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Wow, China takes the bull by the horns!

Post in 'The Green Room' started by webbie, Aug 9, 2010.

  1. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Yeah, that's the problem.

    I'm a bit depressed about it at this point. Looking around I truly feel that the politics, which is really BUSINESS, is unlikely to change in this country during my lifetime. It's pretty much over - the corporations have won. Sad, but true.

    Sure, this country is big enough that there will be some good advances happening on a local, regional or state basis - but as a whole I really doubt that our current chaos can solve anything.

    Some big accomplishments do take cooperation - and we are at a disadvantage because divide and conquer has been the name of the game for the last 20 year or so (maybe longer).

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  2. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    As long as they're still using American dollars to do either or both it won't matter how much they buy or what they sell us, and as long as we control a majority of the world's reserves either through financial or millitary force that will continue to happen. Just wait untill they invent the Chinese soccer mom, then they'll be getting a tatse of a TRUE dictator! Neither politial system is based on choice. They have a one party system, and what we have is an appearance of choice. Ok, sorry to veer off track.

    I don't think we're making serious turns towards renewables. I think its about getting rebates and gifts from federal and state governments. Just look at what happened to 1 trillion dollars in spending-GONE! What could we have done with that other than pay for bloated budgets. It also equals about the total of our currency's reserves China holds over our heads.
  3. webbie

    webbie Seasoned Moderator Staff Member

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    Do you think we control a majority of the worlds reserves?

    As to rebates, etc. that is exactly how Germany just installed solar electric with the power of 4 Nuclear plants. How did you picture that things actually get done - where the rubber meets the road?

    As I have said and shown before, we have been subsidizing private vehicles (cars and trucks) and their infrastructure for almost a century.....and also giving tax credits to oil and gas drilling companies. The fact is that government, by either commission or omission, DOES create the playing field which moves energy policy. It would have been very difficult to build the TVA or Hoover & Bonnevile Dams without Government paying for them.

    Bt, I think you are coming at this with the typical conservative ideal - that is, first starting with the premise that any government spending must be bad, and then making the facts fit your view! History shows otherwise. Many (maybe even MOST) major advance in our country have been due to all that pork you so lament. Examples include:

    1. The Steamboat - state monopolies as well as military contracts given to Fulton and friends.
    2. The Erie and other canals - financed and built by the state.
    3. The Transcontinental RR - a project of the Federal Government.
    4. The Telegraph (and by extension the telephone, the internet, etc.) - Again, financed by Congress.
    5. The US road system - interstates - financed by government of states..and then the federal.
    6. TVA, Hoover Dam and hundreds of similar power and development project - yep, Government again.
    7. Other inland and port navigation and dredging - yep....big bad government.
    8. Space - Government pork project
    9. Public health, disease prevention, vaccination - yeah, government meddling again.

    I could go on, but you get the picture! Oh, and BTW, which Trillion are you talking about? If you are talking about the 2009 Obama stim:
    1. total amount was about 800 billion.
    2. over 300 billion of that was tax cuts, which went into your pocket and mine.
    3. Vast sums are for infrastructure - roads, bridges, etc. which are still being worked on and will last for many years or decades.
    4. Other sums kept teachers on the job as well as police, etc.
    5. Other sums provided business incentives and tax credits
    6. Large sums went for medical and health care

    I'm sure there are many other parts, and the money given out so far is only about 1/2 of that - here, keep track of it:
    http://www.recovery.gov/Pages/home.aspx

    The problem I see is exemplified in your critique of rebates, etc.
    This is like complaining about hiring a painter, but then lamenting that your house is not painted! There has to be somewhere where reality translates into action, and rebates to consumers is one. Tax credits to business is another. Loan guarantees are yet another. All of these are happening to a small extent - small in relation to our overall economic and energy picture.

    This is no Manhattan Project of energy...and IMHO that is the scale we should be thinking along.

    The idea that we still control the worlds oil through American dollars and military might seems dated to me - but I could be wrong.
  4. lowroadacres

    lowroadacres Minister of Fire

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    While I may not be a particularly learned individual regarding the finer points of world politics I would suggest that concerning anything that China says it is doing regarding pollution and the environment needs to be tempered.

