Economics

[begreen]

Working at a drive through is a high school job, meant to earn enough to buy a crappy car, and have gas money, not support a family. If you want nice things in life you have to work for it, it's not given away.

That used to be true before so many jobs were off-shored or replaced by robots. Now people are taking these jobs just to try to stay afloat.

 

[Sodbuster]

I'm saying this because prices have gone up but wages have not. You are not the norm as an employer. My wife's agency didn't offer her a damn thing after they told her to stay home (her client's mother traveled to FL so the agency is keeping my wife home). Taking care of the people that live on this planet together should not be a political statement.

That statement is very geographic in nature. In our county unemployment is so low, that McDonalds is now starting their employees at $12.50 an hour, where only a short time ago it was $8 an hour. The market and the employment rate dictate wages.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Working at a drive through is a high school job, meant to earn enough to buy a crappy car, and have gas money, not support a family. If you want nice things in life you have to work for it, it's not given away.

Thats the problem,those who try to make a career out of it ,then complain they cant support a family when it was never meant to support a family. Barely can support 1 person. I would say most of those doing this in my area are well out of high school. (if they ever finished)

 

[SpaceBus]

I agree with this. Problem is the government have budgeted that a portion of us want to make more money and will put in the hours to do it, we'd run even bigger deficits if OT was tax free.



If that's all they want to do is stand at a drive through and take orders then they deserve to be paid at the value of the service they provide. Who would become a teacher, doctor, lawyer, engineer, or any other profession or skilled trade if the people completing menial jobs got paid the same, or anywhere close to the same? Hard work is rewarded with money, that is the basis of employment and fair compensation for it.

You are assuming that people want to be degraded and demeaned by folks like you. We need drive through techs, cashiers, janitors, etc. And those people need to be paid appropriately. Doctors, lawyers, etc are also underpaid. You keep hearing exclusively that I want low end jobs to be paid more. All jobs are under paid. Also, it costs a lot less to become a professional because of the education requirements, which are massively expensive. This is a barrier to entry for poor folks and many others. The whole system is fucked, not just the bottom rungs.



Also, let's not forget that NONE of us WANT to work, we HAVE to work. I don't know about you all, but fishing or lounging in the sun with my family is much better than most other things on this planet.

 

[SpaceBus]

Thats the problem,those who try to make a career out of it ,then complain they cant support a family when it was never meant to support a family. Barely can support 1 person. I would say most of those doing this in my area are well out of high school. (if they ever finished)

There are not enough teenagers, and would you rather see kids or parents employed. The fact that there are less jobs than people, and that number continues to drop, should make this picture much clearer to you.

Why do you assume poor people are so different from you? When given the opportunity to be successful, most people will pick it. I laughed at your "dregs" comment from another thread, but it paints the picture of how you feel about folks in a lower socioeconomic bracket than yourself, they are less than human.

 

[SpaceBus]

That statement is very geographic in nature. In our county unemployment is so low, that McDonalds is now starting their employees at $12.50 an hour, where only a short time ago it was $8 an hour. The market and the employment rate dictate wages.

No, the fed increased min wage.

 

[festerw]

Not adjusted for inflation the minimum wage is less now than it was in 1968 when it peaked. Adjusted it would be 11.80/hr.

At current minimum you'll have a salary of 15,080/year, the cheapest single bedroom apartment in my area will run you 4800/year, health insurance average is 5000 for a single, average food cost is 3000/year, average utilities are $2000/year. After all that you have roughly $300 left over for the year, before taxes.

This pandemic is bringing out the 40 year in the making worker crisis. Large companies have lobbied the government and have held back hourly rates and benefits for the sake of profits and now it's coming home to roost.

The "best" economy was a house of cards built with cheap and outsourced labor to save pennies on the dollar.

To big to fail and bail out are a cop out when you are reporting multi billion dollar profits but not banking much for a downturn but then chastise the workers for not being able to save 6 months of living expenses in case of lay offs.

