$9 heating and electric bill combined

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If I build again I would build a pellet stove with a smaller burn pot and burn rate of 1/2 pound an hour. Might do it anyway and take it with to TX or FL for those cool nights.
 
I know of two all ICF homes. Would be a good idea for hurricane area too. I have ICF basement with r-60 walls. If I build again will give that option serious consideration.
My basement in northern Wisconsin is built with Logix ICF but I don't think it is close to R60.
 
MN changed the standard as I was building and upped the thickness for the cement. Increased the cost of course. I don't think 2 more inches of reinforced cement would make a difference. Another reason MN is the third most business unfriendly state. Have to use a Radon mitigation system on the sump as radon was really high. Now the air is measuring very low radon levels. Love the in floor heating.
 
I am pregnant with SMWilliamson's well insulated pellet baby.....
 
Yeah I guess if you look at it like that and have the means of constructing yourself then yes, it is quite overpriced. I recently just moved to Rehoboth (I'm on Peck St and if you are ever on the road you will more than likely see the truck from my picture in the driveway) and I've noticed that people really keep to themselves around here which is not the worst thing. People move out here for privacy and a different way of life when compared to the surrounding towns.

Well my name is Matt, and I might be in need of your services someday. I'm new to the pellet stove community but from this site alone, I have gained an unbelievable amount of knowledge from what others have experienced. Maybe I will pop my head in sometime soon to see if I could pick your brain a bit on some issues I'm having.
 
Another reason [thicker concrete] MN is the third most business unfriendly state. Have to use a Radon mitigation system on the sump as radon was really high. Now the air is measuring very low radon levels.
I've always associated thicker concrete with being hard on business. And I do love lots of Radon, great for a naturally healthy environment, as Radon is very natural. Too bad the business unfriendly state made you get rid of healthy Radon. Your family will lose the glow you would have wanted to nurture.
 
I've always associated thicker concrete with being hard on business. And I do love lots of Radon, great for a naturally healthy environment, as Radon is very natural. Too bad the business unfriendly state made you get rid of healthy Radon. Your family will lose the glow you would have wanted to nurture.
WTF does this mean??
 
Just "agreeing" with Bioburner a couple of posts above. ;)
 
I used to have a 4x8' sign by the highway that was using $5. worth of electricity a month and lit only from dusk to dawn. The quarterly bill came to $50., which was $15. power and $35. admin BS. The rates in our area went up and it was billed monthly and the bill was $55. per month and still only using $5. of power. I pulled the plug and told them to stick it somewhere. Got a quote for a small solar panel, battery and lights. I thought $500. should do it, the kit was way over a grand! Nope.

My brother in law installed solar panels covering the entire south side of his 4,000+ sf. ranch house. I think it was 23 panels. Even with that, the power from the panels does not generate 100% of his yearly electrical needs. The gov't pays him $.82 KW yet the retail selling rate of power in our region is well under $.10 KW. So he makes money by selling it for 8 times what he buys it for. If it wasn't for gov't subsidy, the panels would never pay for themselves.

In 1983, I built one of the first super insulated homes in the region. Double walls R45 and R60 in much of the ceiling. IF I wanted to live without a toaster, oven, coffee maker, a/c, computers,etc., then maybe I too could live cheap using only my wood stove.

What I'm saying is that the story is a lot of BS.
 
Our goal is for solar electric + wood to meet 100% of our home energy needs. Annual electric was about 11,300 kwh, even after good effort at reducing usage. Our solar is estimated to provide 9000 kwh annual average, so our electric goal is 9000 kwh annual (general service, dhw, supplemental heat) starting with Nov 2013. We have renewed our effort to further reduce usage, BUT maintain quality of life. Quality does not, however, equal waste, and I am hopeful our goal will be realized.
 
80% is about what I believe is normal and I have seen that number used many times. It is workable, with a fair bit of effort (and wood heat), to be close to energy efficient in a specially built home with a family dedicated to energy self sufficiency in many parts of the US. As soon as you get into areas of extreme heat or cold, the equation flies out the triple glazed window. Running a/c is a hydro nightmare and no wood stove is going to help in a heat wave in July. There is no way you will ever convince the majority of people in the southern states that they can live without a/c in the summer. Even our home in Southern Ontario with all the insulation and fresh county air at night is impossible for us to live in during a heat wave when the humidity is high unless we turn on the a/c.

