A Fresh Eko 40 with 500 gal Storage Install

[Franzen105]

Hello. This is my very first post! Working on installing a Eko 40 with a 500 gal lp for hot storage. The preivous owners had a eko 40 installed but they were losing the house and sold it in a auction. They had the eko 40 plumed into a 40 gal lp hot water heater. Upon buying the place we knew we wanted another wood boiler so we ended up installing a Emprye Elite 100. Come to find out later that the pole barn house on slab that is 3000 sq- all the infloor tubing was installed as a "large sand mass system". Pretty much saying there was no insulation under the cement only around the perimeter and the pex tubes are buried in the sand below the cement. The Emprye Elite just did not have the btu/ or suppy to meet the demand of this large mass system.
So after many days of research and this great website, we are going to roll the dice again. Hopefully we have the right tools for the job
Thanks

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Hi, Welcome, Before you frame the tank in too fancy you might want to allow for stacking another tank on top of it. The 40 is a powerfull boiler, Randy

 

[Gasifier]

Welcome Franzen,

Congrats on the new boiler man! Keep us posted on your install with pictures. Don't forget ball valves on both sides of anything you may need to replace or work on. A ball valve or two and short section of pipe(s) for anything you may add to the system in the future (Domestic hot water, another tank, etc.).; A boiler protection valve for return water. How much dry wood do you have ready? Are you going to heat your DHW? Have a good one.

 

[mr.fixit]

Welcome Franzen,looks like your system is pretty close to mine.
I like mine,it heats over 4000 sq. ft. on around 10 cord give or take depending on the winter.
Did you add additional insulation besides the foam around the tank?

 

[timberr]

Welcome to wood burning club Franzen. The oil man looses another customer, too bad!

 

[Fred61]

Hello. This is my very first post! Working on installing a Eko 40 with a 500 gal lp for hot storage. The previous owners had a eko 40 installed but they were losing the house and sold it in a auction. They had the eko 40 plumed into a 40 gal lp hot water heater. Upon buying the place we knew we wanted another wood boiler so we ended up installing a Emprye Elite 100. Come to find out later that the pole barn house on slab that is 3000 sq- all the infloor tubing was installed as a "large sand mass system". Pretty much saying there was no insulation under the cement only around the perimeter and the pex tubes are buried in the sand below the cement. The Emprye Elite just did not have the btu/ or suppy to meet the demand of this large mass system.
So after many days of research and this great website, we are going to roll the dice again. Hopefully we have the right tools for the job
Thanks

I hope you're doing the right thing. You've got me concerned. If the issue is truly just needing more horsepower, that's fine. However if the sand bed is wet or hemorrhaging heat for any other reason, just throwing more heat energy at it is going to be a loosing proposition. Perhaps you will make it work or perhaps it will also suck up all the horse power the eko will produce. I hope for your sake, it will work and not be a wood hog and will be heating the neighbor's lawn down the road. Do your experimenting and put "abandon in-floor heat" on your list of alternatives.

Remember any heat lost to the ground is lost forever. I'm going to think negative on this issue.

 

[rkusek]

Ditto on abandoning the poorly designed floor heat if it doesn't work. Deerefanatic on here tried to use the previous owners floor system also installed incorrectly and his Eko 60 couldn't do it between the tremendous heat loss to the ground and wet wood. If the shed is insulated decently just make your own water to air heater using a truck radiator or an old a/c or heatpump outdoor condenser like I did. I foolishly spent $100 to replace the fan motor with a 120Vac with different speeds. Even the lowest speed is way to much. Just circulating water through it keeps my shed warm. With the fan running it takes 180* water and it comes out ice cold. The thing can pretty much handle the full output of my Eko 40. A household box fan on top of it is all I plan to use this year if that

 

[Gasifier]

Come to find out later that the pole barn house on slab that is 3000 sq- all the infloor tubing was installed as a “large sand mass systemâ€. Pretty much saying there was no insulation under the cement only around the perimeter and the pex tubes are buried in the sand below the cement.

