A beginner's questions

[Acey]

Hello everyone, I've been reading on the forum for a little while now, and figured it was time to start asking some questions of my own! First of all, what a fantastic service that you experienced guys are providing for all of us in need of help. I'm so grateful that this forum exists, and there are so many willing contributors. Thanks to all, and especially to the moderators who put forth all the effort!

I've just purchased a house near Lapeer, MI. It's a "new" construction, though incomplete, about 4500 sq. ft. with lots of windows, and 2x4 walls with what will be mostly bat insulation. So right off the bat (sorry pun-haters) I know that efficiency and me don't belong in the same sentence! I figure my two biggest perennial costs will be heating and taxes, and well, I don't figure the taxes are something that I can do too much about.

I've already got 2 LP gas furnaces in the house, which force air into 2 separate zones in the house. In a house with a woodlot, this is not a very satisfying solution to my heating needs. So I've been looking around for other solutions and have gone from thinking about a couple of wood stoves, to a wood furnace, to got-to-have a gasifier, to it-needs-to-be a boiler, etc.

So I would like to keep the forced air heat delivery which is already in place in the house. But I have one furnace and system in more or less a crawl space, while the other one is in my basement proper. So in order to deliver heat to both zones from one furnace/boiler, I think I would need either a shared plenum with a damper system (to preserve the separate heating zones) and basically run air ducts through my access to the crawl space (space is at a premium here), or I could have two separate heat exchangers, one for each zone, and simply run plumbing through this access area. This is one reason why I personally would like a boiler. The other reason is that while I appreciate gasifiers that have controlled burns through a damper system, it seems to me that the most efficient use of the wood and of the boiler is to let the load burn and gasify all the way, and simply store the excess heat in a storage system. This is also one of the most important factors in eliminating the dirty part of the burn, and creosote build-up, as well as minimizing the amount of wood used.

So I personally really don't have any interest in the OWBs. I started by favoring the Charmaster units, and I've looked at Greenwood, the Wood Gun by Alternate Heating, Empyre Elite (my father-in-law really likes this one - side note: it's interesting how he's much more interested in shopping over the phone, while I do most of mine on the internet. hmmmm), Tarm, and it's interesting to observe how many of you experienced posters own EKOs. (I just mean to show I've been doing a little shopping around)

From what I've learned, it seems much better to undersize one's boiler selection than to oversize it. With the size of my house, I really have no clue as to what size it would require. And if I were to undersize it, how much under could I get away with? And speaking of sizing, would storage for a house my size require an inordinate amount? I know that both of these questions relate to how many loads I'd be using everyday. Of course, like anyone, I'd prefer fewer loads. I guess the most intimidating and overwhelming aspect of this whole decision making process is the storage question. I've seen what some of you DIYers have done, and it's quite impressive. I really don't even know where to begin with that, and don't feel like I can commit to a boiler without first addressing storage. Again, I don't want a gasifying boiler if the fans will be off for much of the burns.

Have any of you considered fan motor and circ pump efficiencies as a factor in the decision of your boiler? This site seems to basically rate many of the boilers based almost entirely on the quality of the warranty (which is helpful in that aspect). http://www.hvac-for-beginners.com/wood-boiler-ratings.html

Ok, so that's basically how far I've come in this decision-making process. The more I learn, the more the field seems to open up further to other brands. I think I'm firm now in wanting a gasifying indoor wood boiler, with some sort of storage. Am I headed in the right direction? Can you help me with some tips from what you've learned with storage? If you had to do it all over (who here doesn't ask himself this question) what would you do differently? Are fan/circ pump motor efficiencies relatively negligible in your mind? How important was the quality of the warranty in making your decision to purchase your boiler?

Somehow, I need to get to where I am now, to jumping in with one, and getting it installed. That still seems like a big leap. Thanks in advance for all the input

Acey

 

[huffdawg]

Im no expert but I would think as far as sizing goes your next step would be to get a heat/loss calculation done on your home . There are programs for that on a number of sites, google it . I know the taco site has one .Or you could hire someone to come in and do it for you.

And welcome to the site. There is a lot of excellent help here.


Huff

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

Welcome Aboard!

You need to do something about your insulation.

GreenWood is gone.

Think your taxes are bad, come to NY.

Undersizing is not necessary if you incorporate storage.

Why are you playing on the 'puter insteada cuttin wood?

