2021/22 VC Owner thread

[moresnow]

I mean zero disrespect and hope it is not taken that way. Getting your money's worth is what it's all about. I am a BK user for sure. Would I use another brand? In a New York second! Only because I am a wood stove junkie in general. Always looking for an excuse to try something new. Still trying to justify a Woodstock stove.... For no other reason than comparison as I've heard positive reviews.
Ashpans are another potential air intrusion/gasket maintenance concern to me. Not a pan fan but to each there own.
I've never owned a top load stove. Can't say I wouldn't enjoy it? Who knows? I am a N/S loader in the BK's.
I don't cook on my stove's. I also don't boil H20 on them. I have other appliances I simply prefer.
I would not own or recommend a BK without the optional fans. From experience.

The visuals from a VC are certainly very nice. Kind of the least of my concern in a 24/7 heating appliance. Just my opinion.

 

[arnermd]

Thanks to all for your thoughts. I really appreciate this forum. A couple things I took away:

• Older cat stoves close down secondary air as temp increases. This is contrary to what I thought before, I stand corrected.
• I have run for years with all 8 secondary inlet holes plugged, it calmed the stove down quite a bit, but I am still getting regular cat temps north of 1600 - 1700.
• I have not tried restricting the secondary air at the inlet (I do have a separate secondary air inlet). I will give that a shot, steel wool will work nicely there. Unfortunately at the moment I am cat-less..... But I can fix that easily with an online order to Condor for $120.... I should put it on automatic re-order, every two years send me a new cat.....
• gthomas: I think I know the area you are talking about..... is it where I circled below? Right at the seam of the front/rear fireback? The refractory comes with small formed channels there to let fresh secondary in through that seam. A quick look at the service manual for the Encore 2040, looks just like mine, just smaller.
• 
• Now that I think about it, it does seem like the cat temps will be stable initially at 1100 - 1200 and then spike over 1600 in 10 minutes or so and hang there. I am wondering if something is "opening up" at temp and creating another source of air for the cat.

And since I have been burning without the cat, I can still get secondary temps to 1400, but it takes longer to get there and the temps don't hang there for hours, if I close down the primary air the temps will come down. I also see them bouncing around 1400 - 800 - 1200 - 700 over the course of a couple hours. I think all these behaviors make sense given the catalyst is not there to keep things burning at peak eff.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

I think your next step (as you stated) is to start restricting the secondary air coming in. Maybe get a couple of small magnets and use tinfoil to completely block the inlet. This will give you both ends of the spectrum. Then you can dial it in from there.

 

[John B]

perhaps your thermometer is inaccurate. I have 3 currently that all read too high only when burning above 1200 degrees. They will make 1400 look like 1700+. Best to check hottest Stove top temps with an IR gun and compare to thermo readings, generally top will be half the cat temp.

 

[arnermd]

perhaps your thermometer is inaccurate. I have 3 currently that all read too high only when burning above 1200 degrees. They will make 1400 look like 1700+. Best to check hottest Stove top temps with an IR gun and compare to thermo readings, generally top will be half the cat temp.

Yeah that's a possibility, I am using a type K thermocouple with a watlow controller for readout. I trust it but I can't prove it.... I do see other indications of overheat in the secondary like, signs of refractory distress / spalling, Cat crumbling with severe metal frame warping, I can hear a distinct sound when it goes nuclear. So I am pretty sure it is over temping.....

Yesterday I ran a full load with no cat, secondary air inlet completely blocked.

• Nice bed of coals, left the secondary bypassed and got the griddle to 450, exhaust pipe at 500, lots of flame, engaged the secondary, secondary temp went to700 and slowly climbed over an hour to 1200 and stabilized.
• About an hour later secondary went to 1500-1600. Throttled primary air to full closed.
• No flames, just an orange glow, temps hung at ~1550 for about an hour. Griddle was kind of cold at ~350. Glass got smoked up.
• Finally gave up and opened the bypass, secondary temps dropped to ~800, left it there with no air for about 45 min.
• Reengaged secondary and went 25% air, secondary went to ~1000 and stabilized
• Added more air, 50% open, and temps dropped to 900 and then slowly decayed for the rest of the 6 hours burn.

Yesterday my thought was I have an air leak, so I candled every seam I could get to and only found a very small leak near the glass door handle where the two doors meet. I also noticed if I just cracked the griddle very so slightly the firebox gasses would immediately ignite in a good puff. Tells me the stove is pretty tight, at least the primary firebox.....