Plenty of people saw this coming but didn't know what the spark was that would set it off.

 

[ABMax24]

You are assuming that people want to be degraded and demeaned by folks like you. We need drive through techs, cashiers, janitors, etc. And those people need to be paid appropriately. Doctors, lawyers, etc are also underpaid. You keep hearing exclusively that I want low end jobs to be paid more. All jobs are under paid. Also, it costs a lot less to become a professional because of the education requirements, which are massively expensive. This is a barrier to entry for poor folks and many others. The whole system is fucked, not just the bottom rungs.



Also, let's not forget that NONE of us WANT to work, we HAVE to work. I don't know about you all, but fishing or lounging in the sun with my family is much better than most other things on this planet.

I guess I come from a different country and also a different viewpoint. Here for those that try hard enough there are ways to pay for school, the government covers the bulk of the cost with scholarships, bursaries, and student loans available to cover the difference. Up until very recently in this area there have always been more jobs than people to fill them, if you are working full time at McDonalds it's because you choose to, not because you have to. At the company I work at starting wage is $20/hr which works out to almost $60k/year at the hours we work. And this is entry level work, no high school diploma required, 2 feet and a heartbeat as most people say. And within 6 months most can be making $25/hr if they apply themselves, and can be over $40 in a few years if they start and complete an apprenticeship.

I have had numerous people work for me over the years that fail to apply themselves to get raises or climb the ladder. They'd rather put in as little effort as possible and complain they don't make enough. I have an example, this person has worked for me for 7 years, in that time they tried to start a trade, but were kicked out of the trade because the failed to pay the $35 entrance fee, they also tried to run equipment, but only want to run half of the equipment in the yard and couldn't be bothered to learn the other machines. This same person makes the above mentioned $60k/year and yet has to bum smokes off everyone in the yard because they can't afford a pack. Seems to me in many of thee cases their poor life choices are to blame, not the employers pay scale.

So is the degrading and demeaning, yeah probably, do I feel sorry for the person however when they were the ones that put themselves there, not one bit. I know this seems harsh, but as my grandmother said "god only helps those that help themselves". I will go out of my way to help those that need it when they too are willing to put in the effort to change their situation.

 

[SpaceBus]

I guess I come from a different country and also a different viewpoint. Here for those that try hard enough there are ways to pay for school, the government covers the bulk of the cost with scholarships, bursaries, and student loans available to cover the difference. Up until very recently in this area there have always been more jobs than people to fill them, if you are working full time at McDonalds it's because you choose to, not because you have to. At the company I work at starting wage is $20/hr which works out to almost $60k/year at the hours we work. And this is entry level work, no high school diploma required, 2 feet and a heartbeat as most people say. And within 6 months most can be making $25/hr if they apply themselves, and can be over $40 in a few years if they start and complete an apprenticeship.

I have had numerous people work for me over the years that fail to apply themselves to get raises or climb the ladder. They'd rather put in as little effort as possible and complain they don't make enough. I have an example, this person has worked for me for 7 years, in that time they tried to start a trade, but were kicked out of the trade because the failed to pay the $35 entrance fee, they also tried to run equipment, but only want to run half of the equipment in the yard and couldn't be bothered to learn the other machines. This same person makes the above mentioned $60k/year and yet has to bum smokes off everyone in the yard because they can't afford a pack. Seems to me in many of thee cases their poor life choices are to blame, not the employers pay scale.

So is the degrading and demeaning, yeah probably, do I feel sorry for the person however when they were the ones that put themselves there, not one bit. I know this seems harsh, but as my grandmother said "god only helps those that help themselves". I will go out of my way to help those that need it when they too are willing to put in the effort to change their situation.