 

[Fred61]

Welcome Acey,

If your home is new construction, someone must have recently done the heat loss calculations in order to install your present gas units. That's where you need to start.

 

[flyingcow]

Before you move in, R-40 in walls ans R-60 in ceilings. Foam/caulk all cracks, etc.


welcome. Enjoy this group people. Great site.

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

Why 2x4 walls?

 

[bpirger]

Not to be a trouble maker....but if you really have 2x4 walls and all the square footage in Michigan...your best bet economically to heat for the future may just be to use foam insulation. R13 walls with that much space is really going to hurt I think.....and batts no less. So while I'm sure you don't want to hear it, and you most certainly don't want to drop the cash on the foam, it might be the BEST thing you can do for heating in the long run.....unless wood is just handed to you all split, stacked, and dry. If you still can...I'd think really hard about this.

Let the boiler talk continue! I like my Garn, but don't think that may be best for your application with air exchangers....

 

[Como]

It sounds like the inside is open.

Would it be possible to get some more depth and some insulation in there?

(broken link removed to http://www.buildingscience.com/resources/high-r-value)

This might help.

Large house with not a lot of insulation, 40btu a sq ft? = long term cost, you might be able to halve your heat load which makes everything else easier and cheaper.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

I think what be most helpful is if you describe (in as much detail as you can) how "incomplete" this house is. That way members can give you more precise information on what they feel would be in your best interest. Save covering the same ground multiple times with conflicting info etc. Gotta say though that my first thoughts are to make the heatload as small as you can so... insulation (as much as you can) as well as a good to excellent job on your air barrier (housewrap) & vapor barrier are going to give you a far quicker ROI than any heating system you choose to install. Drawings are good pictures are better. Great bunch of folks here as well as plenty of industry pros so you are in the right place. Welcome aboard.

 

[Nofossil]

When we built ours, we put 1" polyiso boards with foil joint tape over the inside of the studs and under the sheetrock. We should have put horizontal furring strips in between to create a dead air space, but that's a great way to add more insulation and get a REALLY good vapor barrier.

 

[Acey]

Ok, great advice guys. I'll get onto getting a heat loss assessment ASAP.

To answer a few questions about where I stand on the house, I'm still not in it - I'm actually posting from KY! I bought it as a bank-owned deal. We will be moving into it hopefully sometime this summer. I would NEVER have built with 2x4 walls if I were starting from scratch. Below are a few pictures that could give you some idea of what shape it's currently in. Most walls are already drywalled, a few are not. So furring out certain walls in a couple of rooms seems like a waste if the other rooms are so much less relatively insulated. I do already have plans to replace some of the bat with blown on a rec room that has 3 exterior walls (pictured below). All through the process of thinking about finishing it, I've been trying to balance getting things done properly now while some of the house is still not drywalled, and leaving as much as possible that the previous owner put in to keep the cost of finishing to a reasonable level. One advantage is that the floors (1st and 2nd floors) are trussed, but I don't think that will really help me in terms of insulating. Ok, here are the pics.....

Basically, the back half of the house and all of the upstairs are already drywalled. The only exterior walls that are not drywalled are those which are pictured here. Oh, and the indoor picture with all of the windows looking toward the front of the house, that area will be closed in with 3 sets of glass paned french doors as a bit of an additional temperature barrier.

Thanks again for all the feed back!

Acey

 

[Frozen Canuck]

OK first off congrats. House seems to be fine, from what you have shown us.
I only see one partially finished floor in the photos & that is a good thing as it will allow you to consider radiant floors where the tubing is laid directly on top of the subfloor, there are several manufacturers that make systems specifically for this type of application.
I am sure that the trade pros as well as the trade engineers here will give you plenty of info to consider on the topic of what type of radiant to install.
I know you said you wanted to use the forced air to control costs however there isnt a more comfortable type of heat to be had than radiant directly under the finished floor you walk on, worth a good hard look IMO.
Forced air will be nowhere near as boiler friendly as radiant. Going this route would also allow you to place the boiler in the basement & run pipes to zones from the boiler.
The downside would be having two new unused furnaces for sale, the upside would be using that money to pay for a boiler & radiant tubing.
In photo #1 there are several posts in the wall that I will assume are for a faux post & beam look (correct me if I am wrong) they need vapor barrier behind them, all the electrical boxes in exterior walls/ceilings also need a vapor barrier hat on them prior to installing the vapor barrier on the walls (standard code requirement here I assume there as well).
You have a larger home with a fair amount of glass that will translate into a large heatload.
There appear to be cathedral ceilings on most of the first floor, hot forced air loves to rise up to those ceilings, radiant will keep you warmer near the floor where you live.
You didnt mention how much R value you have in the ceilings, that will factor into you heatloss calc as well.
What you suggested, using the existing ductwork to heat the home is doable I am just suggesting that there are alternatives, forced air will gobble up a ton more btu's to heat a home of this type than radiant no matter what you burn to generate those btu's.
Posting pics of the basement will help the heating pros to assess what will fit in so to speak. In short keep asking questions & keep an open mind about the answers you receive as I am sure there will be lots.

