25-PAH issues from factory

[jjwreil]

First off just want to say I love this forum. (Adding this, also realize how long this has gotten and I do apologize) Before this past winter I had never owned any kind of stove but after we decided to move from our oil furnace which kept breaking down I found the information in this forum very helpful in making our decision and learning about pellet stoves in general.

That being said we settled on a 25-PAH for a variety of reasons, cost, size of our home (1300sq ft), and solid reviews/recommendations. I live in Vermont so winter hits early and it gets cold, we weren't able to get the stove until Thanksgiving and set it up on 11/30 (arrived the prior week from Home Depot). Not knowing much about stoves I took a few recommendations, bought our pellets and proceeded to run the stove. It appeared to be working ok but we noticed we had to clean it excessivley and starting/staying running were issues.

These issues persisted and got worse over the next month, the burn pot which we were told had to be cleaned once every few days needed a full cleaning after 8 hours or less of use as it was totally clogged with thick ash. The window would soot up and the inside constantly needed the soot cleaned out. Being our first stove I talked to many people who had them and they all agreed it didn't sound right and didn't appear to be running right but other than that didn't have much suggestions. I held off on calling the company as we were trying to figure it out and kept cleaning/restarting/etc.

Finally had to call the company as I was unable to start the stove for all of a Sunday into Monday morning. I have two little ones in the house and this was when the cold really set in (around -20 overnight) so had to stay home from work so I could call support. Reported the numerous E-2 errors, issues starting, running, etc. The tech was very helpful and had me test the heat sensor, board, blower, etc and thought I could have a blower/board issues so he sent me a new one of each. Problems persisted even with replacing the control board, another issue with starting when it was really cold and another day off to call tech support. The gentleman had me go through a full cleaning, including exhaust chambers (tapping for removal, etc). The stove started up again and was running a little better but it wasn't long before the same issues with starting/running/etc persisted. Not being able to miss work again I called again from work and the guy I found is the one who was finally able to really help me figure out what was going on and he was awesome. With all of the issues with the burn pot, soot, stopping non stop, etc he said I could have an air leak and had me test my gaskets with a lighter to see if the flame gets pulled in. He even stayed after hours so he could help me when I returned home from work, I told him I did note the flame pulling under the door and above the ashpan, so he had me check gaskets.

Here is the factor issue...gaskets you say? There is supposed to be a gasket on the ash-pan? I informed him my ashpan has no gasket and with it locked in place I showed him how it would rattle and he could hear it over the phone. He diagnosed that was pretty much the cause of all my issues from the start, I never once had the vacuum so the stove has never run clean and has been on a roughly 2 month dirty burn. He proceeded to mail me a gasket and suggested I get some heat proof aluminum tape to seal the ash pan. We sealed it and it was a revelation, the stove started perfectly the first time, instead of a slow orange flame it was a bright strong yellow and there was no ash build up or soot on the window or elsewhere. The stove was finally running like everyone told me it should be running.

That was on a Friday, by the following Wednesday it was back to the lazy burn even with the seal in place. It is still regularly stopping after 8-10 hours of use and as we are in a cold spell numerous times we have gotten home or woken up to a house that is 40 degree's.

We are unsure of what to do next, I'm assuming that 2.5 months of running dirty is why even with the listed monthly cleaning from the manual it still runs poorly (when it runs). I don't have much faith a full cleaning will even return it to working order. I did speak with a few people at home depot and told them what it was missing and they were quite surprised and said I would need to deal with the company directly. Previously I spoke with the customer services manager and informed him of the issue from the factory and the problems its caused the family (missed days of work, $$$ spent on items, high power bills as we had to use space heaters when stove would not run) and he thanked me for reporting it and said there was nothing they could do but again thanked me.

I'm happy to try a full cleaning and hoping for opinions of those much more experienced with these stoves before I go that route, if it will help I'm all for it.

If it will help I have numerous pictures of my lazy flame, overflowing burn pot, etc. Made a point to document as many of the issues as I could.