Had a thought, maybe I waited to long the engage the secondary and all the hot coals were just sitting there with no air flow the heat is kind of trapped. Last nights burn I engaged the secondary much sooner and secondary temps only climbed to 800 or so. Maybe it is a thermal momentum thing.....

This morning I reinstalled the 8 blocking screws, should not matter as I have inlet 100% blocked with foil, but easy to try. We shall see what todays burn brings....

Also ordered a 4 channel TC data logger so I can collect temp data for the whole burn. "PerfectPrime TC0520, 4-Channels Thermocouple Thermometer K,J,E,T Type Data Logger" available on Amazon for ~$180

Best regards to all and thanks for the thoughts....

 

[trispad]

I have struggled with nearly the exact same issues as you describe @arnermd. I have found that I need to tighten the door handle (flip the inside closing knob over or remove the washer). I find the bottom left 3" of the right hand door does not seal as best as it could. I always had a hard time finding it with the flame method as it is under the door lip. The dollar bill method would show that this is the least tight of all the areas on the doors.

Some things I have found that you could look at, having dry wood, 15% is good, 18% is okay, 20% is to wet. With 20%, if I don't really burn the logs in before I close the damper, I get the huge off gassing of a log further into the burn which spikes the cat (see your 2nd bullet point above). What I figure is that the log does not really light at first, but once it has fully charred/dried out in the firebox it starts to off gas at a high rate and there is little to no flame in the firebox to burn the smoke before it hits the cat. I have found that also using large splits helps with this as well because there are fewer logs to off gas at different times in the burn process. When I say large, I mean I get 4 splits onto a bet of coals in a Defiant like yours.

I do block some of the intake ports. I have tried all 8 and have settled on 4. I have also tired covering the secondary intake behind the stove would cause me to crash the cat in the middle of the night if the air was too low.

If you don't trust your current thermocouple, you can do a rudimentary test by sticking it in ice water and then sticking it in boiling water test it.

Getting temp data logger is the right way to go for sure. Also, what kind of flue temps are you getting?

 

[arnermd]

I have struggled with nearly the exact same issues as you describe @arnermd. I have found that I need to tighten the door handle (flip the inside closing knob over or remove the washer). I find the bottom left 3" of the right hand door does not seal as best as it could. I always had a hard time finding it with the flame method as it is under the door lip. The dollar bill method would show that this is the least tight of all the areas on the doors.

Nice to know I am not alone, misery loves company. I know exactly what you are talking about with the flame method.... I will check it again with the dollar bill test. just to make sure. I have tried running with the door latch not fully seated to get more compression on the door seals, did not notice a difference. I see no change in the flame activity so I a fairly certain that's not it... but I will check it.

Some things I have found that you could look at, having dry wood, 15% is good, 18% is okay, 20% is to wet. With 20%, if I don't really burn the logs in before I close the damper, I get the huge off gassing of a log further into the burn which spikes the cat (see your 2nd bullet point above). What I figure is that the log does not really light at first, but once it has fully charred/dried out in the firebox it starts to off gas at a high rate and there is little to no flame in the firebox to burn the smoke before it hits the cat. I have found that also using large splits helps with this as well because there are fewer logs to off gas at different times in the burn process. When I say large, I mean I get 4 splits onto a bet of coals in a Defiant like yours.

You could be right, makes sense to me. I tend to do larger splits as you said and I agree it helps. Trouble with the big splits is you can only get so many in there and then at the top I like to have some smaller short ones to top it off.
Just checked the wood in my box and readings were about 12% along the split with the grain, ends were lower. Couple 2" rounds read 18% in the middle through the bark. Wood has been under cover for 2 years.

I do block some of the intake ports. I have tried all 8 and have settled on 4. I have also tired covering the secondary intake behind the stove would cause me to crash the cat in the middle of the night if the air was too low.

I noticed a big difference today with secondary inlet blocked and all 8 holes plugged, I struggled to get the secondary to 650F (no cat right now) with full air, griddle was crankin at 450-500, had to turn the air down to <50% as I could not remove any more clothing..... Secondary hung around 550 - 600 all afternoon. Obviously much too cold, but I am cautiously optimistic. We shall see. I can always remove a few screws easy enough to dial it in. We shall see what tonight's burn brings.... This mornings load is coming up on 12 hours an the griddle is still at 300, it was a very full load this morning but that's a bit longer than I am used to seeing. I guess less air will do that....

