Would this work with a chimney fire?

[Backwoods Savage]

On another forum, this was posted:

"When I was growing up we had an airtight stove also. Once we had a chimney fire and didnt know it. A neighbor came over and told us he saw flames coming out of our chimney and called the fire department. When they showed up, they asked for a big glass of water. My dad was like "What?!" They took the water, quickly opened the door, threw the water in and closed the door. After that, they went outside and in the attic to check for any damage or residual fire and found nothing. My dad asked what the deal was with the water and they explained that the water turns to steam and smothers the fire in the chimney. Well, it worked! The firemen said that its a quick end to a fire..."

Never heard of this before. Has anyone heard of this? Would it work?

 

[n6crv]

You throw a big glass of water into a hot stove you just might have a fire all over the floor. There is a very good chance that the stove will crack from the shock.
Don

 

[moondoggy]

ok so who's gonna try this.

not me, too new

 

[RedRanger]

Well, we have a question of priorities here now don`t we? Water on the fire equals possible cracked stove? No water equals stove still standing with no house surrounding it. Hmmmm-still can`t quite decide??? ;-P Whoops, forgot about that spillage, which could be stomped out and still leave the house intact. Dam`n this is a tough one? :roll:

 

[mtcox]

There are several methods to putting out a chimney fire. Every fire is different and I cannot say that it would never be attempted but opening the door to a wood burning stove would be a last resort. Fireplaces are a different animal and can be approached differently.

This is best left to the professionals. There are too many components to a chimney fire to safely extinguish them as a homeowner. Please do not attempt this yourself. Evacuate the house, call 911 from a neighbors house or cell phone and let the firefighters do their work. Most chimney fires can be extinguished with a fire extinguisher in the hands of a professional. They can also limit the amount of damage that is done to your house and home.

 

[Backwoods Savage]

ok so who's gonna try this.

not me, too new

Well, I'm not too new but too old. Still, I'll leave the trying of this to someone else, thank you. In the meantime, I'll make every attempt to stay away from a chimney fire....which we have never experienced. Thank God for that!

 

[Jimbob]

This is best left to the professionals. There are too many components to a chimney fire to safely extinguish them as a homeowner. Please do not attempt this yourself. Evacuate the house, call 911 from a neighbors house or cell phone and let the firefighters do their work. Most chimney fires can be extinguished with a fire extinguisher in the hands of a professional. They can also limit the amount of damage that is done to your house and home.

That advice is good for people who live close to a fire hall. There are some remote places out here where a fire dept. can take more than 20 minutes to arrive, especially if the chimney fire is discovered at 2 AM.
A fire which could have been dealt with upon discovery could do a LOT of damage in that time.

Everyone's different, but this is what I'd do:

1) Turn down draft control on stove all the way down. Block any air inlets into stove, including outside air inlet.
2) Evacuate family.
3) Call fire dept. and follow their instructions.
4) Throw on winter coat and pants (snowmobile suit).
5) Go outside and check for fire on outside of chimney, carefully feel surface of chimney to see if it's hot, throw snow on hot spots, also check interior sections of chimney.
6) Re-check stove, if it is still roaring out of control, VERY SLOWLY open door and loft a full box of baking soda, box and all, into the stove, then quickly close the door.
7) Check as many exterior surfaces of chimney as possible again, open access to attic if needed, firefighters might need access to there anyway.
8) Repeat steps 5,6,7 while waiting for firefighters to arrive.

The winter clothing will allow you to approach the hot stove to open the door, if needed.

 

[[email protected]]

I have put out a fire inside my stove by using a pump garden sprayer set to mist. The mist won't shock the stove but will turn to steam fast. I was surprised how quickly I could put out the fire.

I keep one loaded with water in the basement just in case.

 

[rdrcr56]

I don't necessarily agree with throwing water into a stove but, I can see the possibility of cracking a cast iron stove, but it probably would not do anything to a steel one, except possibly cracking the door glass? In all my years using a cutting torch and welding I have never seen any steel crack from being quenched in water.

 

[Gooserider]

The glass (actually a ceramic) probably won't crack from throwing water in the stove, it's some really tough stuff. However you do have the serious risk of causing a crack, especially in a cast iron or soapstone stove, but even steel stoves have been known to have welds let go. According to previous posts by firefighters, however the real danger is what they call a "BLEVE" explosion - I forget just what it stands for, something like "Boiling Liquid - Expanding Vapor Explosion" but essentially it is caused by the water "flashing" into steam, and if the fire is hot enough, breaking down into it's component Hydrogen and Oxygen mixture, which is highly flammable, and combusts explosively... This can cause severe damage to the stove, scalding burns to the person with the water, and blow burning material out of the stove.... It is said to be one of the things that firefighters fear tremendously as it is very dangerous, and throwing a container of water into a fire in a confined space is one of the "textbook" ways of causing one.