The reality is that very few people (as a % of population) can heat with wood or pellets and few people can install solar in their residence. Without substantial government subsidies, solar is not realistic and all the numbers I have ever seen from science (not solar promoters) bear this out. The countries in Europe that have heavily subsidized solar & wind and now getting severe backlash as so many have proven to be unpopular due to the burden on taxes and the serious health concerns with wind turbines. Spain has halted major solar projects altogether due to the severe tax drain.

Few homes in cities are built to work well with wood heat and few are oriented correctly to use solar in any meaningful way. The stats that I found was that over 50% of the US population lives in apartments or multi-family dwellings, which make the use of either of these next to impossible.

I'm all for energy conservation but to be sustainable, it has to be done in a realistic, honest way that home owners can see the clear advantages without gov't intervention. Adding insulation, getting rid of old a/c's, furnaces, fridges, etc. can be shown to pay for upgrades within a handful of years. Sadly, whenever the gov't gets involved, costs rise due to the stupidity and waste of all gov'ts. Not being political, just a fact that big gov't is a wasteful system. The switch to LED lights should have taken place years ago. If everyone got rid of all incandescent lights, a fair number of power plants in the US could be shut down tomorrow.

I'm not trying to put a damper on your effort to be energy efficient. I would like to see more effort made to help convince the 10's of millions who can't build an energy efficient house find the easy ways to be more energy efficient and save $$
 
Doug, it is not clear to me that your couple anecdotes from southern ontario, and what you read about Europe justifies your global pessimism about solar. Don't know what the solar resource, electric prices, PV installers, and incentives look like up there, but there appear to be a lot of markets in the lower 48 (not to mention HI) where rooftop solar currently has great payback at market rates for kWh, some of them without tax rebates. But I suppose I'll let hearthers with PV discuss it with you....
 
I'd be thrilled to see some real stats on payback when there are zero subsidies in New England, NY, MI, MN, etc. Have not found any other than the BS ones. Hydro rates in Ont are some of the highest in North America and where I am, is either the same or lower latitude than the states I listed.

In our area, the payback without subsidy is so long that the panels will be well past their life expectancy.
 
Without substantial government subsidies, solar is not realistic and all the numbers I have ever seen from science (not solar promoters) bear this out.

Governments like to promote common good issues, to get votes, then make everyone ineligible, to get special interest money. Easiest way to squelch self interest is expensive qualifiers for a subsidy. Non qualifying solar schemes are cheap to build and work quite well
 
Ok Doug. Let's see. Let's say that the install cost $X/Watt, and grid power costs $Y/kWh. To achieve simple payback requires operating the system at nominal output power for T run hours, where T = 1000*(X/Y). In most of the locations you mention, a flat plate facing south tilted to the latitude will have an output of roughly 1500 run hours of nominal output per year. Thus T in calendar years is roughly (1000/1500)*(X/Y), or about 0.67*X/Y.

So, if your installed price was $4/W (a common value pre-rebate in many locations last year), and you pay $0.18/kWh for grid power, then your simple payback is:

T = 0.67*4/0.18 = 14.9 years. This is less than the life expectancy of the panels (but prob not the inverters).

In your example, assume that your friend bought a few years ago from an expensive installer and got no rebates, let's say $10/W. You say he is getting paid $0.82/kWh. His simple payback would be:

T = 0.67*10/0.82 = 8.2 years. I am sorry that his panels will not last that long.
 
"Non qualifying solar schemes are cheap to build and work quite well"

I'm not convinced. If you are off grid, then yes, I see no doubt that it beats propane, etc. hands down. If you are on grid, I'm still sceptical until I see proven data.

I forgot to mention other problems. With my brother in laws installation, his home insurance company found out and they were immediately cut off and forced to find another company in a day - at much higher premiums. Also, when they have to replace the shingles on the roof (yup, coming up soon), the contract stipulates that they must hire the installation contractor to unmount the panels, remove the entire system from the roof and then re-install everything after the roof is re-shingled. Just another way the contractors wring every drop of blood out of you.
 
I know for a fact his payback, even at $.82 is something close to 15 years. Then add the re-roofing I just posted. Now, you're closer to 20.

