Adding basement egress windows

[EbS-P]

I am planning to add basement egress windows. I will contract this job done. I will be adding two windows one for each bedroom.

Two questions.

First would you put them in a single window well or two separate ones.

Second would you add a drain(s) to the window well(s)

They will be going in this wall on the front of the house.

I have one of the very very few basements in the area so this is not a common job for contractors.

View attachment 298163

 

[Ashful]

Yes, add drains. Is there a place downhill from the depth of the intended well, toward which you can run the drain?

I've never seen a house with more than one egress window, as most basements around here have at least one walk-out wall or at least a door to stairs at one end. The egress window takes care of safety requirements for any bedroom or living space at the other end of said basement. I would think code would dictate if you're allowed to use one well for two egress windows, as of course it is a (somewhat minor) safety concession to have egress from one room compromised by a potential fire in an adjacent room sharing the same egress well.

Also check on your local requirements for covering the well, to prevent people falling in. Those I've seen around here have a wood or iron grate over them, which can be easily unlatched from inside. The house in which I grew up had large window boxes built over each of the egress windows, which extended up to knee height at the front and met the wall below the first floor window sills. These had a glazed glass window top hinged at the wall, and prevented anyone from falling into a well. The best in 1950's technology.

Edit, I don't have any photos of the cool old window boxes from the house in which I grew up, but here's an uglier modern equivalent. Assuming you get snow, check local code for allowance of these, as they would not be easy to open with a foot or two of snow on them.

 

[EbS-P]

Yes, add drains. Is there a place downhill from the depth of the intended well, toward which you can run the drain?

I've never seen a house with more than one egress window, as most basements around here have at least one walk-out wall or at least a door to stairs at one end. The egress window takes care of safety requirements for any bedroom or living space at the other end of said basement. I would think code would dictate if you're allowed to use one well for two egress windows, as of course it is a (somewhat minor) safety concession to have egress from one room compromised by a potential fire in an adjacent room sharing the same egress well.

Also check on your local requirements for covering the well, to prevent people falling in. Those I've seen around here have a wood or iron grate over them, which can be easily unlatched from inside. The house in which I grew up had large window boxes built over each of the egress windows, which extended up to knee height at the front and met the wall below the first floor window sills. These had a glazed glass window top hinged at the wall, and prevented anyone from falling into a well. The best in 1950's technology.

Edit, I don't have any photos of the cool old window boxes from the house in which I grew up, but here's an uglier modern equivalent. Assuming you get snow, check local code for allowance of these, as they would not be easy to open with a foot or two of snow on them.

View attachment 298164

Basement is a walkout on the back side so the drain could be a daylight drain. No snow here. Just lots of rain. Adding two bedrooms. One window each.

I did contemplate looking into residential fire sprinkler system for the basement and whether or not they would grant an exception to the windows if one was installed. Looks like somewhere they are doing pvc sprinklers systems.

 

[Ashful]

Basement is a walkout on the back side so the drain could be a daylight drain. No snow here. Just lots of rain. Adding two bedrooms. One window each.

I did contemplate looking into residential fire sprinkler system for the basement and whether or not they would grant an exception to the windows if one was installed. Looks like somewhere they are doing pvc sprinklers systems.

Residential sprinkler systems have become a requirement in new homes for may townships around here. I guess you'd want to look up actual stat's on this, but from my casual observation among people I know living in neighborhoods built to this requirement, they're causing far more damage than they're saving.

 

[stoveliker]

I would add two egress windows. What if a fire exists just outside the door of one bedroom. The folks in the other bedroom can safely exit through their egress window, but the one is going to be trapped. That's precisely the reason for adding these windows...

 

[EbS-P]

Residential sprinkler systems have become a requirement in new homes for may townships around here. I guess you'd want to look up actual stat's on this, but from my casual observation among people I know living in neighborhoods built to this requirement, they're causing far more damage than they're saving.

I would agree to that statement. But I gladly flood my basement to save a life. I have a basement with garage door and a stream less than 200’ from the door. And less than 2 miles from a tidal estuary in hurricane county. It’s probably gonna get wet one way or another sometime in the future.

Currently there is no ceiling just open to joists and subfloor.

 

[Ashful]

I would agree to that statement. But I gladly flood my basement to save a life.

Agreed, but I do suspect dollars spent in better detection and alarm is much more likely to save life, than anything you could ever spend on residential sprinkler systems.