Next on the list of "mixed bag" ideas is opening the door and discharging your handy fire extinguisher into the box... Problems - 1. Leaves the door open longer than is healthy, supplying oxygen to the fire. 2. blowing a jet of highly compressed gas into a small box can induce a "blowback" that can blow burning material out of the firebox - not good!

Remember that any firefighting tactics should be targetted towards "DON'T MAKE A BAD PROBLEM WORSE!

The baking soda box trick is one that I have seen reccomended by firefighters as sometimes effective, and doesn't make the situation worse. A possibly better option I've seen suggested is to go to the local FD or fire extinguisher outfit and get a container (a plastic "zippy" is good) full of fire extinguishing powder (preferably an "A-B-C" type). I had an extinguisher that lost pressure, so I took it apart and got the powder that way - and keep it near the stove, in case of emergency, use it like the baking soda.

They are hard to find, because (ironically enough) the factory burned down, but there are a special "Chimnefex" extinguishers made for chimney fires, that work like a road flare - ignite and toss in the stove, they are supposed to generate a smoke that chokes out the fire... They are also supposed to be good...

If you have a hose available (not likely in winter) spraying the roof with water to prevent sparks coming out the chimney from setting it on fire is good, and non aggravating. At least it gets you out of the house :-S

Otherwise the main advice is good - evacuate, call 911, etc.

Gooserider

 

[tkirk22]

Here's my tale of waiting for a hose.

I currently live 1/2 mile from a volunteer fire house. A few years ago a home 3 doors down had a defective furnace which shot flames into the wall. I called 911 when there was a little waft of smoke coming out of a small shed addition where the furnace was located. A firefighter heard the scanner call and within 30 seconds he was there in his personal vehicle. I asked if he wanted a garden hose or extinguisher and the reply was the trucks are coming. He outranked me so I complied. It took the trucks about 20 minutes to get there.

At this point there's about 10 firefighters, a couple fire trucks, various backup vehicles, and numerous spectators watching the house expel an increasing amount of smoke out of this small addition. We'll 20 minutes after that the smoke was now coming out of the entire 2nd floor and somebody got the bright idea that maybe they could use their hoses to put the fire out. By the time they got their hoses off the truck and wet, the 2nd floor was fully involved.

The house was a total lose and was later leveled. Now I'm not a fireman, but if it was my house I would have turned the furnace off and stuck a garden hose or fire extinguisher into the wall while waiting for the big hoses.

I now own a commercial size CO2 extinguisher and numerous large ABCs, including 2 in each of my vehicles.

Which leads to my latest experience:
A couple months ago there was an bad accident on the road behind my house. One car had a fully involved engine fire, the engine was still running and was actively pumping burning fuel onto the ground and towards the fuel tank. The incapacitated driver was about 15 feet away on the ground. I pulled one of my big reds off the shop wall and put out the engine fire. But the engine's still running and it's pumping fuel from the return line onto the engine...so it reignites. I smash the passenger window and turn the engine off so I can put the fire out a second time. (Note: I've been around cars all my life so I deemed it reasonably safe to get that close to a burning engine). You may not want to try this at home ;-)

At this point we have my wife(Nurse) and a Paramedic that just happened to be at the scene working on the injured man and a State Policeman who is acting more like a spectator. I'm standing in the middle of the road with a half full extinguisher just in case the car decides to reignite. The rescue squad arrives in about 15 minutes and the fire truck shortly afterwards. One of the firefighters sees me with the big extinguisher and says "where'd you get that from?" I couldn't help but look over at the now vacant lot from my last 911 call and think DIY.

Back on topic: Would emptying a straight CO2 extinguisher into a wood stove help slow down a chimney fire? Or would the open door negate any effects from the CO2?

Kirk

 

[mtcox]

Most people in the US do not have the luxuary of a full time, in house staff of paid firefighters within 10 minutes of their home. I can understand why someone would want to take matters into their own hands. It's their life and property. There is a lot at stake here.

On the other hand, most fire related fatalities are victims who tried to extinguish the fire themselves or went back into the house for something or someone after evacuating.

The BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) described earlier is a threat. Water expands 1,000 times when it converts to steam. It must go somewhere and it could be up the chimney or it could be out of the stove onto the homeowner.

CO2 is NOT the preferrred choice when dealing with a chimney fire. A dry chemical extinguisher would be more appropriate.

