Wow, they're blaming a wood stove for this tragic fire.

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SethB2 said:
EngineRep said:
SethB2 said:
stoveguy2esw said:
if the woodstove was involved somthing wasnt being done correctly.

Wait ... so my wood stove isn't supposed to burn my house down?

Seth, I believe the point Mike is making is that it was probably something the folks in the house did improperly (clearance to combustibles or something like that) and NOT an inherent safety issue in the stove itself.

Well yeah. I thought that was fairly obvious.

proper installations , and operating procedures are an absolute MUST when you bring a fire into your home! we in the industry as well as firefighters and other safety oriented officials work hard to ensure that things like this do not happen. unfortunately they still sometimes do.

Information is the biggest key. safety programs such as "[b]operation smoke detector[/b]" and others are a tremendous help in the fight to ensure threads like this are not commonplace.

my meaning in the statement i made earlier is that if the stove was a proper , UL listed product , installed corectly into a proper flue system , inspected and approved by a trained inspector, and operated within the parameters of its listing. the odds of a catastrophic failure of a woodstove itself are extremely long. it was not a statement to deflect anything, nor was it meant as a slur against any involved party. at this point also it is merely a guess by the fireman or whoever made the statement that it was involving the stove, it could very well have been but i have serious doubts that the stove itself could have failed. so, i am thinking that if the stove was involved in the fire it wasnt a direct failure of the stove itself , possibly a clearance issue with a wall or somthig flammable may have been inadvertantly placed too close and allowed to ignite.
 
So say you were the previous owner of that house. Say you were the one that installed the stove without a permit. If it "caused" the fire you would be pretty nervous wouldn't you? Doesn't really matter if you thought it was installed properly if the house was burned to the ground. All evidence of your illegal, but proper, installation is gone. Get your permits, get it inspected, and keep it swept.

Firemen love to blame electrical wiring and woodstoves for fires. It is almost the default position.
 
Sadly, almost any form of heat used, installed, or maintained improperly can have tragic consquences. Every few years we read of a tragedy here in sunny So. Calif. caused by folks (still) using unvented gas heaters, using nat. gas stove to heat, or even charcol burners indoors. Or from portable 'lectric heaters knocked over or conctacting flammable materials. And improperly vented nat. gas furnaces kill with CO poisoning. Some of these tragedies happen more often than others.

My prayers for the victims and even more for the survivor. I'm sure if it were me, I too would have had to be held back. Heck, prolly even if I knew I wouldn't make it out. With his family in there, not being able to rescue them, or die trying, must have torn him apart. Who here, in those circumstances, would NOT have tried to get back in?

Peace,
- Sequoia
 
My sympathies are with the family. I did think it was unusual that the the boyfriend fathered a child at 12 years of age.(if I read correctly)
 
Highbeam said:
So say you were the previous owner of that house. Say you were the one that installed the stove without a permit. If it "caused" the fire you would be pretty nervous wouldn't you? Doesn't really matter if you thought it was installed properly if the house was burned to the ground. All evidence of your illegal, but proper, installation is gone. Get your permits, get it inspected, and keep it swept.

Firemen love to blame electrical wiring and woodstoves for fires. It is almost the default position.

Call me crazy, but here in Bangor we actually try to determine the real cause . . . no matter what it might be and typically only attribute electrical wiring as the cause if there is evidence that it was the cause and woodstoves (a generic term if the truth be told that lumps improper installation to clearances, improper use of fuel, etc.) if the woodstove was the cause . . . going as far to bring in our Electrical Inspector and State Fire Marshal if need be . . . and if we (and they -- the experts) cannot come to a decisive conclusion we are not afraid to call it as we see it and label the cause as unknown.
 
TreePapa said:
. . .

My prayers for the victims and even more for the survivor. I'm sure if it were me, I too would have had to be held back. Heck, prolly even if I knew I wouldn't make it out. With his family in there, not being able to rescue them, or die trying, must have torn him apart. Who here, in those circumstances, would NOT have tried to get back in?

Peace,
- Sequoia

True . . . most folks may try . . . but trust me many folks have never truly experienced the full power of a fire and contrary to what folks see on TV just the extreme heat of a fire will not allow you to get close to the fire without protection (and covering your mouth with a wet washcloth doesn't quite cut it as adequate protection.)

A number of years ago we had a tragic fire in my hometown . . . the quick synopsis . . . some autistic triplets in a home died along with our former Fire Chief (cardiac arrest) . . . the worse fire I have ever experienced . . . almost decided to quit as a volunteer after that fire . . . sadly I found out later that my wife actually beat me to the fire as she was a student nurse at the time and was one of the first folks on scene as she was coming home from school and saw the fire . . . she said the mother and her young daughter had just escaped the fire and was screaming for someone to rescue her three boys still inside . . . my wife and a couple of other neighbors tried to run inside . . . . couldn't get within 20 feet of the house due to the extreme heat (not to mention the smoke, CO and other toxic chemicals.)