    It was not that long ago that Beijing hosted the Olympics. If I recall correctly there was much to do about the fact that in order to get air that was breathable during the games there were entire tracts of the country where the industrial areas were shut down for weeks prior to the games to ensure that the smog would drift off.

    This was also the country that painted lawn areas to make certain that the venues "looked" perfect.

    Now don't get me wrong, Western Culture is in decline and has been for a significant amount of time.

    History shows us that no culture can successfully navigate periods of either prosperity or power forever. North America, Europe, Asia are not exempt from this reality.

    When our part of the country, and this would be the prairie region of Western Canada, began the positive move towards electrification of every home things began to change rapidly. Suddenly things like true central heat were possible and conveniences began to appear.

    While I am not a luddite at all I would suggest that much of North America's challenges, particularly with the environment, are because of the concentration of waste and emissions around those areas where population has clustered in unsustainable numbers. The other places where the environment is at risk are those areas where we draw hard upon resources (ie/mining, oil production, large scale livestock production) to fuel, feed, and take care of the large population concentrations.

    I am still of the firm belief that this quote from Eisenhower can also be said about Energy use and production......

    "Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil and you're a thousand miles from the corn field." ~Dwight D. Eisenhower

    Without trying to sound trite as I point to myself...... How about we North Americans learn to buy less from polluters, try to use less power ourselves, grow more of our own food and quit empowering the corporate machine that churns out the Hollywood pap that makes the rest of the world want to be just like us.

    There is a reason that the Amish are some of the healthiest people in the world. And trust me this morning I am pointing at myself as I am in need of a good reminder.
  5. jharkin

    jharkin Minister of Fire

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    I seemed to have stirred up things with my comments about China and coal. I was just making some observations of what I saw when I was briefly there.


    The bigger problem is that this NEED FOR GROWTH is eventually going to kill us all. Its not just CHina, its the US and all the rest of the world too. OUr eceonomy needs growth to function. Without growth you have contraction, recession, hyperinflation or deflation and then hte whole sytem comes apart.

    So what happens as our natural resources - oil, coal, precious metals, topsoil, etc each start to run out one by one? Might be next year, or next decade, or maybe next century but it is going to happen.

    Contrary to what economists seem to believe you cant keep economic growth going indefinitely with finite resources.
  6. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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    Unlimited growth is a fallacy and a coverup for outright theft from the next generations. Without sustainable growth or stasis, we will soon run out of resources necessary for growth and eventually, survival. Then it will be the bacteria, viruses and cockroaches that carry on. Soylent green tea anyone?
  7. yanksforever

    yanksforever Member

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    You mean the party of "NO"! You'll be hearing more about them in about a year to a year and a half. They say NO to everything...thats why nothing gets done!
  8. midwestcoast

    midwestcoast Minister of Fire

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    Well I was starting in on a big long post full of stuff that most in this forum have heard before, but instead, here's my take.
    The only way we can get our $#*@ together enough to tackle our energy problems is if we recognize an outside threat that's menacing & immediate enough to scare us into setting aside petty differences & getting down to work (hard and fast). Through-out history that's the most common way that people have been brought together in large scale.
    If you ask me, global climate change, resource depletion, on-going mass-extinction... should be more than enough to bring most of the globe together, but it sure ain't happening in this country. So if America needs a scarier enemy than the possible collapse of human society, hey, why not China? They are huge, powerful, growing quickly and even Communist!! (sorta). America, China will kill us (economically speaking) with wind turbines and electric cars!! Uncle Sam Needs You! So pitch-in to increase efficiency, build an alternative energy infrastructure and innovate the technology of the future!!!
    Keep pounding those drums for a while & maybe we'll finally get rolling on this. Hopefully we could manage it without purges & internment camps...
  9. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    We have no energy problems. We have (use) more than anyone else.
  10. begreen

    begreen Mooderator Staff Member

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  11. btuser

    btuser Minister of Fire

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    b

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