I'll follow up with what I said earlier. If you detect a fire in the home (chimney or otherwise) evacuate everyone and call 911 from a cell phone or neighbors house. Are your possisions worth the risk of severe injury or death?

 

[Gooserider]

Here's my tale of waiting for a hose.
<snip>
Back on topic: Would emptying a straight CO2 extinguisher into a wood stove help slow down a chimney fire? Or would the open door negate any effects from the CO2?
Kirk

A CO2 extinguisher isn't really desirable for most fires - it's only real virtue is that it isn't electrically conductive and it evaporates w/o leaving a big mess - making it ideal for fires in electrical / computer rooms. In a wood stove or chimney fire, I'd be worried about the "back blast" from the fire extinguisher blowing hot material out of the stove into the room / user, and also the thermal shock from the CO2 cooling the stove and causing it to crack (like water might also do) The other big problem is that CO2 doesn't leave a residue around. It smothers the fire, and cools things until it evaporates, but then it disappears - if the fire scene is still hot enough, when the CO2 gets replaced by oxygen, the fire will reignite. I've heard this can be a big problem with chimney fires as they get things heated well above the ignition point and because of convection will rapidly move the CO2 out of the way and replace it with fresh air.

OTOH, a dry-chem extinguisher makes a hellacious mess, but the powder actively inhibits combustion, and it doesn't go away until you clean up the mess...

One thing I do like to mention about extinguishers - they should always and ONLY be located NEXT to exits - This way if you want to fight the fire, you have to go to the exit, get the extinguisher and go back in - thus you know that you are closer to the exit than the fire, reducing the odds of getting cut off from your escape route if it turns into a bigger problem than your extinguisher can handle.

Gooserider

 

[stoveguy2esw]

maybe we should add fire bottles like on aircraft engines, direct dump halon into the firebox, bet that would do it , but would not be condusive to using the stove again soon , plus it stinks gawdawfully bad, i hated that stuff

 

[Gooserider]

maybe we should add fire bottles like on aircraft engines, direct dump halon into the firebox, bet that would do it , but would not be condusive to using the stove again soon , plus it stinks gawdawfully bad, i hated that stuff

I thought Halon was one of those flourocarbons like Freon that we aren't supposed to be using anymore? Don't know why it would keep you from using the stove afterwards... Now if it was some sort of automated version of a drychem extinguisher - that might be more of a mess to clean up, but would probably work pretty good - dump a bunch in the firebox and send a big jet up the chimney should put out most stuff and then just let it cool and call a sweep to get the goo out of the chimney.

The big challenge I see with something like that is how to protect the extinguisher bottles in a normal use situation - I would think that a pressure can would have expansion problems from heat, but I'm having trouble thinking off hand of a stable, non-thermally sensitive chemical mix that could be used to generate pressure on demand, but also would not go off on it's own, or break down over time to become unreliable...

Gooserider

 

[karl]

CO2 is not bad as a fire suppressor. Halon is good stuff. Freon is the best, but we can't use it for that anymore. I really prefer a gaseous extinguisher. They don't leave a mess and they not only displace oxygen but they absorb a great amount of heat, thus helping prevent a reignition. Dry chemical works, but it leaves a mess and it doesn't cool the combustibles.

Oh and "BLEVE" is boiling liquid vapor expansion. It refers to a substance that is normally a gas at standard atmospheric pressure but is often transported in a compressed state as a liquid. This would be a propane tank. Water will not create a BLEVE explosion as its not a gas at normal atmospheric pressure. The flammable gases are the worst for BLEVEs but even non flammable ones can create a huge mess.

 

[Heat Miser]

The most awesome fire extinguisher I've ever seen is something called the Tri-Max. You can see some videos of it in operation here:

http://www.tri-max.info/tri video.htm

Here's a video of the Tri-Max (large and small) vs. Halon, CO2, and Dry-Chem on a petrol fire. This was done by members of the LA Fire Department so they knew what they were doing:

http://www.tri-max.info/video/tri 3.wmv

The portable unit is three gallons. When put to use it creates over 50 gallons of foam discharged at a high pressure so you can stand back 20+ feet to put out the blaze. This is the unit used by the military and by the logging companies out my way to extinguish accidental fires started by their equipment. It's probably not something to use to extinguish electrical fires though.

I have a hobby forge in my shop and we keep one there because the fire department is 10+ minutes away and that is assuming they are sitting in the truck with the engine running waiting for the call. We also don't have any hydrants near by. So if there was a problem I'd go for the exits, dial 911, and if I felt it was safe I'd try to extinguish the problem. But I wouldn't want to use this thing in a chimney fire.

