A Modest Success - another smoke dragon story...

[pen]

Wear out your welcome? Ha! Well, at least not IMO. I love seeing others try and improve upon what has room for such creativity (at least amongst those individuals who have a reasonable amount of common sense along with a buck and change of IQ).

Sent you a PM about the dark cherry stovetop on my fisher. Didn't want to hijack your thread.



pen

 

[Peter B.]

Back to burning after a day and a half off while I tried the door reseal method mentioned in a post above.

Said method clearly needs revising. I proceeded per my own instuctions using plastic food wrap as a 'mask' between door and frame. I let the whole set for about 20 hours.

Unfortunately, the plastic wrap prevented the furnace cement from drying (mighta known) and if I attempt similar again, it will be off season when I can let the cement cure indefinitely. I might also use an extremely light paper as the mask instead... something at least vaguely porous that still has a chance of burning off readily when the cement finally dries.

Even with a caulk gun, applying an even bead of the furnace cement proved to be problematic... the cement is a bit too thin to work with easily, and my hands aren't all that steady.

I tried to think of another product that would do the job, and I suppose it may exist, but I wouldn't know where to look for it.

What I'm thinking would work is a thin 'tape' (or flat bead) of initially pliable, compressible material that could be applied evenly to the sealing surface... with a backing mask that would be left in place until after the first firing. The material would of course be some 'cousin' to furnace cement, and would be heat cured... and the mask removed (or burned away) after (or during) the cure.

Anyone know of such a product? The only thing remotely like it I can think of offhand is an automotive muffler 'bandage'. Maybe I could...

Anyways... I'll get back if/when I have some meaningful (?) burn times to report.

Thanks for your interest.

Peter B.

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[karri0n]

I'm not sure, but couldn't you use a very small diameter (maybe 1/8-1/4") low density gasket rope? The other solution I can think of is the moldable epoxy putty. (ala MIGHTY PUTTY, but get a better product as MP is worthless. I have seen a similar product made by LOCTITE) The stuff is not heat cured, but if you could find a high heat version of a similar product, it might just work. I do know that the stuff is generally pretty high heat to begin with, though I can't say whether it would be able to withstand stove heat.

Hindsight being 20/20, I would say that plastic might prevent the furnace cement from drying. Did you fire the stove, or just leave it be? I do know that the stove needs to be fired to cure the stuff, and that would definitely help with drying.

 

[Peter B.]

karri0n:

No, I didn't fire the stove first. I tried to peel away the plastic film first. Didn't work so well.

I did think of firing it (to cure the cement), but I was also a little worried I might end up gluing the two door halves together... should the plastic have melted first and allowed the two doors to 'bond'.

No rope gasket I've tried (and I _have_ tried) seems to stay in place for long... nor do I think (even if it stayed put) it would work as well as I would like (or dream).

But I'll definitely be doing some more pondering on how to get the job done.

Peter B.

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[karri0n]

Well you need to use high heat silicone(easier) or furnace cement(not as easy) to make the gasket stay even on a stove meant to hold a gasket rope... Not sure if you've been doing that. It doesn't just stay on its own. Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and if so I apologize.


If you had "glued" the two doors together, it wouldnt be such a bad thing, the stuff wouldn't hold it, but it would probably crumble when you did open the door, ruining the plan entirely. How did you get the undried cement off?

 

[Peter B.]

Even after 20 hours, not much of the cement had set at all. Luckily, I had chosen a surface on the top door that the lower door contacts when the two are closed together. I just had to slip off the top door and rinse and brush the cement off.

If I'd chosen another door/frame contact surface area instead, I'd have had a real mess on my hands... but it was luck not wisdom or forethought that guided the choice.

My experience with furnace cement is that it is _quite_ strong once heat cured... and able to make strong bonds if the surfaces to be joined are reasonably clean and wetted thoroughly first.