I have 22 smoke, heat, and CO sensors in my house, in two separate systems. One system is wireless on 10 year lithium batteries, the other hard-wired with AC power and comm with alkaline backup. Mix of smoke, heat, and CO detectirs, with the CO’s replaced every 7th year and smoke every 10 years. No way will there ever be a fire here, where we don’t receive early warning to get out, and the 16 detectors on the wireless system are monitored by our alarm co. for automatic notification to the fire co.

 

[FramerJ]

Definitely add drains and preferably backfill with gravel.

 

[bholler]

Residential sprinkler systems have become a requirement in new homes for may townships around here. I guess you'd want to look up actual stat's on this, but from my casual observation among people I know living in neighborhoods built to this requirement, they're causing far more damage than they're saving.

How are they causing damage? Residential systems are dry systems that are only charged when heat sets off one of the heads.

 

[Ashful]

How are they causing damage? Residential systems are dry systems that are only charged when heat sets off one of the heads.

Maybe that's a more recent innovation? My mother owns a home in a neighborhood built 1998 - 2002'ish, where more than a half dozen (to my knowledge, maybe more) have already failed, and caused massive flooding of the house. It's an over-55 community, lots of snowbirds, so many of the houses sit empty (but heated) all winter. The worst cases of loss have been those that let loose while the house is empty, in some cases the water has run for days before a neighbor noticed.

I believe most of the failures have been in the PVC piping, NOT the sprinkler heads, but this is third-hand information. However, I can verify there have been cases of basements completely filling up, to where water pressure blew out the windows, before a neighbor noticed. Borough water supply, so infinite.

 

[bholler]

Maybe that's a more recent innovation? My mother owns a home in a neighborhood built 1998 - 2002'ish, where more than a half dozen (to my knowledge, maybe more) have already failed, and caused massive flooding of the house. It's an over-55 community, lots of snowbirds, so many of the houses sit empty (but heated) all winter. The worst cases of loss have been those that let loose while the house is empty, in some cases the water has run for days before a neighbor noticed.

I believe most of the failures have been in the PVC piping, NOT the sprinkler heads, but this is third-hand information. However, I can verify there have been cases of basements completely filling up, to where water pressure blew out the windows, before a neighbor noticed. Borough water supply, so infinite.

Yeah that type os system hasn't been used for quite a while. It was actually code in pa for a couple months but contractors fought it. At that time they were all dry systems using a reserve tank and pump. So only about 300 gallons available. Bigger houses would have more than one system so about 300 gals per zone.

 

[Ashful]

Yeah that type os system hasn't been used for quite a while. It was actually code in pa for a couple months but contractors fought it. At that time they were all dry systems using a reserve tank and pump. So only about 300 gallons available. Bigger houses would have more than one system so about 300 gals per zone.

That's a much more sensible rig, and one I wouldn't mind having.

I remember having halon systems installed in several equipment rooms where I used to work, which present more human danger, but much less equipment and structure damage. I wonder if there are dry media systems less hazardous to humans, which could be employed in residential situation, although the 300 gallon limited water supply seems to be a reasonable compromise in that direction.

 

[stoveliker]

I see halon is still legal to be used in the US - though it is not being produced anymore. (I believe it's been banned from use in Europe, with a plane usage ban lagging by 15 or 20 yrs or so).

We once extinguished a fire (the making of which was my doing) in a shed with an old potbelly stove on which a pan of beeswax was being melted. Big wooden shed. The wooden door was closed but not latched. It blew open and we saw a column of fire. 2 ft dia, 10 ft up to the ceiling. Not sure if the explosion of the was blew the door open or the door blew open igniting the was.
In any case it had boiled over onto the stove. The stove was in the back of a 20 ft wide and 35 ft long shop... One 3 second squirt of halon and I was choking, but the fire was gone. Amazing stuff. Blew my mind how well it worked.

 

[Ashful]

I see halon is still legal to be used in the US - though it is not being produced anymore. (I believe it's been banned from use in Europe, with a plane usage ban lagging by 15 or 20 yrs or so).