 

[Fred61]

When I moved to my retirement home about 6 years ago to escape the high taxes and maintenance of my large home, my first order of business was to make it energy efficient. This is the first place I've lived in that I didn't build myself. It's a 1970s ranch with 2x4 walls. I found it worth my while to remove the drywall on the outside walls and add 1.5 inch polyiso sheets to the studs. It's not that difficult to do. By using 1.5 inch thickness it allows you to just nail a 2x4 flat along the ceiling as a nailer for crown moulding and nail a frame around your windows as a nailer for your trim. I just held the polyiso sheets in place with drywall screws driven through 1/8 inch luan squares (about 2"x2") taped the joints with gorilla tape and then applied the sheetrock using looooong screws. The elecrical boxes were removed from the studs and were replaced with the ones that hang on the sheetrock.

 

[Huskurdu]

Welcome Aboard!

You need to do something about your insulation.

GreenWood is gone.

Think your taxes are bad, come to NY.

Undersizing is not necessary if you incorporate storage.

Why are you playing on the 'puter insteada cuttin wood?

I agree with above, NY sucks.

I also agree with doing the heat loss calc. I would not have bought a wood boiler 3 years ago, I would have insulated the crap out of my house instead. I've got to run my wood boiler AND gas boiler when it gets down below zero!! Also, IMO if I was you I would Oversize and utilize w/storage for best results. Getting up in the middle of night to refill would suck. Storage does kick butt.
BTW, Welcome to the boiler support group.
Hope this helps,

Norm

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

I didn't say NY sux. I said taxes in NY are as high as any, and higher than all cept NJ :smirk:
If NY sucked I'd not live here any more. Or if I could find a way to make a living somewhere near Snosqualmie or Olympia WA or BC. Or maybe SW Harbor ME.

Rock on!

 

[huffdawg]

I didn't say NY sux. I said taxes in NY are as high as any, and higher than all cept NJ :smirk:
If NY sucked I'd not live here any more. Or if I could find a way to make a living somewhere near Snosqualmie or Olympia WA or BC. Or maybe SW Harbor ME.

Rock on!

Taxes are very high here in BC too. It takes the average citizen working till late June to get their yearly taxes paid. Sorry a little off the topic.

 

[Como]

A friend of mine who lives in the UK said his was May 26th. But I think he was only talking about Income related taxes.

 

[ISeeDeadBTUs]

[Taxes are very high here in BC too. It takes the average citizen working till late June to get their yearly taxes paid. Sorry a little off the topic.

Possibly, but your skiing is WAY better than ours!

Now, about the OP's questions . . .

 

[Acey]

Now, about the OP's questions . . .

I don't mind a little creep talking about how our taxes are too high. Now, if we get a big CREEP talking about how they're too LOW, it'll be time to start a new thread!

Acey

 

[711mhw]

I agree with the others. INSULATE, it's a little late but not too late. In my home now I went goofy insulating with recycled (cheaper) iso foam and lots of expanding foam. It is well worth it! It is well worth it! It is well worth it! PERIOD. The other thing to focus on is air sealing. I would consider pulling the d wall and either (like Fred said) cutting some foam to fit in the stud bays and foaming in around the obstacles (wires & pipes) or do the spray foam thing, the best but expensive. IMO I would do that (insulate) and live with the heat system that you have, you can deal with those changes later. Good luck, looks like a nice house.

 

[kielka]

I have a Scandtec Solo Plus 40, but with radiant baseboard. It seems like you are looking fro recommendations on wood gassification boilers and I would recommend what I have. Now as far as tying that in to a forced hot air system, I'm not up to date on the specifics. My brother in-law's father in-law, i know, lots of in-laws there, has a OWB tied in to a forced air system. How effective it is not completely sure but it's prolly worth looking into using a higher efficiency gassification boiler like most of us have. I'm sure there is someone here with a similar set up to what you would be looking at.