Assuming this fix holds consistently, it suggests to me air is leaking near the secondary inlet between the refractory and the base casting. I blocked the secondary by stuffing foil up into the port so the interface between the refractory and cast iron is not sealed. Maybe these areas here where I hatched in red.

If you don't trust your current thermocouple, you can do a rudimentary test by sticking it in ice water and then sticking it in boiling water test it.

Getting temp data logger is the right way to go for sure. Also, what kind of flue temps are you getting?

I have checked the TC's with an ice bath and boiling, they are pretty close, few degrees. Not sure how to reliably check them up at 1700 though.... I am pretty sure they are close enough.

Flue temps normally run about 250 but when the secondary goes nuclear they will climb to ~400. I have seen 500-600 when I have the secondary bypassed and flame is ripping through the damper. I use a magnetic bimetal on the pipe about 18" above the griddle. Never checked it for accuracy. I am sure it is reading low as it is not in the pipe itself..

 

[RandyBoBandy]

I’m not sure you are testing your MC correctly. Bring a few pieces in the house over night. Something straight grained and easy to resplit. Tomorrow split these pieces in half and check your MC on the freshly split face with the grain. This will give you accurate readings. Testing the ends, a cold piece, or an old face will tell you nothing.

 

[arnermd]

I’m not sure you are testing your MC correctly. Bring a few pieces in the house over night. Something straight grained and easy to resplit. Tomorrow split these pieces in half and check your MC on the freshly split face with the grain. This will give you accurate readings. Testing the ends, a cold piece, or an old face will tell you nothing.

Yep, You are correct of course.... I was being lazy.... I repeated the measurements following your instructions and here is what I found.

I did two fairly large splits, one oak, one ash. Probes against the grain or with the grain, did not really seem to matter.
Fresh split readings were much more consistent.

Species	Ends	Original Split face	Fresh split face
Oak	8-15%	10-15%	17.2-17.5%
Ash	5-11%	10-15%	16-17%

Subjectively I would say just by weight and feel these pieces are not as dry as typical for me, maybe because they were on the bigger side.

Last nights burn was uneventful, let the griddle get to 400 before I threw in the damper. Secondary settled in around 800 with 50% air.

This morning I was burning some odds and ends, loosely packed in the stove. Let the griddle go to 400, threw in the damper. Secondary jumped to 800 then slowly climbed up to 1200 with 100% air, lots of flame. Then it rocketed to 1400 in a few minutes so I closed down air to 50%. Secondary temps slowly decayed to 800 where it has been holding for a couple hours. Gridle is at 450, exhaust 275.

This result is encouraging in that I seem to be able to control the temps with the primary air lever. Not so before.
Secondary still seems a bit low to me, might try unplugging some of the 8 holes to see if I can move it up a bit.

Sarcasm alert
You know what would be great, if this stove had a bimetal actuator that would regulate secondary air to control the cat temps.... Something like this..... What a great idea.....

I hope all this is at least providing some entertainment value.....

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Ok. You have found your so called “regulated” secondary. My guess is this is the result of your previous screaming cat temps when the flapper goes past “zero” and starts to open up again on the top. Common problem. If you are going to entertain the idea of keeping it operational thean put a magnet on the bottom of the stove that will keep the flapper from going to far and opening back up on top. Honestly though I would disconnect the flapper from the secondary probe and leave it completely closed. Then fine tune your cat with the 8 holes. Also try operating your stove initially off of flue temps and not stove top temps. I have a flue probe so it reads differently from yours. I run my flue temps up to 600* then shut my damper. Primary is fully open. I then watch my cat temps. I start to close my primary in increments once the cat hits 800*. Eventually settling in with primary just about fully closed.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

We will get you burning good. We were all noobs at one point.

 

[arnermd]

We will get you burning good. We were all noobs at one point.

Hmmmm I may have created some confusion. The picture above is not my stove, it is from an older Encore. My stove does not have a flapper and is not regulated, that was my point. I wish my secondary was regulated. Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?

I have been using flue temps for secondary engagement, I throw mine in around 450-500 but it is a magnetic stick on type, flue gas is probably a bit hotter than my reading.

