the most hypoallergenic type of heating.

If you had to rely solely on electric baseboard heat in the long term use rnage you would pay for it in the pocket book however because it isn't cheap to be on 24/7.

BTW our wood stove is in the finished basement and heats the house just fine. We do turn the kids baseboard heaters on at night though as they close their doors to their rooms and if you do that and its 0 degrees or worse the rooms will get super cold fast.

 

[djkeev]

It's a vacation home?

Plumb ALL of the water pipes to pitch toward a drain cock.
When you leave after a weekend, open that drain and all of the spigots and flush the toilets.

Everything will drain EXCEPT for the the dishwasher and clothes washer for they have standing water in them that doesn't get pumped out. Draining them for freeze protection varies between units.

I have a Well Pump switch and a switch for the hot water heater in my Pantry. I turn them off EVERY TIME I leave, winter or summer. If anything with the plumbing goes wrong, the damage will be minimal.

I plumbed my house with PEX (slightly freeze damage resistant) and it is ALL pitched to a drain.... easy peezy......

As mentioned, keep water feed pipes out of exterior walls and set several inches in from the concrete foundation! Concrete transmits cold quite easily and if a pipe is fastened to it, guess where that cold goes?

My sink feeds enter my cabinetry towards the cabinet doors then feed rear towards the faucets. I've had too many pipes freeze during fridgid Winters over the years!

Dave

 

[Mike M.]

Do you plan to spend any time in the walk out basement? Maybe add a living room or kids area down there? The reason I ask is since you are at the planning stage why not drop another 6in class A down there? Use the stove upstairs - see how it goes. Then when you want warm floors and it's -30 fire up the basement stove.

Sent from my SM-G900R6 using Tapatalk

 

[servant119b]

Do you plan to spend any time in the walk out basement? Maybe add a living room or kids area down there? The reason I ask is since you are at the planning stage why not drop another 6in class A down there? Use the stove upstairs - see how it goes. Then when you want warm floors and it's -30 fire up the basement stove.

Would you use the same chimney as the stove on the main floor?

 

[begreen]

A basement stove would need a separate chimney. Each woodburning appliance needs its own chimney pipe.