I can not believe they installed it that way. Why would they do that? Was this done a long time ago? Did they not know how to do in-floor heating?

 

[Fred61]

There was a time way back when the solar rage started (remember Mother Earth News) that people thought the earth beneath your heated space would store the heat and it would come back to you. Those hippies are still shrugging their shoulders and asking WTF man while still looking for that heat.

 

[goosegunner]

There was a time way back when the solar rage started (remember Mother Earth News) that people thought the earth beneath your heated space would store the heat and it would come back to you. Those hippies are still shrugging their shoulders and asking WTF man while still looking for that heat.

That's some funny sheeet!

gg

 

[slowzuki]

In the right soil conditions you can omit insulation below a slab. But it has to be the right conditions which rarely exist. For the cost, insulate below a new slab so it works no matter what.

 

[Fred61]

In the right soil conditions you can omit insulation below a slab. But it has to be the right conditions which rarely exist. For the cost, insulate below a new slab so it works no matter what.

The thing is that those soil conditions are in the Sahara Desert. I have a 20' X 20' steel carport that I use for a woodshed. It is on one foot of crushed stone. If I piled sand in it 8' high in the center and let it set for 6 months or longer, I could dig in less than a foot and it would be wet. Live sand, which you wouldn't use under a slab, would only be a little dryer.

A 6 mil poly vapor barrier is just as important as the insulation as well as site preparation to keep any moisture to a minimum.

 

[slowzuki]

I've got 10 mil poly then a 12" sandbed topped by my slab. The sand took a while to dry, about a year, but it is dry now (I have a 30x30 access). I have 4" xps perimeter and 4 ft of 2" xps wing insulation, and 1" xps underslab in the living areas. If the infloor heat has no covering ie running at 75-80 F and you're on dry sand, no sub surface flow (we have 6 ft deep french drains under the perimeter) you can make it work in some climates.

Without the details it is faster and cheaper to just put 1 or 2" xps under the whole slab and it will always work. I had no money at the time so did the calcs and spent the money on under slab insulation in the higher heated space. Just by chance I was given more than enough 2.75" xps to do the whole slab for free about a year later. Little tough to retrofit.

 

[Franzen105]

The Emypre with 40 gal of Storage via hot water heater would heat about 2 zones out of 10 with 130 degree supply water. Our Slab is 3000 sq feet but only 1300 ft is living space and other 1700 is shop/garage. So i am crossing my fingers that the Eko 40 with 500 gal with be able to heat at least our living space and the Shop would just be a bonus. We also blew about 20 inches of Insulation in the attic after finding out the was only 6 inch batts up there.. The insulation as helped huge already.
I do plan on stuffing my heat storage box full of insulation. The walls are 2 layers of the 2 inch r-10 board foam. Just wanted to get the plumbing done first and pressure checked and leak free. The Plumbing is done besides the hot water filter housing i am waiting for.

So i Just have a NEWB question that i hate to ask.

But wondering were the best place to put the AquaStat for the Boiler???. I see some people have it on the top of the supply?? Or should it go on my tank!!?? Sorry if this is a really dumb question. All this is very new to me!

 

[Franzen105]

I have about 8 full cords split and stacked hopefully will be ready to go. Already have 3 cords started for next year!

Welcome Franzen,

Congrats on the new boiler man! Keep us posted on your install with pictures. Don't forget ball valves on both sides of anything you may need to replace or work on. A ball valve or two and short section of pipe(s) for anything you may add to the system in the future (Domestic hot water, another tank, etc.).; A boiler protection valve for return water. How much dry wood do you have ready? Are you going to heat your DHW? Have a good one.

 

[Franzen105]

Actually was done by a PRO in 1998. hopefully it works !
Home owner before who is now my neighbor said his eko worked great before, it actually was to warm, probably because it was plumbed diretly into a 40 gal hot water heater then right in to the floor.. Fingers Crossed!!