Folks all say they will try to go inside (and some manage to do so) . . . a lucky few actually come out and may even save someone . . . many more end up dying and/or becoming the second (or third or fourth) person we need to rescue so now instead of concentrating all our resources on saving the people inside we now have to work twice as hard to get out the would-be rescuers.

Don't believe me . . . try this little experiment with your spouse or children (this is something I do with high school students to make a point. I show a video where the temps spike to 1,400 degrees F (about 3 times the hottest setting on your oven), thick, black smoke obscures the room/home and in about five minutes time the windows in the room/home are blown out as the fire seeks out a new oxygen source . . . I believe however while the video is good folks will still be convinced that they can and will attempt a rescue -- after all, love conquers all, right?

Tonight have your spouse or child leave the room or house . . . just have them wait outside the room/exterior door. Take a teddy bear and tell them that this is you . . . or a brother, sister, etc. and that you're pretending that there is a fire and while they escaped this person did not. Now time the person from the time it takes to enter the room/house to the time it takes to get the bear and then get out from the home. In most cases quite honestly time should not be an issue.

Now blindfold the person and do this same experiment again. You may want to move the position of the bear (because let's face it, folks don't always stay right in the same spot that they were when they went to bed . . . children hide, go to their parent's room, etc. In most cases the time it takes to do this experiment doubles or triples . . . and the only thing you have done is take away the person's vision . . . they're not having to deal with the extreme heat, choking smoke, CO levels, etc.

The fact is folks that have escaped a fire are not prepared to go back inside to attempt a rescue. They don't have the training . . . they don't have the bunker/turnout gear that firefighters wear to protect them from the high heat . . . and they don't have the air pack to protect them from the smoke/CO.

A few facts I tell folks in my fire safety classes . . .

-- Smoke detectors save lives. Plain and simple -- they're cheap and they work . . . providing that they work. Sadly, in most fatalities folks are in homes without detectors or without working detectors. Buy 'em and keep 'em up and running. Just having one detector more than doubles your chance of surviving a fire -- and in general the more you have the greater the chance of surviving a fire (the only better odds come if you're in a home or apartment with a sprinkler system -- then your odds go up to 80%).

-- Fire prevention is the first step to not even getting put into this situation. Get into the habit of thinking about how fires could start and take steps to prevent them. Know the common causes -- unfortunately many folks either know they're doing something dangerous and do it anyway (i.e. using gasoline to start a wood fire) or do not know what they are doing can have lethal consequences (i.e. not realizing floor protection requirements and stove clearances are there for a reason and not just an arbitrary rule or number.)

-- Don't expect us to save you . . . occasionally we get lucky, make a save and it gets front page billing and is the lead story on the news. Most often however, we don't get there in time. Teach your family what to do in a fire (i.e. get out when you hear the smoke detector, stay out, etc.) and most important of all . . . refer back to the first thing I said -- smoke detectors save lives, but not if they're absent or not working.

-- People often ask me what I would do if my wife was inside a burning building . . . to which I reply I have done everything in my power to make sure that I never have to face that situation. I have working detectors, we have talked over our escape plan, we have fire extinguishers in the home and we attempt to practice good fire prevention . . . having a good fire prevention plan in place will hopefully prevent a fire from occurring . . . and if a fire occurs having smoke detectors and an escape plan will hopefully prevent either one of us from still being inside the home if a fire does break out.
 
stoveguy2esw said:
SethB2 said:
EngineRep said:
SethB2 said:
stoveguy2esw said:
if the woodstove was involved somthing wasnt being done correctly.

Wait ... so my wood stove isn't supposed to burn my house down?

Seth, I believe the point Mike is making is that it was probably something the folks in the house did improperly (clearance to combustibles or something like that) and NOT an inherent safety issue in the stove itself.

Well yeah. I thought that was fairly obvious.

proper installations , and operating procedures are an absolute MUST when you bring a fire into your home! we in the industry as well as firefighters and other safety oriented officials work hard to ensure that things like this do not happen. unfortunately they still sometimes do.

Information is the biggest key. safety programs such as "[b]operation smoke detector[/b]" and others are a tremendous help in the fight to ensure threads like this are not commonplace.

my meaning in the statement i made earlier is that if the stove was a proper , UL listed product , installed corectly into a proper flue system , inspected and approved by a trained inspector, and operated within the parameters of its listing. the odds of a catastrophic failure of a woodstove itself are extremely long. it was not a statement to deflect anything, nor was it meant as a slur against any involved party. at this point also it is merely a guess by the fireman or whoever made the statement that it was involving the stove, it could very well have been but i have serious doubts that the stove itself could have failed. so, i am thinking that if the stove was involved in the fire it wasnt a direct failure of the stove itself , possibly a clearance issue with a wall or somthig flammable may have been inadvertantly placed too close and allowed to ignite.