I tested the unit once on a brush pile fire I started to burn yard debris. There were flames 5+ ft. high in a 6+ft. diameter and this thing snuffed it out so fast it was amazing. I should have made a video of it. Maybe in the spring when the rain stops.

Now I do keep two dry chem fire extinguishers at the two exits in the room with the wood stove though. I spent a little extra and bought the commercial grade extinguishers. They are much larger than the ones you store in a kitchen and can be professionally checked and recharged. This is a nice feature because the smaller ones are frequently not rechargeable and lose pressure as the years go on.

 

[isuphipsi1052]

Firefighter here...

Never heard of throwing a glass of water into a fireplace. I don't believe enough steam would be created to put out a well involved chimney fire. Our procedures are as follows...

1 - Carpet runners are brought in to eliminate tracking up the floor;

2 - The "can" is brought in (5 gallon water extinguisher);

3 - Thermal Imager brought in;

4 - Tool box;

5 - Ladder truck or ground ladders to the chimney, along with brushes and chimney snuffer nozzle;

6 - Fire box is cleared out with all materials taken from the house in a closed. sealed salvage bucket;

7 - Crews immediately go to the upper floors of the house and perform checks of all walls adjacent to the chimney wall; the attic is also inspected as well as the basement;

8 - Once the fire in the chimney is extinguished the chimney receives a thorough brushing and then is "red tagged" and cannot be used until inspected by the Town Fire Marshal.

My department is VERY thorough and methodical in our approach to these incidents. We have a great track record with these incidents, and always received high praise from our homeowners because of our attention to detail and the care we take in minimizing and damage to the interior of their homes.

 

[tkirk22]

So the CO2 is out.

Heat Miser: How much does the small Tri-Max unit cost?

Firefighter here...

Never heard of throwing a glass of water into a fireplace. I don't believe enough steam would be created to put out a well involved chimney fire. Our procedures are as follows...

1 - Carpet runners are brought in to eliminate tracking up the floor;

2 - The "can" is brought in (5 gallon water extinguisher);

3 - Thermal Imager brought in;

4 - Tool box;

5 - Ladder truck or ground ladders to the chimney, along with brushes and chimney snuffer nozzle;

6 - Fire box is cleared out with all materials taken from the house in a closed. sealed salvage bucket;

7 - Crews immediately go to the upper floors of the house and perform checks of all walls adjacent to the chimney wall; the attic is also inspected as well as the basement;

8 - Once the fire in the chimney is extinguished the chimney receives a thorough brushing and then is "red tagged" and cannot be used until inspected by the Town Fire Marshal.

My department is VERY thorough and methodical in our approach to these incidents. We have a great track record with these incidents, and always received high praise from our homeowners because of our attention to detail and the care we take in minimizing and damage to the interior of their homes.

Carpet runners eh? This must be Beverly Hills you're talking about ;-)

Seriously, It sounds like you guys are on the ball!

Let's assume there's no smoke or flames in the structure but there's a freight train roaring up the stack, the fire department has already been called and everybody is out. What would you do if it was your home and you had a 30 minute wait?

Kirk

 

[MarcM]

CO2 is not bad as a fire suppressor. Halon is good stuff. Freon is the best, but we can't use it for that anymore. I really prefer a gaseous extinguisher. They don't leave a mess and they not only displace oxygen but they absorb a great amount of heat, thus helping prevent a reignition. Dry chemical works, but it leaves a mess and it doesn't cool the combustibles.

Oh and "BLEVE" is boiling liquid vapor expansion. It refers to a substance that is normally a gas at standard atmospheric pressure but is often transported in a compressed state as a liquid. This would be a propane tank. Water will not create a BLEVE explosion as its not a gas at normal atmospheric pressure. The flammable gases are the worst for BLEVEs but even non flammable ones can create a huge mess.

No, the mod was right on the acronym... it's Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapor Explosion. It doesn't just happen with combustibles transported under pressure as liquids. For example, when you see a gas tank on a car that's burning explode, that's technically a BLEVE. The impinging fire increases the pressure in the gas tank by increasing the vapor pressure of the liquid. When part of the gas tank fails, the vapor is expose to oxygen, expands violently not only from the release in pressure of the tank, but the thermal expansion of the gas from the extremely rapid combustion.

I'm not clear on how one exactly could have a BLEVE by throwing water in a wood stove during a chimney fire. Water vapor of course cannot burn, because it is one of the products of combustion. It has already oxidized. Adding more thermal energy will only raise the temperature of the molecule. To get water to "split" you need eletrolysis.