Noob: Sadly I can't use that as an excuse.... I have had this stove for 11 years, and I burn 24/7, 4 cords a year. I may be an idiot, but I am not a noob.... or this stove is possessed.....

Had the secondary go to 1660 today with 50% air.... I did not change a thing.... Closed air down to 0%, secondary cooled down to 800, set air back to 50%, secondary stable at 850-900..... I continue to be mystified. I still have secondary inlet completely plugged and all 8 holes plugged as well.

Temp logger coming on Saturday, hopefully next week I can share actual temp plots.

 

[gthomas785]

Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?

It never worked well. All those stoves either got modified or burned out from overfiring.

 

[arnermd]

It never worked well. All those stoves either got modified or burned out from overfiring.

Really? That's kind of depressing..... I have a buddy who has two encores and he has shown me data where the cat goes to 1200 and sits there all day long. Occasional excursion up 1300 - 1400.... Maybe he got lucky....

 

[gthomas785]

Really? That's kind of depressing..... I have a buddy who has two encores and he has shown me data where the cat goes to 1200 and sits there all day long. Occasional excursion up 1300 - 1400.... Maybe he got lucky....

I think under perfect draft conditions it may work ok

 

[Rusty18]

Mine had secondary air controls, now it has a piece of duct tape over the hole and the flapper bolted tight overtop of it. Once lit the cat runs double griddle plus about 200F. Once in a while it will still go nuclear if I reload and close the damper too soon but that’s op error on my part. Running 1100-1200 on the cat all I get out the stack is steam.
Prior to restricting the secondary it would light sooner/easier and burn maybe a touch cleaner but it would also spike over 1800F if I put more than one split in it at a time.
The only temp instrument on the stove I trust is the thermocouple.

 

[bbryan]

Looking for some quick advice. I had a new VC encore installed in the fall. Do to some unfortunate issues with the contractor, we only just got it inspected and approved to burn. I'm eager to start the first conditioning fires. I have heard that these first fires will cause quite a stink and that you want the windows open. Unfortunately it is also only ~10 degrees out today here in Rhode Island. Am I going to gas my family if I try to burn today or should I be patient until later in the week when we are supposed to have a 40 degree day. Thanks in advance for any insights. (the stove is not enamel if that is relevant)

 

[dmccoole]

Welcome! I had a new Encore in November. Start with 3 small quick fires. Each burnin fire releases some stove burn off but it wasn't that bad.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Hmmmm I may have created some confusion. The picture above is not my stove, it is from an older Encore. My stove does not have a flapper and is not regulated, that was my point. I wish my secondary was regulated. Seems to work well on the old stoves, why did they change it?

I have been using flue temps for secondary engagement, I throw mine in around 450-500 but it is a magnetic stick on type, flue gas is probably a bit hotter than my reading.

Noob: Sadly I can't use that as an excuse.... I have had this stove for 11 years, and I burn 24/7, 4 cords a year. I may be an idiot, but I am not a noob.... or this stove is possessed.....

Had the secondary go to 1660 today with 50% air.... I did not change a thing.... Closed air down to 0%, secondary cooled down to 800, set air back to 50%, secondary stable at 850-900..... I continue to be mystified. I still have secondary inlet completely plugged and all 8 holes plugged as well.

Temp logger coming on Saturday, hopefully next week I can share actual temp plots.

Haha. Oops my bad. I get it now. By no means did I intended to insult your abilities with your stove. These stoves can be very frustrating. Just when you think you have it figured out it decides to go all crazy on ya.
I have found sometimes mid burn the cat will spike. Mostly I experience this when there are large splits that might be a on the higher side of MC. What I think happens is the outer parts of the split are dryer and burn well. Once the inner, wetter parts start off gassing they seem to smoke more than burn creating a heavy work load for the cat. I find that 50% primary air setting does not work for me as a final setting. It’s merely an incremental stop on my way down to 10% open. Basically just off of fully closed.
Will your new logger have an alarm? I have an alarm set at 1550 on my AT100. This helps tremendously in keeping the cat from committing suicide.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Looking for some quick advice. I had a new VC encore installed in the fall. Do to some unfortunate issues with the contractor, we only just got it inspected and approved to burn. I'm eager to start the first conditioning fires. I have heard that these first fires will cause quite a stink and that you want the windows open. Unfortunately it is also only ~10 degrees out today here in Rhode Island. Am I going to gas my family if I try to burn today or should I be patient until later in the week when we are supposed to have a 40 degree day. Thanks in advance for any insights. (the stove is not enamel if that is relevant)

It’s hard to say. You could put a fan in the window if it gets to bad. I don’t remember my defiant stinking to terribly bad. Your first fire should be a really small one so it shouldn’t last too long. I would go for it.