I suspect you are right . . . I cannot think of a single instance where the woodstove caused the fire . . . typically it was a stove too close to combustibles, unapproved floor protection, improper disposal of ashes/coals (a biggie by the way), a chimney fire, improper use of fuels, improper venting, etc.

However in most cases it is easier for the fire investigators (on reports and in the message to the media) to lump all these true causes under the heading of woodstove instead of being more specific and saying for example that the cause was due to an improper install, inadequate floor protection, etc. That's the bad news . . . the good news is that I am seeing more investigators making an effort around here at least to be more specific about the actual cause of the fire . . . whether it involves a woodstove, cooking appliance, electrical or what have you.
 
Just read this one at the this year's "Darwin Awards." If true, I wonder how it was reported in the paper. "Fireplace burns house down", or "dumb guy burns fireplace down."

A young Canadian man, searching for a way of getting drunk cheaply, because he had no money with which to buy alcohol, mixed gasoline with milk. Not surprisingly, this concoction made him ill, and he vomited into the fireplace in his house. This resulting explosion and fire burned his house down, killing both him and his sister.
 
Highbeam said:
So say you were the previous owner of that house. Say you were the one that installed the stove without a permit. If it "caused" the fire you would be pretty nervous wouldn't you? Doesn't really matter if you thought it was installed properly if the house was burned to the ground. All evidence of your illegal, but proper, installation is gone. Get your permits, get it inspected, and keep it swept.

Firemen love to blame electrical wiring and woodstoves for fires. It is almost the default position.


i gotta say , HIGHBEAM hit on an important topic with this , not saying that the previous owner may or may not have been involved due to improper install , thats PURE SPECULATION. but, the point he brings to my mind is this and hopefully folks browsing the forum may read this and gain from it.

anyone considering buying a house which is equipped with a hearth appliance or chimney should INSIST on a proper inspection by a certified professional be part of the contract for the purchase.

i spoke once a while back with a realtor who had contacted me concerning just such a situation , she was listing a house which had one of my stoves installed. she did not have anyevidence that it was a permitted install. i recommended strongly that she locate a certified inspector do a level 2 or higher inspection of the flue and the appliance.

a level 2 inspection is required by code when installing a new appliance into an existing flue anyway so it should be the lowest level inspection accepted by a prospective home buyer on a home so equipped prior to purchase.
 
One thing is for sure. Mr DeRoose is going to need some serious therapy after that event. I know I would. :exclaim:

FFJake touched on the main problem. The IR energy coming off a fire that big and that hot is just unimaginable. I got a taste of it a few weeks ago when I was starting up some equipment for a new fire simulator for Howard County (MD). They had an LP fueled burn pit that I couldn't get within 30 feet of and they were complaining that it wasn't hot enough!

Unless the cause were immediately obvious, the preliminary report is going to be deliberately vague. If the cops investigating a traffic accident can't find an immediate cause, they will report it as "speed too fast for conditions" or to other similar causes. The actual investigation may take weeks to complete and is often something completely unexpected. No judgment should be passed until the final report is out.

Those of us that know better should pause and reflect on what we know about the subject. Sometimes we cut a corner or get careless and these stories should make us think about what we're doing. I KNOW that live coals can still cause a fire for 2 days after shoveling out the ashes, so the can sits outside on concrete for at least a week before it gets dumped. Overkill in the clearances and operation of a stove are never a waste of time.

I'm gonna go check out new smoke detectors in the AM.

Chris
 
Many good points in this thread. It is good that we are paying attention to this.

I have one question for FFJake.

What is the chance of this fire getting a good investigation so we can learn from this terrible event?
 
BJ64 said:
Many good points in this thread. It is good that we are paying attention to this.

I have one question for FFJake.

What is the chance of this fire getting a good investigation so we can learn from this terrible event?

I can only really speak to investigations undertaken here in Bangor or in my hometown of Unity.

That said . . . I would suspect that this fire will be thoroughly inspected since it was a multi-fatality fire (not that all fires aren't investigated thoroughly . . . it's just that fatal fires seem to involve more investigators which means more eyes, ears and knowledge to offer opinions on the cause and origin of the fire.)

From my limited experiences with the folks in the fire service in New York I can say they seem to be proactive in terms of inspections, investigations and fire prevention so I would suspect the State will be involved . . . and once again due to the multi-fatal fire I wouldn't be all that surprised to see the NFPA get involved as well.
 
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