You are missing the fact that you still NEED people in those demeaning jobs that you are so high above. Also, the US government does not have many of the social programs in Canada, hence the thread. People at the bottom of the ladder deserve happiness as well. Who is going to cook your hamburgers when you are too lazy to cook it yourself? It's easy to call folks at the bottom lazy when you depend on those folks to be lazy yourself. Janitors and fast food employees have become more crucial now than ever, risking their live so folks like you can demean them.

 

[Sodbuster]

No, the fed increased min wage.

Yes, from 9.45 to 9.65, the 12.50 I'm seeing is market driven. If they paid the minimum wage they'd have no employees.

 

[festerw]

No, the fed increased min wage.

Yes, from 9.45 to 9.65, the 12.50 I'm seeing is market driven. If they paid the minimum wage they'd have no employees.

Federal minimum wage is still $7.25, a lot of state have independently raised it but nearly half still are still at the Federal rate.

Minimum Wage by State – Updates for 2023

Your essential 2023 guide to navigating minimum wage rates, including the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour. Stay compliant and informed.

www.paycor.com

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Why do you assume poor people are so different from you? When given the opportunity to be successful, most people will pick it. I laughed at your "dregs" comment from another thread, but it paints the picture of how you feel about folks in a lower socioeconomic bracket than yourself, they are less than human.

A strange analogy as my income is in most case LESS than those i pay to do work for me. So im not looking down on anyone. But its not about income at all so much as how you spend it . Just about everyone in america has the opportunity to be sucessful but not necessarily the ambition to do so. And yes i do consider drug dealers,thieves,and wife beaters,and those who are a cancer to a normal functioning society "dregs" and we get more than our share from the city for a small quiet town.

 

[SpaceBus]

Yes, from 9.45 to 9.65, the 12.50 I'm seeing is market driven. If they paid the minimum wage they'd have no employees.

My mistake, it's probably a state increase. It's 12/hr here in Maine.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

You are missing the fact that you still NEED people in those demeaning jobs that you are so high above.

Why do you continue to call low paying jobs "demeaning" . Nothing demeaning about any job. Its more demeaning to set around and do nothing. When i worked as a dishwasher i was just as proud to work hard and support myself as i was with any other job i ever did. Your attaching a stigma to those jobs by calling them demeaning.

 

[begreen]

The new economy. How to wipe out debt, literally.

 

[SpaceBus]

Why do you continue to call low paying jobs "demeaning" . Nothing demeaning about any job. Its more demeaning to set around and do nothing. When i worked as a dishwasher i was just as proud to work hard and support myself as i was with any other job i ever did. Your attaching a stigma to those jobs by calling them demeaning.

You are the one that said the jobs are only worthy of kids. I don't have the stigma, simply pointing out how min wage jobs are seen by the many. Are only professionals allowed to have families?

 

[ABMax24]

You are missing the fact that you still NEED people in those demeaning jobs that you are so high above. Also, the US government does not have many of the social programs in Canada, hence the thread. People at the bottom of the ladder deserve happiness as well. Who is going to cook your hamburgers when you are too lazy to cook it yourself? It's easy to call folks at the bottom lazy when you depend on those folks to be lazy yourself. Janitors and fast food employees have become more crucial now than ever, risking their live so folks like you can demean them.

I'm not sure what you want me to tell you. I'm not going to pay Ferrari prices for a Ford, and I'm sure not paying $20 for a hamburger, so if that means burger flippers get paid low so be it. In the last 4.5 years here in Alberta the minimum wage has went from $10.20 to $15. Guess what, fast food now costs more, gas stations have let go of most of their gas jockeys and went to self serve, restaurants force waiters to wait more tables to keep staffing costs down, many businesses have reduced the number of summer students they take on. And after all that they are calling on the government to increase minimum wage yet again. When does it stop? Many of these businesses mentioned above are small family businesses that don't have a large cash flow to start with, increasing wages almost 50% in 3 years broke some of them.