Your post is exactly why I am skeptical. The math does not work out in real life in any installation I have info on.
 
Doug - you have strong feelings and opinions, I'm not sure where they are coming from, and there is nothing wrong with feelings and opinions, except that the facts show they may be misplaced, at least in my situation, the only situation with which I have intimate knowledge.
80% is about what I believe is normal and I have seen that number used many times. It is workable, with a fair bit of effort (and wood heat), to be close to energy efficient in a specially built home with a family dedicated to energy self sufficiency in many parts of the US. As soon as you get into areas of extreme heat or cold, the equation flies out the triple glazed window.
This doesn't fit me. The equation has not flown out of the window. The year prior to out solar install we used 11,300 kwh, and that was after substantial effort to reduce usage. Our current goal is further reduction to 9000 kwh. In nine more months I will let you know how we did. The goal is household energy 100% wood and solar for heat and electric needs. We are dedicated to conservation, cutting costs closer to what's needed rather than wanted. We simply look at this as money in our pockets for other important things.

We live in an area of extreme cold (regular periods of -20'sF and -30'sF) and brief periods of extreme heat and humidity (1-2 weeks during the summer, +90F). Our home was built in 1956, not specially built at all, and we have added insulation and upgraded windows; 1500 sq ft + 1500 sq ft basement. Wood heat (4 cords of aspen) now meets 80% of our space heating requirement. I look to solar to fill in the 20% plus meet other electric needs for dhw and general service. No LP, NG, or oil fuels at all.
Running a/c is a hydro nightmare .... Even our home in Southern Ontario with all the insulation and fresh county air at night is impossible for us to live in during a heat wave when the humidity is high unless we turn on the a/c.
I assume So Ontario was well populated before there was a/c. It is completely possible for people to live without it, always has been. Not everyone can afford a/c. I'm not suggesting that a/c does not provide great comfort. I'm glad you have the income to buy that level of comfort. We have no a/c and won't get it, although many of our neighbors have it and enjoy its benefits. I suspect most of them would say too that it is impossible to live without it.
The reality is that very few people (as a % of population) can heat with wood or pellets and few people can install solar in their residence. Without substantial government subsidies, solar is not realistic and all the numbers I have ever seen from science (not solar promoters) bear this out.
I don't know the truth of this on a national basis. I know where I live a great many people heat with wood or pellets. Modern wood gasification boilers and furnaces are very low in emissions. Cost-wise they are competitive and from a cost of energy perspective they are significantly less expensive than all fossil fuel sources.

Solar is realistic without subsidies, and if subsidies and govt benefits for fossil fuel energy sources would be eliminated, solar would be even more realistic without subsidies. Solar subsidies are a tiny fraction of subsidies and benefits for fossil fuel energy sources. In a level playing field solar will win almost every time. In Minnesota a recent non-subsidized solar installation bid for $250 million was less expensive than bids for the same power fueled by fossil fuels, primarily natural gas.

A major issue impeding faster expansion of solar is a cultural mindset that the investment should pay off in just a few years. No coal, nuclear, or hydro power plant was ever built or would be built if it had to pay off in a few years. These are major investments with life spans of 30 years and longer. So is solar, and viewed properly in the long term solar, even at today's prices, is a very good investment.
Few homes in cities are built to work well with wood heat and few are oriented correctly to use solar in any meaningful way. The stats that I found was that over 50% of the US population lives in apartments or multi-family dwellings, which make the use of either of these next to impossible.
Probably true in part, but no one is suggesting that every residence have its own wood heating appliance and its own solar array. Heat energy from biofuels on a district basis is very feasible. Solar in large arrays of power plant capacities are the future.
Sadly, whenever the gov't gets involved, costs rise due to the stupidity and waste of all gov'ts.... The switch to LED lights should have taken place years ago. If everyone got rid of all incandescent lights, a fair number of power plants in the US could be shut down tomorrow.
You can't have it both ways. Govt imposed energy standards have been the driver to more efficient lighting and the end of incandescent light. Not govt stupid and not govt wasteful. No govt = anarchy, and no society has survived as an anarchy.
I'm not trying to put a damper on your effort to be energy efficient. I would like to see more effort made to help convince the 10's of millions who can't build an energy efficient house find the easy ways to be more energy efficient and save $$
Thank you, and I agree.
 