Thanks again for anyone who takes the time to read this and offer their help.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Please post pictures of the install, we want to see it and in particular the venting both inside and outside.

Please provide a piece by piece listing of the vent including diameter and orientation.

Then a picture of the burn pot siting in its receptacle and outside the stove showing the pot from the sides, top, and bottom.

A picture of the gasketing on the door and the hopper.

Then provide the lower three burn settings and a picture of the fire at those settings.

 

[jjwreil]

Smokey, thank you very much for the reply, its appreciated! I took a number of pictures but will have to get the remainder when I stop the stove. The house is almost back up to 60 so I don't want to shut it down just yet to get the remainder of the pictures. I took what I could though and these include the Install, 2 pictures of the current flame with the base settings ( will capture the settings when I restart), Venting inside and outside, hopper gasketing, as well as 2 instances of the dirty burn pot after around 8 hours of burning, this is pretty typical since the stove was purchased, and 2 shots of the ash pan as it arrived from the factory.

Please post pictures of the install, we want to see it and in particular the venting both inside and outside.

Please provide a piece by piece listing of the vent including diameter and orientation.

Then a picture of the burn pot siting in its receptacle and outside the stove showing the pot from the sides, top, and bottom.

A picture of the gasketing on the door and the hopper.

Then provide the lower three burn settings and a picture of the fire at those settings.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

What is holding the ash pan against its gasket?

Do you get below the burn pot cleaned out and is it clear all the way to the OAK inlet outside and what kind of screening is there along with how open that wind defector is. This is the start of your air flow and anything a bit off at this point can foul up the entire system. Something as simple as too small a mesh can lead to enough frost formation on the screen to make a mess of the burn.

The same can be said about screening on the exhaust vent only at this end it is the ash that finds its way outside curtsey of the combustion blower.

Once we get the rest of the information it is a given that the entire stove and venting needs to be cleaned since the long term burning in its current state has more than likely made a good mess of the insides of that unit.

If you have a leaf blower with vacuum ability look up leaf blower trick on here and read.

 

[acammer]

I'm surprised Smokey didn't see this one - the burn pot flange (or possibly the cradle) is warped. Look at the pictures of the fire and the front left corner of the burn pot. Notice how the ash is blown away from that one spot? It's leaking a good bit of air there, and it's never going to run clean while it's doing that. I'd take a straight edge to the burn pot flange, and the cradle, and see if one or the other isn't straight - my money is on the burn pot, which is at least an easy fix (warranty claim to Englander).

Other than that Smokey is right on, you've gotta check all that venting and heat exchanger for build up at this point as it's probably really loaded up. Take a wooden hammer and be pretty vigorous about beating the heat exchanger (back of the fire box) when you have the two clean out covers off. Keep beating and vacuuming till nothing more comes out - even with normal use it takes me a few cycles with my stove. Also, agreed 100% on the intake possible issues - the factory screen is pretty fine and a damp snow in real cold temps wind/snow blown at that screen will clog it right up - I've been choked out by that a few times this winter, including the last two days. I'm working on a more complex wind/snow deflector to eliminate this problem long term. I would consider disconnecting the OAK (stuff a sock in it to keep the cold air out) and running on the inside air (not ideal, but it'll work for a few days test) once you have the burn pot issue fixed to eliminate the OAK from the equation.

It's gotta be hugely frustrating that you've had so many issues with this stove. I can tell you as another PAH owner it is possible to have it run nice and clean, and provide great heat. This forum is the place that can make sure you get there. Should it have worked right from the get go, absolutely. Your install looks good, so it's not on you. But at this point, if you're committed it, I bet we can get it dialed in.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'm surprised Smokey didn't see this one - the burn pot flange (or possibly the cradle) is warped. Look at the pictures of the fire and the front left corner of the burn pot. Notice how the ash is blown away from that one spot? It's leaking a good bit of air there, and it's never going to run clean while it's doing that. I'd take a straight edge to the burn pot flange, and the cradle, and see if one or the other isn't straight - my money is on the burn pot, which is at least an easy fix (warranty claim to Englander).