Come to find out later that the pole barn house on slab that is 3000 sq- all the infloor tubing was installed as a “large sand mass systemâ€. Pretty much saying there was no insulation under the cement only around the perimeter and the pex tubes are buried in the sand below the cement.

I can not believe they installed it that way. Why would they do that? Was this done a long time ago? Did they not know how to do in-floor heating?

 

[Gasifier]

Actually was done by a PRO in 1998. hopefully it works !
Home owner before who is now my neighbor said his eko worked great before, it actually was to warm, probably because it was plumbed diretly into a 40 gal hot water heater then right in to the floor.. Fingers Crossed!!

Come to find out later that the pole barn house on slab that is 3000 sq- all the infloor tubing was installed as a “large sand mass systemâ€. Pretty much saying there was no insulation under the cement only around the perimeter and the pex tubes are buried in the sand below the cement.

I can not believe they installed it that way. Why would they do that? Was this done a long time ago? Did they not know how to do in-floor heating?

I have never seen or heard of it done like that. Why would they not just put the tubing in the concrete slab? That is the way I am use to seeing it anyway. Curious. Hope it all works great for you. Let us know when you have your first fire and how things come up to temp.!

 

[bioman]

you might want to insulate your storage tank maybe, or not.

 

[Franzen105]

I will be fully insulated after its leak tested and good to go

you might want to insulate your storage tank maybe, or not.

 

[Franzen105]

Placing the Honeywell AquaStat. Should i put it on the Return Pipe from the tank to the Boiler! With about a 30 degree diff set and 170-180. Is the bottom of my tank ever going to get that warm????? any input???

 

[Gasifier]

Placing the Honeywell AquaStat. Should i put it on the Return Pipe from the tank to the Boiler! With about a 30 degree diff set and 170-180. Is the bottom of my tank ever going to get that warm????? any input???

The bottom of your tank will not get that warm. Most are placed at the top somewhere where the hot water is. I guess that depends on what your Aquastat is running though. I have three Aquastats on my wood boiler set-up and one on my back up oil set-up. What is your Aquastat running?

 

[Franzen105]

This is where i am not sure. But i thought it runs my loading taco pump from the boiler to the tank???

 

[mr.fixit]

The pump on the boiler loop should be connected directly to the Eko controller.It will control it on its own based on boiler temp. When it runs,it charges the tank.
If the aqustat came with the boiler it may of been intended for overheat loop? Don't know about that.
You could use the aquastat to limit the pump running your floor loop,that is, if the storage tank get depleted below usable temps,it cuts power to that pump or its relay.
I use a ranco temp controller (really just an adjustable thermostat with digital read out)with the temp sensor fastened to the top of the storage tank.When the tank gets below 125F. it shuts the load pump off.
Also looking at your pictures it almost looks like the Taco pump on the boiler loop has the motor end of the pump facing downward?.I believe they recommend that the pump motor should be installed horizontally but not certain on that.

Just looked at the pictures again and I'm not sure I'm following it right.
Is that a danfoss mixing valve on the boiler loop? Don't see the bypass valve or Am I missing something?
Maybe a drawing of the plumbing would help.

 

[rkusek]

I agree with Mr. Fixit. Take a break and post your plumbing diagram. The Danfoss will need a valve on the bypass to work properly. That Taco circ is mounted with the motor shaft pointed down instead of horizontal which will cause it to fail. Are the fittings out the top and bottom of the boiler galzanized? If so, you will want to replace them with black iron too. It's easy to get overwhelmed with details and I have had to take a break many time to make sure I was doing it correctly. You have a lot of money invested, don't try to rush it.

 

[Franzen105]

Thanks for the Info. Bypass Valve i do not have I will change the pump!! Just wondering what is wrong with the Galvinazied.????
Not sure what i need for a Bypass Valve/Loop??