 

[heaterman]

Acey I gotta be honest. I can't imagine anyone using 2x4 construction and fiberglass batt insulation in a new house. Are you sure there's not any foam board around the outside of the house? I don't think what you describe even meets building codes in Michigan without some kind of extra wrap somewhere.
All I can say is that every dollar you spend on insulation now means savings for the life of the house. Smaller HVAC eqiupment, smaller boiler, smaller lines smaller pumps etc etc etc.
Take the 10K you are going to spend on a wood boiler and use it on insulating that place. Get the wood boiler later when fuel goes beserk in a year or two.
Rip out the batts and have someone blow some WallSeal in there if you have to. I know a great company in Grand Rapids that foams the first inch to totally seal the wall and sprays cellulose over top for in most cases, the same price as cellulose alone. Send me a PM if you want their name. They travel all over and in fact just did a place I am putting radiant floor in up north. Do what you can right while you have the chance.

 

[Frozen Canuck]

Have to agree with Heaterman on several points, your heatload will be well...huge & that means huge or multiple everything to heat that load. Plus all the fuel to generate btu's. Propane or wood its going to be either a huge financial burden or a massive workload getting all that wood. I am hoping that you have at least 2" of high density foam under the exterior finish of the house (the brick & vinyl siding) to increase the R value & lower the heatload.

As far as it meeting local building codes (R12) that is, I can only say that it would not here. R12 walls became extinct here in the 60's (geez I am getting old) I suggest that you contact local building code officials to find out for sure, either way if all you have is R12 adding more just makes $$$ sense. Sorry for not giving that more emphasis is my earlier post as that would be a huge red flag here.

If you are feeling unsure, a private home inspection might be in order to shed some light on the condition of the home as it relates to code & quality of work etc. When you have that heatloss calc in place you will also be able to determine if those 2 propane furnaces will handle the load, as well as be able to, based on the load & eff rating of the furnaces estimate your fuel costs for heating, AFA the electrical costs for AC, whole different set of calcs to estimate that. Greater R value will save yo $$$ on AC costs too.

AFA getting it done right while the house is mostly open, couldnt agree more, if you need further convincing just work out the price of getting it done right after you have finished the house & moved in...$$$ better now than then.

AFA fuel prices going beserk in a year or two absolutely take that to the bank. I am about a 3 hour drive from the oilsands & while the rest of north america is having troubles the oilsands are going flat out, with shrinking world oil supplies there are board rooms full of share holders salivating at the thought of long term $200.00 per barrel oil prices. As soon as China or India take off economically it will happen.

 

[woodsmaster]

Acey I gotta be honest. I can't imagine anyone using 2x4 construction and fiberglass batt insulation in a new house. Are you sure there's not any foam board around the outside of the house? I don't think what you describe even meets building codes in Michigan without some kind of extra wrap somewhere.
All I can say is that every dollar you spend on insulation now means savings for the life of the house. Smaller HVAC eqiupment, smaller boiler, smaller lines smaller pumps etc etc etc.
Take the 10K you are going to spend on a wood boiler and use it on insulating that place. Get the wood boiler later when fuel goes beserk in a year or two.
Rip out the batts and have someone blow some WallSeal in there if you have to. I know a great company in Grand Rapids that foams the first inch to totally seal the wall and sprays cellulose over top for in most cases, the same price as cellulose alone. Send me a PM if you want their name. They travel all over and in fact just did a place I am putting radiant floor in up north. Do what you can right while you have the chance.

+ 1 and if the drywall isn't finished take it off the walls and do the same there.

 

[heaterman]

Here's your first clue as to what it will cost to heat the house. There are two furnaces in it.

Now unless they did that for construction and framing reasons, you can bet that whoever built it was planning on it using a lot of heat. I would hazard a guess that both furnaces are rated at around 80,000 btu. Go and look at the nameplate rating to check it out. The fact of the matter is that a single 100K or maybe even an 80K would heat the place if insulated right.
We did a 5,300 sq ft house last year with a single 100K furnace serving 3 zones and only 4Tons of A/C. It was 2x6 with sprayed cellulose and R44 in the attic. Every joint was caulked on the framing, windows and doors and the basement was wrapped with 2" of foam around the outside. My actual heat loss calculation for the place was only 84,000 at indoor of 72 and outdoor of -10*.
Take your time and don't get anxious about getting it done.