As for rope gaskets of any kind, there are all of none (believe me) that actually fit in the immediate door seal area. The castings themselves were intended to provide the 'seal'... and efforts at improving the seal are limited by the lack of clearance between door and door frame. You can only effectively increase the contact surface area using methods (something) like the ones I've described.

Peter B.

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[Peter B.]

Actually... it seems to me I could wrap this thread up about now.

Here are a few more observations from my experience with both the new secondary and catalyst... but those hoping for any 'high drama' will be disappointed.

Currently, with the firebox ringed with 'split' firebricks, and the upper baffle taking up some space in the top of the stove, I judge the remaining usable firebox volume is only about 1.5 cubic feet. With that limitation, I don't think I'll ever be able to get burn times of startling duration... and of course, depending on a lot of other things, burn times can be highly variable. In addition, there's no universally agreed method of measuring them anyway (which I find sort of stupid... there really ought to be a rough standard).

What I think it's safe for me to claim is that I can OFTEN get usable (and abundant) heat production for anywhere from 2 to 3+ hours on a casually packed fuel load... and depending on prevailing outdoor temps, I can choose to reload soon after the heat production starts to fade, or let the stove coast for several more hours.

I can get longer heat production times if I carefully pack the load, but I'm finding the stove now likes to run hot for those first hours regardless... and I'm inclined to plan my tending in future around that predictable surge.

The early surge seems to be the most useful change I've made... other than ensuring reasonably long lasting light-off coals from the coal mounding reload technique I've recently adopted. That improvement is welcome, but even while retaining a few coals, overnight fires (longer than about 8 hours) still tend to leave the room cooler than most people would tolerate.

So... the claims or comparisons I'll make are relative to my experience of last year... when I had essentially no effective secondary in operation, wasn't using the catalyst at all, and the loading doors were more than a tad leaky.

As I recall, last year's fires were 'lackluster'. I put fuel in the stove and it burned... when the wood wasn't encrusted with snow and ice. I recall being cold a lot of the time. Then as now, I only heat about 500 (poorly insulated) square feet so there seems no excuse for not being warm through most weather conditions.

This winter has been somewhat milder here than last... and the meaningful stove repairs and modifications I've made this year didn't begin until maybe mid-January.

But... I honestly think I've been warmer since making the changes, and at the moment, I'm afraid I'm overwarm. A startup fire at noon was freshened at 5 PM... and at 7:30, I could open a window or door.

I 'spect I'll let this fire burn out, and start new tomorrow. It's supposed to be 25*+ overnight and tomorrow will again be in the high 30's.

In any event, yeah, I suppose I could load up on monster sized imperfectly seasoned splits and create an artificial circumstance to make some extended burn claim, but I won't. On the other hand, if I actually resealed the doors and removed the firebrick surround (to reclaim the firebox volume), loaded the stove jam tight and held my breath throughout the burn, I bet I could squeeze an honest 8 hours ('plausible' heat production) out of the old girl.

All for now, except to say thanks again for this forum and for the feedback (and education) I've gotten from various members.

Peter B.

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[johnn]

Hi Peter, just a few thoughts about your gasket surface. Good idea if the product didnt dry too brittle, causing a problem if the door were to be slammed. I have a cement Stove and Gaskett made by KEL KEM,,Canada which the consitency would be good. It calls for kneading before use, but the top portion of the tube still comes out too dry, so you just have to keep plunging and squeezing till the moist stuff finally comes. It sticks very well to the grooves on my double door,, but not worth beans for thr gasket (too dry ?,, the door you close first could be c-clamped shut while you reach through and cure the cement with a propane torch,,,wouldnt work on the other door since it would need to lay on the inner door for spacing reasons. However this could be used to test whatever product you choose to try. (something that remains somewhat pliable seems best) I too have seal issues and have had to rework my hinges due to wear and them oblonging over the years,due to pin wear. have modified it some with pleasant results. My doors have gaskett grooves, however where the door over-lap its just metal to metal. couple years ago, I glued cut strips of fire cloth the thickness of about two credit cards down one side which did a fair job, but havent bothered this year. Burn times not much better than yours, however Its just a steel box, without even a top baffel plate. Theres lots to tinker with when I replace it,however I dont want too small a box, so I`m not sure about secondary, it will be in the garage with little use eventually.

