A Sustainable Economy? Ideas on how to get there.

[Frozen Canuck]

I have listened to this particular talk a few times & thought I would share it here & see what it generates in terms of discussion. Maybe like the economist says, all we really need is triple digit oil prices & the rest will work itself out.

Hope the link works, if not you can listen here: www.cbc.ca/ideas/episodes/2013/03/13/the-end-of-growth/

Yep, link wont allow an extension, sorry you will have to copy to your browser. ETA tried it & link works.

Fair warning 54 mins long so maybe while your working in the house & can crank up the volume.

 

[dougstove]

I have read (forget where) that our current period is a sort of end-of-childhood examination period for humanity.
-Will we get through the ~2050 population peak before ecosystem collapse?
-Will we learn to manage income distribution in a stable economy, rather than relying on continual rapid growth?

If we pass, we could head into a golden age.
If we fail our test, things will be dismal.
The current per capita GDP of the world is already ~$10,000, which for a family of 4 is $40,000.
If we did things right, that is not bad.

What worries me is our short attention span. We are bad at paying attention to routine improvements, and we are bad at distinguishing the important (energy policy) from the trivial (Miley Cyrus).

 

[btuser]

10k per person would mean USA GDP is to be cut by 75%.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Our whole economy is "underwater" IMO, unsustainable,even for the midterm let alone the long term. Probably healthcare is at the top of the list of unsustainables followed by defense,interest on the debt and retirement promises,not necessarily in that order,pick your poison. Triple digit oil prices would only collapse the house of cards more quickly.

 

[btuser]

We already have tripe digit oil. The debt is a tally of defense spending for protection that we provide. Japan, Europe, and until recently China are depending on us to keep the spice flowing. Their currency reserves are our debt that we used to pay for our military.

The petrodollar's days are numbered for sure. However the tech for renewables is still not competitive. We've got a few more years of empire left.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

We already have tripe digit oil. The debt is a tally of defense spending for protection that we provide. .

The debt includes much more than defense spending. 1.3 trillion just for the bush tax cuts alone. Add in all the other govt spending that is underfunded,they are now borrowing(started this year) to pay current SS recipients.Cashing in all those SS IOUs. Still paying for 2 previous wars. Its a whole package of unsustainability. IT will be interesting to see who gets a cut of the ever shrinking pie. I guess whoever has the most lobbiest,s and the deepest pockets. The nations wealth has largely already been transfered to the 1%.

 

[Where2]

While everything continues to sort itself out, I will continue life with a pair of 40+mpg vehicles in my driveway, and a grid-tied 4.4kW PV system on my roof. (generated 20.3kWh today)

I'm continually baffled by people who work hard for what $$ they make, only to choose to give large chunks of their hard earned personal wealth away on frivolous stuff.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

The economy currently requires additional generations to be larger, and to feed money to those already retired.

We used to call that a pyramid scheme.

As an advocate for population stabilization and reduction, it gives me heartburn

 

[firebroad]

We cannot sustain ourselves if we continue to be a nation of consumers. Just try to ask people to do without. I am as guilty as others, I have come to depend on the creature comforts; however, I suppose I feel as though I have earned them after a lifetime of hard work and sacrifice.
Like AP said, we cannot sustain our current momentum in population for long.

 

[Grisu]

I think that economist underestimates what a sustainable economy really means. To become truly sustainable we need to:

- not use any non-renewable resource (non-renewable on a timescale relevant to humankind like 100,000 or maybe 1,000,000 years)
- have zero waste that cannot be reused or returned to the biosphere to be used there (without accumulation like carbon dioxide)
- to not use any resource beyond its regenerative limit; e. g. no draw-down of already preexisting stocks (like catching more fish than grows up per year)
- use only renewable energy sources like sun (and its derivatives), geothermal, gravitation (e. g. tide), nuclear fusion (if we ever figure it out) and maybe nuclear fission (depends how long we have fissionable material).

Judging from those, we are far, far beyond a sustainable economy. Ask yourself when you drop something in your garbage can how sustainable that is.

 

[Delta-T]

No worries friends...just choose your faction now...Morlocks or Eloi? Just a 'heads up', for those who desire to join my team (the Morlocks of course)...invest in BBQ sauce.... by the case load.

 

[firebroad]

No worries friends...just choose your faction now...Morlocks or Eloi? Just a 'heads up', for those who desire to join my team (the Morlocks of course)...invest in BBQ sauce.... by the case load.

Yoikes!

 

[Jags]

...invest in BBQ sauce.... by the case load.

Hoisin sauce will also mask gamey flavors.

 

[dougstove]

10k per person would mean USA GDP is to be cut by 75%.

But what fraction of current USA GDP is counting expenditures of borrowed money on current consumption?

 

[Grisu]

But what fraction of current USA GDP is counting expenditures of borrowed money on current consumption?

All money is borrowed money; the question is only by whom and when.

 

[fossil]

Mara, come quick, we have to run away from Delta-T. NOW, HURRY, Mara, HURRY

 

[Adios Pantalones]

I dunno. Yvette Mimieux, and more or less pissa fruit for a good run of say 25 years...

Delta can bite me

 

[fossil]

Whoa, and here all along, I thought Delta-T had four fingers on each hand.

 

[begreen]

That's not delta, no mankini.

 

[Delta-T]

That's not delta, no mankini.

the likeness is staggering, but its all about the details.

 

[Seasoned Oak]

Boy did this thread veer off course ,where are the Mods?

 

[Jags]

Boy did this thread veer off course ,where are the Mods?

There are already 3 here, how many more do you want?

(A course correction is easy - simply post something that applies to the subject matter.)

 

[Seasoned Oak]

There are already 3 here, how many more do you want?

(A course correction is easy - simply post something that applies to the subject matter.)

Thats OK pictures of "hot"woman should be included in every thread, new rules!

 

[Jags]

In the honor of course correction:
Sustainability is a constantly changing target. I remember when 100 bushel per acre corn was a big deal. Now 200+ is expected. Changes like this move the target. Now how many people can we feed?? (just one example).

 

[Seasoned Oak]

In the honor of course correction:
Sustainability is a constantly changing target. I remember when 100 bushel per acre corn was a big deal. Now 200+ is expected. Changes like this move the target. Now how many people can we feed?? (just one example).

We can now grow food with LED lights in hydro tanks with fish underneath. Dont even need sunlight. Some old buildings use indoor compost for heat in winter as well. A nice repurpose use of old abandoned buildings. Might work well in detroit.