Now if we want to talk about the large moral-less companies like Wal-Mart, then I agree they need to be kicked to the curb for a multitude of reasons. One being the monopoly they have over employment while running local businesses out of town, and the other the outsourcing of manufacturing to third world countries and China.

I will not back down on my stance of pay based on value provided. It is not my job nor anyone else's to subsidize the low-skill workers in these positions. Automation is just around the corner for these jobs anyway, it really wouldn't be all that hard to fully automate a McDonald's restaurant, and I'd bet dollars to donuts that McDonald's is already looking at this.

 

[SpaceBus]

Almost everyone is underpaid, not just the people at the bottom. Nobody said you have to buy a Honda for Ducati money, but it's pretty horrible to say that folks working in jobs, that you as a consumer demand, don't deserve to live on 40 hrs a week. Maybe instead of blaming the wages you should blame the employers. Perhaps just as a fry cook doesn't deserve professional pay, a ceo doesn't deserve a nation's GDP as a salary either.

 

[ABMax24]

But not every business is a corporation with a millionaire CEO, there are many that are small businesses just struggling to get by, where will this extra cash come from? Will you as a consumer agree to pay say 25% more so the staff can have an equal wage increase? Would that then affect your buying choices causing you to spend money at these places less often because of the cost increase using more of your disposable income?

I have access to some of the financial information for the jobs we do, I'd love to say I'm underpaid, but I know the company makes very little on the work we do, and by far our biggest expense is labor, there is no more room to pay staff more.

I would agree there is a wealth distribution issue in most of the developed world, but almost every solution people propose just takes money from the middle class to give to the lower class and vice versa. Increasing wages would do the same, the rich will just pass this cost along to other classes. How do you make incentives to the rich to share their wealth when the only incentive they want is more wealth?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

You are the one that said the jobs are only worthy of kids. I don't have the stigma, simply pointing out how min wage jobs are seen by the many. Are only professionals allowed to have families?

Where did i say that? I said those jobs were not meant to be careers. I suspect thats how you see those jobs, as demeaning. I do not . I see them as starter jobs,entry level jobs, training jobs. Nothing demeaning about them,or any other kind of honest work.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

But not every business is a corporation with a millionaire CEO, there are many that are small businesses just struggling to get by, where will this extra cash come from?

Bingo! Many small business owners make less than the people they hire,i l know because im one of them. And i also do taxes for some of them. There are millions of small businesses in this country. Its easy to say everyone should make more money. Try starting a business and see just how easy it is not.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Almost everyone is underpaid,

Solution: Start a business and pay them more. Problem solved. See how easy that was?

 

[Seasoned Oak]

. When does it stop? Many of these businesses mentioned above are small family businesses that don't have a large cash flow to start with, increasing wages almost 50% in 3 years broke some of them.

Those who have never owned of tried to start a business will never understand that concept. The end result of $15 min wage will put many out of work. The country is not a one size fits all when it comes to wages. What works in NYC does not necessarily work in rural america.

 

[NickW]

As a society too many "wants" that we think are needs, and that doesn't change with "class". What 10 year old needs a smartphone? How many of us really NEED a smartphone? And look at the generation coming out for jobs. So many with a sense of entitlement but no work ethic. Spend time on their mobile phones instead of working.

Then we won't even go in depth regarding social programs. I'm a strong believer in them, but they have to be done correctly. Free handouts result in desire for more free handouts... "Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day; teach a man to fish, you feed him for a lifetime..." It's not society's fault if you refuse to learn to fish...

 

[bholler]

A strange analogy as my income is in most case LESS than those i pay to do work for me. So im not looking down on anyone. But its not about income at all so much as how you spend it . Just about everyone in america has the opportunity to be sucessful but not necessarily the ambition to do so. And yes i do consider drug dealers,thieves,and wife beaters,and those who are a cancer to a normal functioning society "dregs" and we get more than our share from the city for a small quiet town.

Not all of the dregs in your area are imports. There are plenty of home grown ones.