Other than that Smokey is right on, you've gotta check all that venting and heat exchanger for build up at this point as it's probably really loaded up. Take a wooden hammer and be pretty vigorous about beating the heat exchanger (back of the fire box) when you have the two clean out covers off. Keep beating and vacuuming till nothing more comes out - even with normal use it takes me a few cycles with my stove. Also, agreed 100% on the intake possible issues - the factory screen is pretty fine and a damp snow in real cold temps wind/snow blown at that screen will clog it right up - I've been choked out by that a few times this winter, including the last two days. I'm working on a more complex wind/snow deflector to eliminate this problem long term. I would consider disconnecting the OAK (stuff a sock in it to keep the cold air out) and running on the inside air (not ideal, but it'll work for a few days test) once you have the burn pot issue fixed to eliminate the OAK from the equation.

It's gotta be hugely frustrating that you've had so many issues with this stove. I can tell you as another PAH owner it is possible to have it run nice and clean, and provide great heat. This forum is the place that can make sure you get there. Should it have worked right from the get go, absolutely. Your install looks good, so it's not on you. But at this point, if you're committed it, I bet we can get it dialed in.

Yeah I saw that and several other things and got an PC from a freind pointing out some other things. But the OP needs to chime back in with some more information. We can play bop the mole for a long while with this situation as you and several others have found out. After playing bop the mole a lot I tend to get tired and wait so I can list a pile of things to nail all at once.

 

[acammer]

Yeah I saw that and several other things and got an PC from a freind pointing out some other things. But the OP needs to chime back in with some more information. We can play bop the mole for a long while with this situation as you and several others have found out. After playing bop the mole a lot I tend to get tired and wait so I can list a pile of things to nail all at once.

Fair enough - just saying from experience with this stove, and the amount of ash blow away there - it's leaking pretty good,and just gets worse when that pot starts to lead up. But you're definitely right, there are so many possibilities that web diagnosing is definitely a challenge.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Fair enough - just saying from experience with this stove, and the amount of ash blow away there - it's leaking pretty good,and just gets worse when that pot starts to lead up. But you're definitely right, there are so many possibilities that web diagnosing is definitely a challenge.

Online diagnosing is only as good as information that the person with the problem can provide. The more information the better. These situations always boil down the combustion air not all going through the pellet pile. One just has to follow the air flow and all will be revealed.

 

[jjwreil]

Thank you again for the replies, the rest of the information will be coming shortly, I had to wait for a good time to shut it down, sadly -20ish out(well -10 now) with a nasty windchill has led me to believe there is no good time. Have the day off so its stove cleaning day! Sent the kids upstiars with the space heater so will be doing a base clean so I can get the pictures and other info and will post them soon.

 

[jjwreil]

Thanks again, going to answer the questions here and plenty of pictures attached

What is holding the ash pan against its gasket?

A pair of clasps that tighten closed, I have included a picture of the inside/outside and you can also see the gasket which I added after Englander sent it to me.

Do you get below the burn pot cleaned out and is it clear all the way to the OAK inlet outside and what kind of screening is there along with how open that wind defector is. This is the start of your air flow and anything a bit off at this point can foul up the entire system. Something as simple as too small a mesh can lead to enough frost formation on the screen to make a mess of the burn.

I completely clean out below the burn pot each time I restart, tyipcally to get it running again after the 8-10 hours gunk up I clean the pot, below the pot, all around the flange(right word?) as well as the door and around the seals. This is enough to get the stove running again (though at least 2 starts with an E-2 code each time).

A picture of the OAK intake is include, I've kept it pretty free of snow build up, due to its location it gets almost no wind and the high snow banks along the road protect it from the rest.

If you have a leaf blower with vacuum ability look up leaf blower trick on here and read.

Sadly I do not

Look at the pictures of the fire and the front left corner of the burn pot. Notice how the ash is blown away from that one spot? It's leaking a good bit of air there, and it's never going to run clean while it's doing that.