Some type of pourous bandage wrap may work instead of plastic and if the cement imbedded into this fabric,,,would that be so bad? May help hold it together like a scab. Not so sure that a thin layer of white grease on the door gasket area, wouldnt serve as a solution and keep cement from bonding. at least you can cure one door as you work it out.

 

[Peter B.]

ml:

Thanks for the door sealing tips. I haven't given up on the job, but I'm putting it aside for the moment. The Round Oak is my primary heat source, and the warm weather spell has passed, so the stove is back in operation most of the time. Taking some time to think about what I'll try next.

I'm saving this whole thread, so I'll be able to make reference to yours and others' suggestions.

Peter B.

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[Peter B.]

While I'm 'back' for a moment, I thought I'd report on a fire I had yesterday, which I think I could call fairly typical... not an effort to squeeze maximum time out of one fuel load, just a normal fire that I might have on a colder day... with the new mods in place.

It was in the low 30's here most of the day. Though I didn't actually need (all) the heat, I'd wanted to run an 'honest' test fire anyway, so I decided I'd just sweat it out... and, once set, let the fire burn out... noting its progress along the way.

I started at noon with a good bed of coals from the morning fire, and loaded the (approx. 1.5 cubic foot) firebox about 3/4 full - two very chunky splits of oak, one slightly smaller one. The flue temp was still at 400*, so it only took a few minutes for the fire to get up to catalyst temperature... and I let it run hot for a few minutes on the catalyst before I closed the two stove drafts and set the flue damper to about half closed. The secondary air supply remained open.

I didn't touch the controls again for the entire test.

Temperature readings were all taken from the flue pipe probe thermometer at 12" above stovetop. I believe they are _very roughly_ correlatable to stovetop surface temps for my stove.

Hours 1-2 saw constant flue pipe temps of 500*+. Hours 3-4 saw a very gradual decline to about 375* (and on a colder day, I think the end of Hour 4 might have been my reload point). Hours 5-8 saw a similar slow decline as the coals were reduced... finishing below 200*.

At 10 hours, there were still enough coals to light off another fire without difficulty.

During the first few hours, room temperatures ranged from 70* up to 85*+... (and chased me out of the house for a while)... then fell slowly back to 70* by the end of 8 hours.

Though I didn't check for smoke from the chimney during the test, I can usually tell from the appearance of the catalyst and the upper baffle area after a fire how clean the burn was. If there's anything but a minimal white (or colorless) residue, I consider the burn to have been less than optimally clean. Yesterday's fire produced no visible residue.

So... that's the story of one fire... and how many hours it was 'worth' all depends on how you want to view it.

I consider that I got 4 hours of 'usable heat production'... and 10 hours of 'coal retention'... and that's that. Still not enough for room temperature maintenance through a full overnight burn on a cold night, but a fairly respectable output for a 100 year old stove with a reduced firebox capacity that isn't sealed very well.

Peter B.

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[karri0n]

Peter, sounds like you had some decent results. What is the size of the area you're heating?

 

[Peter B.]

Peter, sounds like you had some decent results. What is the size of the area you're heating?

karri0n:

I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but should have included in my last post for 'perspective'.

The area I'm heating is only about 500 square feet.

I spend most of my time in the 'stove room'... sitting not far from the stove itself... and my 'reference' room thermometer is only about 10' from the stove... but sitting in a window frame, which cools it a bit.

I didn't mean to pass off the burn test as any sort of 'significant finding'... just thought I'd report the results of a fairly average fire.

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By and large, I was pleased... but there's still PLENTY of room for improvement.

Peter B.

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