You are quite right that Halon (particularly 1301) was like a Godsend to the fire protection community. Under the Montreal Protocol, for better or worse, we are no longer allowed to produce it, however using existing Halon is still perfectly legal.

 

[tkirk22]

maybe we should add fire bottles like on aircraft engines, direct dump halon into the firebox, bet that would do it , but would not be condusive to using the stove again soon , plus it stinks gawdawfully bad, i hated that stuff

The big challenge I see with something like that is how to protect the extinguisher bottles in a normal use situation - I would think that a pressure can would have expansion problems from heat, but I'm having trouble thinking off hand of a stable, non-thermally sensitive chemical mix that could be used to generate pressure on demand, but also would not go off on it's own, or break down over time to become unreliable...

Gooserider

Put a 5 gallon pressurized water extinguisher near the stove. Connect with several feet of stainless line to a sprinkler inside the fire chamber. Size the water line or put in a restriction so the steam doesn't create an explosion but still allows water to hit the wood. While your on the phone with 911, pull the pin, press the handle and walk away. No marshmallows needed??

If you want to get fancy, add a thermal sensor, electric valve, and alarm to the mix.

I can see something like that being used in the future if it isn't already used in other countries. The firefighters are just going to dump water in there anyway right?

Kirk

 

[MarcM]

maybe we should add fire bottles like on aircraft engines, direct dump halon into the firebox, bet that would do it , but would not be condusive to using the stove again soon , plus it stinks gawdawfully bad, i hated that stuff

The big challenge I see with something like that is how to protect the extinguisher bottles in a normal use situation - I would think that a pressure can would have expansion problems from heat, but I'm having trouble thinking off hand of a stable, non-thermally sensitive chemical mix that could be used to generate pressure on demand, but also would not go off on it's own, or break down over time to become unreliable...

Gooserider

Put a 5 gallon pressurized water extinguisher near the stove. Connect with several feet of stainless line to a sprinkler inside the fire chamber. Size the water line or put in a restriction so the steam doesn't create an explosion but still allows water to hit the wood. While your on the phone with 911, pull the pin, press the handle and walk away. No marshmallows needed??

If you want to get fancy, add a thermal sensor, electric valve, and alarm to the mix.

I can see something like that being used in the future if it isn't already used in other countries. The firefighters are just going to dump water in there anyway right?

Kirk

What the FD does after arriving on scene varies from dept to dept. You've got a good idea, however, I'd use a water mist nozzle rather than a sprinkler. Low pressure mist nozzles are available. A mist nozzle would ensure you cool the gases and not the solids. I'd stay away from anything that might apply liquid water to hot surfaces in an environment rich with materials which easily crack under thermal stress (cast iron, masonry, etc).

Some fire departments use "snuffer" nozzles to extinguish chimney fires which consist of a weighted nozzle lowered into the chimeny on a smaller diameter hoselines which have several misting nozzles built into the weighted end. This extinguishes the chimney fire without risking a cracked flue liner or masonry.

 

[isuphipsi1052]

Let’s assume there’s no smoke or flames in the structure but there’s a freight train roaring up the stack, the fire department has already been called and everybody is out. What would you do if it was your home and you had a 30 minute wait?

Since the 30 minute wait is never going to happen in my region of the State. I guess I would do the following:

1 - Clear out the firebox;

2 - Set up a fan in front of the firebox (ready to turn on to high);

3 - Dump a dry-chem extinguisher into the flue pipe with the fan now running.

Hopefully the fan and natural pressure (draft) will take its course and extinguish the fire.

 

[tkirk22]

What the FD does after arriving on scene varies from dept to dept. You've got a good idea, however, I'd use a water mist nozzle rather than a sprinkler. Low pressure mist nozzles are available. A mist nozzle would ensure you cool the gases and not the solids. I'd stay away from anything that might apply liquid water to hot surfaces in an environment rich with materials which easily crack under thermal stress (cast iron, masonry, etc).

I was thinking somewhere between a mist and a stream but I understand what you're saying.

BTW, I've found that oil burner nozzles will spray water fairly well at low PSI. Not sure if they could take the heat direct though...time for an experiment.

 

[webbie]

If a stove is tightly installed, it is very difficult for a chimney fire to get enough air (if the stove air inlet is closed) to really cook!

And, open fireplaces don't tend to build up vast creosote deposits. Also, our chimney sweeps (at the shop) report that most post-epa stoves have very little (if any) combustible creosote in the chimneys.

So I assume most of these fires are with improperly installed old smoke dragons? As hopefully our resident combustion engineer, T, can verify - without a fairly vast amount of "feed" air, a fire can only get to a certain level.