I noticed this after you pointed it out, the burn pot seems to sit flush when cold though as you can see in the picture below. Is it possible the ash build up below the pot pushed it up?

It's gotta be hugely frustrating that you've had so many issues with this stove. I can tell you as another PAH owner it is possible to have it run nice and clean, and provide great heat. This forum is the place that can make sure you get there. Should it have worked right from the get go, absolutely. Your install looks good, so it's not on you. But at this point, if you're committed it, I bet we can get it dialed in.

Thanks! After staying up last night to get it running again my Fiancee asked me if I get sick of fighting with the stove? hah! I think it has become my hobby to keep it running, sadly with these temps there really isn't an alternative. Honestly if my furnace hadn't caused me problems and was running I would have just bought oil and bagged the whole thing but don't have that option.

Some additional observations since spending more time looking at the stove after reading what has been written. A clear indicator I should have caught sooner was smoke leakage from the chamber after the stove was turned off. I had seen it before and today had quite a bit coming out from around the ash pan. Even with the gasket they sent me it is not air tight still. I included a picture of the gasket and it almost seems like I needed the thicker one that the door uses.

I have no qualms about contacting Englander for a new burn pot and ash pan, after what this stove has put me through due to their mistake they should comply. As it is I have a spare control board and blower sitting here, might as well add to my collection.

Going to proceed with the thorough interior cleaning, taking off the access doors to the heat exchanger and gonna clean the heck out of that.

 

[jjwreil]

This one wouldn't attach, seems I hit my limit.

 

[acammer]

If the ash pan still isn't sealing right you're going to continue to have problems. You've gotta get 100% of that air to pull through the burn pot area - if it can get it from anywhere else (ash pan, door gaskets, hopper, etc) it'll never perform right, it just doesn't have any reserve combustion blower capacity than is necessary with a perfectly sealed stove. I'm surprised even with the gasket that it doesn't seal right - I'd get out a straight edge and check the pan and the stove to make sure everything is straight - it should be sealing if it is.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

It is critical that the burn pot sit flat and not rock when in its cradle any air going out around the edges is less air through the pellet pile.

The area under the burn pot must be cleared of ash.

There must not be any gap around the flange of the burn pot and the burn pot for the same reason.

That gasket you added to the ash pan needs to be tested and the fasteners adjusted if need be.

Likewise the gasket and latches on your hopper.

Same for the door gasket and the latch on the stove.

The reason for the testing is that looks do not guarantee a good seal.

The cradle needs to be checked for flatness.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

A thin flat gasket can used to provide a seal for the burn pot if needed provided it doesn't interfere with the ignition system.

Now there is a low burn air setting and low burn fuel feed setting these are used to trim the stove to the venting and fuel being burned, if the low burn fuel is too high or the low burn air is to low you will have the same situation as is caused be a burn pot air bypass, all air leaks that are into the firebox are burn pot bypasses.

There may still a few places that are hard to find so we will start with what has already been seen.

 

[jjwreil]

It is critical that the burn pot sit flat and not rock when in its cradle any air going out around the edges is less air through the pellet pile.

The area under the burn pot must be cleared of ash.

There must not be any gap around the flange of the burn pot and the burn pot for the same reason.

When cold the burn pot sits flat with no rocking in the cradle and the flange is flat. While cleaning I did notice a little chipping along the back wall (included picture, not sure if its related)

That gasket you added to the ash pan needs to be tested and the fasteners adjusted if need be.

Likewise the gasket and latches on your hopper.

Same for the door gasket and the latch on the stove.

How do you test these? The video that came with it said to user a dollar bill and seal the latch and it should not move but I have confirmed the ash pan gasket does not hold the dollar bill in place.