I know for a fact his payback, even at $.82 is something close to 15 years. Then add the re-roofing I just posted. Now, you're closer to 20.

Your post is exactly why I am skeptical. The math does not work out in real life in any installation I have info on.

Ok. Based on your additional info, we can estimate that his installation cost can be computed from 15 = 0.67*X/0.82. Looks like it comes out over $18/W. How does the math not work?? Also, most PV installers in the US will tell you to put on a new roof before the install.
Also keep in mind that all this is assuming no tax rebates....the rebates make the payback much more favorable.

So, it sounds like your BIL hired a very expensive installer, who happily put panels on a roof that was near the end of its life, and neither your BIL nor his installer called the ins co until after the job was complete. I'm sorry about your BIL's situation, but what does that have to do with PV installs elsewhere in NA, esp ones that typically cost just 25% as much as his?

http://www.pv-tech.org/editors_blog...vitational_pull_pushes_national_prices_higher
 
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Doug: I'd be thrilled to see some real stats on payback when there are zero subsidies in ... MN.... Have not found any other than the BS ones.... In our area, the payback without subsidy is so long that the panels will be well past their life expectancy.
You won't be surprised to know that I was interested in payback on my system. I expected a longer payback than at the $4/watt install standard because I had to do a ground mount, underground wiring 280 feet to my house, etc., and my install cost came to $4.59/watt. All work was contracted, not done by myself. The cost is a real number. I get a 30% federal tax credit which reduces my cost to $22,400, or $3.21/watt.

Attached is a chart showing my payback at year 20, far less than the life expectancy of the panels. And most interesting, after 20 years the payback far exceeds a standard competitive investment. At year 30 the solar system is $16,000 ahead in present value dollar over a CD investment.

You may think 20 years is too long. Why? No one would build an infrastructure power plant of any kind without a lifespan of more than 20 years. If solar payback was 5 years, as it may be in some states with greater incentives, IMO no rational person would not put in solar if the site permitted it. And if not, the rational person would be an investor in an off-site large solar system serving many consumers. Solar pays.

Here are the assumptions for the calculations based on historical 20 year averages:
Average 5-year CD interest rate the last 20 years = 3.75%
Average inflation (discount) rate the last 20 years = 3.5%
Federal tax rate, current, not expected to change = 25%
Annual panel derate/yr = 0.5%
Current kwh rate ($0.108 x 1.06875 sales tax) = $0.115
Average annual energy cost increase the last 20 years = 5%
 

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I had a quick look at your link to PV-TECH http://www.pv-tech.org/editors_blog...vitational_pull_pushes_national_prices_higher
That is almost entirely made up of BofD from the Solar Industry. I have no use for anything spewed out from the industry that's sole purpose is to advertise itself.

Please post me a link to something from Science/Academia that does not have a grant from the solar industry. I'm not being pessimistic when I'm asking for supporting documentation that is non-partisan, just want to get to the truth.

I will try to get to the rest of the answers when I get more time to look through the info. We've got yet another storm here and I've now plowed the 800' driveway three times and it'll need it twice again tonight.
 
I had a quick look at your link to PV-TECH http://www.pv-tech.org/editors_blog...vitational_pull_pushes_national_prices_higher
That is almost entirely made up of BofD from the Solar Industry. I have no use for anything spewed out from the industry that's sole purpose is to advertise itself.

Please post me a link to something from Science/Academia that does not have a grant from the solar industry. I'm not being pessimistic when I'm asking for supporting documentation that is non-partisan, just want to get to the truth.

I will try to get to the rest of the answers when I get more time to look through the info. We've got yet another storm here and I've now plowed the 800' driveway three times and it'll need it twice again tonight.

I thought you'd like that link.....

Ok, I found a reputable source for relevant pricing info. The blog post is summarizing info from a major report prepared by researchers at the Lawrence Berkeley National Lab under a govt contract. I consider it to be a Science/Academia source.

You declare my info source (LBNL) partisan and BS. Now you request I find another one. That's not how it works....now its your turn to come up with a more reputable information source that indicates that PV installers are charging far more than $4/W. (I suspect the IRS will be interested in this info). So much more that all PV technology is BS. Or tell us where my simple payback (or Jim's nice Net Present Value) math is incorrect.

Be safe in the storm.
 
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