 

[bbryan]

Welcome! I had a new Encore in November. Start with 3 small quick fires. Each burnin fire releases some stove burn off but it wasn't that bad.

Thanks! I went for it. First fire down! The smell wasn't good, but we closed the doors to the room and put a fan in the window. We all survived.

 

[bert670]

My VC Dauntless should be delivered/installed in the near future. If I was to purchase one of the battery powered electric temp probes people talk about on the forums, are there pre drilled holes on the stove/pipe to check fire temps and flue temps?

 

[RandyBoBandy]

My VC Dauntless should be delivered/installed in the near future. If I was to purchase one of the battery powered electric temp probes people talk about on the forums, are there pre drilled holes on the stove/pipe to check fire temps and flue temps?

I would go for the Auber Instruments AT100 or AT200. It plugs into the wall. So no batteries to replace. I have no idea how the newer stoves are in regards to the probe port. The older stoves had a hole in the casting but you had to hand drill a hole in the refractory box. As far as the stove pipe goes, no there is not a pre drilled hole. You will have to do that.

 

[arnermd]

Haha. Oops my bad. I get it now. By no means did I intended to insult your abilities with your stove. These stoves can be very frustrating. Just when you think you have it figured out it decides to go all crazy on ya.
I have found sometimes mid burn the cat will spike. Mostly I experience this when there are large splits that might be a on the higher side of MC. What I think happens is the outer parts of the split are dryer and burn well. Once the inner, wetter parts start off gassing they seem to smoke more than burn creating a heavy work load for the cat. I find that 50% primary air setting does not work for me as a final setting. It’s merely an incremental stop on my way down to 10% open. Basically just off of fully closed.
Will your new logger have an alarm? I have an alarm set at 1550 on my AT100. This helps tremendously in keeping the cat from committing suicide.

haha... no offense taken here, trust me, I thought it was funny.... 10 years in, still a noob.... hahaha

My new logger has an alarm and my old TC controllers have alarms as well. In October I set the cat alarm to 1400, by mid November I am tired of hearing it and I bump it up to 1750.... then it only goes off once in a while.

Data logger works well. Here is my first data set as of this morning, the monster reared its ugly head and I captured it. This is a fairly common episode (about 20% of my burns do this) engage the secondary, throttle back, all looks nice and stable then whamo.... to the moon Alice..... I took no action when it launched, just to see what it would do. 1650 is typical max for these events. I have seen it go as high as 1800....

So.... Tell me about your throttle down process? When you engage the cat you are at 100% air right? When do you cut back? How often do you cut the air back? What temps are you keying off of?

Picture of my current setup below. Couple things I changed today:
I added a flue gas temp TC, flue gasses are a lot hotter than my magnetic pipe temp indicates! Like 350F hotter.
I do not monitor the griddle directly with a TC, the collar TC is close, but picks up a lot of secondary heat.

 

[RandyBoBandy]

Well that data logger is pretty damn cool. One thing I noticed is you are chopping your primary air too much too fast (in my opinion).
A typical and very general schedule of my procedure:
Cold start.
-Large splits on bottom row, then medium, small, kindling and tinder on top. Light fire top down. Primary air fully open.
-Flue probe reads 600*=>close damper
-Cat reads 800*-1000* =>close primary 25%.
-Cat reads 1200*-1300* =>close primary 25%
-Cat reads 1400*-1450* =>close primary 25%
-Cat reads 1525*-1549* => find fully closed and open primary 5%.
I find fully closed by lightly moving the air lever back and forth until I hear the flapper hitting the frame. Then I just open the air slightly. This will put the brakes on the cat on it generally settles in to something between 1100-1400. Now there are many factors that take me off my routine, however this is a general and effective method for my set up.
I’ve been playing around with leaving the primary fully open until GT reads 500-550. It’s an interesting race at times between the cat and the GT. If the cat is reaching my no go zone before I can my GT to 500 I am forced to shut the primary down in 33% increments.
Following these methods keeps my stove out of 1550* and above.