When I sealed the ash pan with the heat resistance aluminum tape it worked like it was supposed to for about 4 days before returning to the dirty burn so I worry there are other issues (or just really dirty) besides the ash pan.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

The test is to place a piece of paper about the size of a dollar bill between the gasket and close and latch the item, if the dollar bill easily pulls out adjust the latching system until it doesn't or use the next size up gasket. The test has to be repeated along the entire length of the gasket. Some folks use a bbg lighter and look for the flame being sucked towards the seal with the stove running. I am not a fan of using a flame in this manner.


That flaking looks like ash and other deposits and I would remove it with a putty knife just to verify that to be the case. If it turns out to be metal you need to get on the horn and call ESW and ask to talk to Mike Holton leave a number or send a private communication using https://www.hearth.com/talk/conversations/add?to=stoveguy2esw Be certain to leave a daytime phone number where he can contact you and a detailed message including a link to this thread.

 

[jjwreil]

The test is to place a piece of paper about the size of a dollar bill between the gasket and close and latch the item, if the dollar bill easily pulls out adjust the latching system until it doesn't or use the next size up gasket. The test has to be repeated along the entire length of the gasket. Some folks use a bbg lighter and look for the flame being sucked towards the seal with the stove running. I am not a fan of using a flame in this manner.


That flaking looks like ash and other deposits and I would remove it with a putty knife just to verify that to be the case. If it turns out to be metal you need to get on the horn and call ESW and ask to talk to Mike Holton leave a number or send a private communication using https://www.hearth.com/talk/conversations/add?to=stoveguy2esw Be certain to leave a daytime phone number where he can contact you and a detailed message including a link to this thread.

Let me try the gasket test, I know the ash box will fail but I will check other area's and see about tightening the latching system.

As for the material, I don't think its ash buildup but I am not 100% positive it is metal, I scraped at it a little and once the ash was off the surface there was a metalic shade and in this picture you can see the material goes back towards the auger hole and seems to be the material used to seal it(?), there is a smaller piece protruding that looks left over, its illumated by the light.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

As for the material, I don't think its ash buildup but I am not 100% positive it is metal, I scraped at it a little and once the ash was off the surface there was a metalic shade and in this picture you can see the material goes back towards the auger hole and seems to be the material used to seal it(?), there is a smaller piece protruding that looks left over, its illumated by the light.

Give it and the fire box the magnet test.

ETA: I said ash and other deposits, one of those deposits is exhaust gas condensate witch includes sticky crud such as creosote. The sticky stuff glues the ash together.

 

[jjwreil]

Give it and the fire box the magnet test.

ETA: I said ash and other deposits, one of those deposits is exhaust gas condensate witch includes sticky crud such as creosote. The sticky stuff glues the ash together.

Don't have much for magnets but found a kitchen magnert and the material was not magnetic. It does lead up to and around the seal on the auger hole though but definitley not metalic.

 

[jjwreil]

The test is to place a piece of paper about the size of a dollar bill between the gasket and close and latch the item, if the dollar bill easily pulls out adjust the latching system until it doesn't or use the next size up gasket.

Well that was depressing, even the door wasn't holding the dollar bill. it slid out with little resistance along the entire top and bottom of the door. The sides were solid but not the other portions.

Done a pretty thorough clean but sounds like with these other issues I'm not going to get a good burn regardless until they are resolved. House is into the 40's so gonna have to fire up soon either way. Currently trying to clea out the vent outside, getting quite a bit of soot coming out.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

No adjustment room?

 

[jjwreil]

No adjustment room?

I'll admit to being a little mechanically challenged sometimes and not sure how I would tighten the latches.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

I'll admit to being a little mechanically challenged sometimes and not sure how I would tighten the latches.

They describe how to do that in the manual.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

ww.manualslib.com/manual/758224/England-S-Stove-Works-25-Pdv.html?page=23 should apply to the hopper latches on your stove.

 

[jjwreil]

ww.manualslib.com/manual/758224/England-S-Stove-Works-25-Pdv.html?page=23 should apply to the hopper latches on your stove.

Thanks! My manual doesn't have that oddly enough. The hopper is the same, the front holds the dollar bill tight and the sides are loose to almost the point of no resistance.