We once extinguished a fire (the making of which was my doing) in a shed with an old potbelly stove on which a pan of beeswax was being melted. Big wooden shed. The wooden door was closed but not latched. It blew open and we saw a column of fire. 2 ft dia, 10 ft up to the ceiling. Not sure if the explosion of the was blew the door open or the door blew open igniting the was.
In any case it had boiled over onto the stove. The stove was in the back of a 20 ft wide and 35 ft long shop... One 3 second squirt of halon and I was choking, but the fire was gone. Amazing stuff. Blew my mind how well it worked.

Yep. I have one Halon extinguisher in my kitchen, which I can have serviced still, but I don't think you can buy them residential applications anymore. What's left is usually dedicated to server rooms, and due to no production of replacement, these systems have become very expensive.

Back in 2000-2001, when we did these systems, there was no equal substitute. So, you just paid the high price for Halon, the production of which had been banned since at least the 1990's. But I suspect that has changed by now.

 

[stoveliker]

We had one from a plane indeed. Best basement fire protection one could wish for (though the egress window would still be needed, as you really can't breathe after discharging the thing. Strange feeling that was).

 

[peakbagger]

I looked into what I needed to do to become cerified for home sprinkler installs several years ago. Not sure if things have changed but insurance companies supported home sprinkler systems wholeheartedly. In many cases they would waive deductibles for damage due to water leaks as the systems if installed correctly effectively stop structure fires. I know of few folks who built expensive summer places in rural towns or (townships) where the only way they could get insurance was to install sprinklers.

Residential sprinklers differ from commercial sprinklers, they are fast response and typically are equipped with bi metallic springs that open and close the heads depending on room temp. Commercial sprinkler heads usually have a fusible link, once it melts or break,s the sprinkler head is running until the system is shut down. The system I was looking at was the Uponor system that uses the existing PEX domestic plumbing to double as the sprinkler piping. They do the design, the installer submits detailed house plans and Uponor does the design. Pex does not split when frozen. They are not cheap to install especially for homes that are not on city water.

 

[Ashful]

So, mom just got back from Alaska (should've had her visit Poindexter!), and dropped by today. She confirmed the systems built in "phase 1 and phase 2" of her development are live-feed systems, that will pump infinite water into the house, if there is a failure. It was one of her neighbors who had the entire house fill with water, until it blew out a first floor window and started spilling into the back yard. The damage was so severe, the house was bulldozed after the insurance cleared.

She has special permission from her home insurance provider, to shut the system down when she travels. In fact, my bringing it up reminded her that she should revisit the subject with the insurance company, as it has been a few years. They keep the system live when they're in the house, but always shut it down when away for more than a few days.

She also confirmed that "phase 3 and phase 4" of the development got a newer type of system, likely similar to what bholler already described, which will not completely fill the house with water upon a single failure in the system. She also mentioned that some of her neighbors, while not experiencing a dramatic failure that flooded their home overnight, had issues with small leaks inside wall cavities leading to massive mold problems. A few isolated incidents among 50+ homes, built in her phase of the development.

Hopefully useful information for anyone considering the addition of a sprinkler system.

 

[Poindexter]

I know of two gentlemen who serve in USA armor. If the (Abrams) tank catches on fire they are more worried about getting out before the Halon starts discharging than they are worried about the ammo cooking off. They are neither one idiots and would both be well respected members here in short order if they were to register. Halon is fabulous stuff for fire suppression, but not something to breathe.

 

[Poindexter]

@EbS-P , your local code is going to prevail. I don't see a problem with digging one well for both egress windows, but I am not the underwriter on your homeowner's policy. Definitely drainage. Whatever the biggest pipe you can get economically, get that one, and keep it cleared out.

I cannot decide if you are near Wilmington or closer to Beaufort, but it doesn't matter. When a Beaufort 3 or better comes ashore you are dealing with rain like few people on the planet have ever experienced. I was up on the piedmont near Raleigh for Fran in 96, you are going to want that drain pipe open at both ends; but if you get to brush out 6" diameter pipe with a chimney brush every year, you get to keep the added bedrooms. Make sure that drain pipe gets laid straight so you can keep it open yourself.

Good luck and best wishes.

 

[EbS-P]

I would add two egress windows. What if a fire exists just outside the door of one bedroom. The folks in the other bedroom can safely exit through their egress window, but the one is going to be trapped. That's precisely the reason for

Maybe that's a more recent innovation? My mother owns a home in a neighborhood built 1998 - 2002'ish, where more than a half dozen (to my knowledge, maybe more) have already failed, and caused massive flooding of the house. It's an over-55 community, lots of snowbirds, so many of the houses sit empty (but heated) all winter. The worst cases of loss have been those that let loose while the house is empty, in some cases the water has run for days before a neighbor noticed.

I believe most of the failures have been in the PVC piping, NOT the sprinkler heads, but this is third-hand information. However, I can verify there have been cases of basements completely filling up, to where water pressure blew out the windows, before a neighbor noticed. Borough water supply, so infinite.

That’s why you have home insurance. Pipes leak. Probably pales in comparison to the losses do to water heaters.

The survivability of a fire in our house has diminished since we have opened up walls and stairways but increased with casement windows a 3 year old can open, crawl out.

I should probably just call around to see if I could get a quote even.

That's a much more sensible rig, and one I wouldn't mind having.

I remember having halon systems installed in several equipment rooms where I used to work, which present more human danger, but much less equipment and structure damage. I wonder if there are dry media systems less hazardous to humans, which could be employed in residential situation, although the 300 gallon limited water supply seems to be a reasonable compromise in that direction.

if you are on city water I don’t see the point of any storage. Chances of more than two heads activating inside a residence is small.

@EbS-P , your local code is going to prevail. I don't see a problem with digging one well for both egress windows, but I am not the underwriter on your homeowner's policy. Definitely drainage. Whatever the biggest pipe you can get economically, get that one, and keep it cleared out.

I cannot decide if you are near Wilmington or closer to Beaufort, but it doesn't matter. When a Beaufort 3 or better comes ashore you are dealing with rain like few people on the planet have ever experienced. I was up on the piedmont near Raleigh for Fran in 96, you are going to want that drain pipe open at both ends; but if you get to brush out 6" diameter pipe with a chimney brush every year, you get to keep the added bedrooms. Make sure that drain pipe gets laid straight so you can keep it open yourself.

Good luck and best wishes.

In Wilmington. Florence dropped 40” of rain. I probably will make a cover out of polycarbonate roof panels. I imagine they will just install 4” drain line.
Figuring 4” per hour rainfall for an hour is probably on the high side but within reason. I have eves that will cover 12-18”. So worst case we are draining 100 gallons an hour if I keep my gutters clean. I just had an 8x12 rain garden installed and it can fill up in 15 minutes being fed by a 4” line.

I doubt the job gets inspected. Could be wrong. Call my insurance to tell them I had a wood stove and they asked if I had a fireplace. When I said two they said I’m covered.

 

[Ashful]

That’s why you have home insurance. Pipes leak. Probably pales in comparison to the losses do to water heaters.

I suppose we'd have to look at the regional and national stat's, but I can't agree with that. I've been alive a long time, and my family owned a plumbing business for my first few decades of life, and I've never seen a single house flood to anywhere near the same drama from a failed water heater. But I know more than one acquaintance who has had their home completely ruined by a failed fire sprinkler system. Maybe my experience is outside the norm, but I really doubt it.

Do also realize that I come from three generations of firefighters, my grandfather and great-grandfather being founders of two of our local fire companies, and my father having served as a fire inspector and professional investigative engineer on several fire insurance cases. It's something I've been around my entire life, so I don't take fire lightly, or as something that could never happen in my home.

 

[EbS-P]

Didn’t read all the way through.

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/files/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/suppression/ossprinklers.pdf

 

[Ashful]

Didn’t read all the way through.

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/files/news-and-research/fire-statistics-and-reports/suppression/ossprinklers.pdf

Interesting article. Lots of content to mine. I also only read part of it, but this sentence jumped out at me:

"Fire departments responded to an estimated average of 26,000 sprinkler activations caused by a system failure or malfunction per year and 29,700 unintentional sprinkler activations per year in 2015–2019."

One thing I think will be difficult to obtain from a report like this is the actual contribution of the sprinkler system to the prevention of death or property loss. One might suppose that the homes with properly maintained sprinklers systems are also the same homes with properly installed and maintained smoke and fire detectors, and the early detection affected both rates, but the data included in the report doesn't appear (at first glance) to be so granular.

 

[begreen]

How are they causing damage? Residential systems are dry systems that are only charged when heat sets off one of the heads.

Local requirement here is high-pressure water.

 

[bholler]

Local requirement here is high-pressure water.

Really I thought the system I was talking about was nationwide. It's still high pressure water just not high pressure sitting in the lines