American Harvest 6039 MF Running Weird and Shutting Down

[Sno762]

Hi All,

New member here. Spent the past few days searching the Web for some answers about my stove and found a wealth of information on this site. Actually learning some good information completely unrelated to the issue I was looking for. Definitely appreciate the knowledge base here so far! However, I think I’m having a problem that is unique enough to not be prevalent in the search results.

I have an American Harvest (USSC) 6039 multi-fuel, and it’s the early model with the “A, B, C” control panel. Unit has operated pretty much flawlessly the past 7 seasons, consuming roughly 2 tons of wood pellets per season. I’ve had to replace the usual suspects such as the agitator motor and the auger motor, each twice.

Just recently the stove started running erratically. Best I can describe it is like the voltage drops off for a split second then comes back. Think of a something running steady and smooth, then cutting out sporadically but frequently. Then it runs smooth again for a while.

Well now when it starts to run weird, it will sometimes actually set a code of “E” in the heat range and “1” in the blower speed. From what I can tell this is a high limit switch issue. Typically stove is running on heat range 1-3, and this “E-1” error pops up well before anything seems to be too hot to warrant a shutdown.

Stove has had a thorough cleaning just 2 days ago, including brushing of the stove pipe and vacuuming out behind the cleanouts, brick, etc. No improvement.

I have 2 of these same model stoves, so I shotgunned a bunch of parts at the stove I’m using now from the other functional stove in my vacant residence. I know the “spare” stove is functional as it was just running over Thanksgiving without issue. I swapped over the control board, high limit switch, and exhaust blower. All same model OEM parts. No improvement.

Even tried to bypass the high limit switch with the paperclip trick. No improvement.

Anybody ever run into something like this? Any help tracking this issue down is greatly appreciated!

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

You haven't pinched some wiring in the unit have you?

 

[Sno762]

You haven't pinched some wiring in the unit have you?

I don't believe so. I've always been very careful with the wiring when replacing parts and removing panels of the stove. All of the wiring is properly routed. If/when it goes into shutdown again, I'll double-check the wiring as I'm running out of options of what else it could be. The cut-out/voltage drop is very intermittent, sometimes happening every 1-2 seconds, other times it runs smooth for 5-20 minutes or so.

Right now it's cutting out again, specifically I can hear the room blower motor stepping down in RPM when it happens. Only lasts a split second then returns to normal, but happens frequently when it happens. It doesn't make sense.

 

[SmokeyTheBear]

Does that blower require periodic lubrication?

Blowers normally have thermal protection which can cause them to switch off and then back on.

 

[Sno762]

I can't answer with 100% certainty that the motor does not require periodic lubrication, but I do not see any reference to lubrication of the blowers in the manual. For reference, this stove uses USSC part 80472 for distribution/convection blower, which is what I incorrectly referred to as the "room blower".

After the stove shut off again 5 hours ago, I switched the distribution blower out with the one from my other stove. It's running better and hasn't shut off (yet) but still has the intermittent "cutout" but does not seem as bad or frequent. When this "cutout" occurred with the other motor, it would flash the "Heat Range" LCD in the control panel and the "OFF" and "B" lights at the same time as the split-second cutout. With this swapped motor, I still see the flashing in the LCD but don't see flashing of the "OFF" and "B" lights so it seems whatever is going on is at least not as severe with this other distribution blower, and it hasn't shut off yet which it normally would have by now. This swapped in blower is definitely used, having seen probably a good solid 6 seasons of operation compared to 7 of the other removed blower. Perhaps the blowers just get old and begin to draw too much power to allow the other stove components to run?

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'd be looking at the wall plug and service wiring. Sounds like it's the supply, possibly the thermal breaker in the breaker panel. They do go bad with age.

 

[Sno762]

I'd be looking at the wall plug and service wiring. Sounds like it's the supply, possibly the thermal breaker in the breaker panel. They do go bad with age.

I definitely considered the electrical supply. The same circuit and outlet operated a 1500 watt electric heater and a floor vacuum cleaner (11 amp or whatever) no problem. Power cord to the stove was swapped with another known good one with no improvement. Checked electrical connections inside the stove and they were clean and tight. If the same circuit and outlet can operate those appliances, I would expect it should not have any problem operating the lower draw of the stove?

Here are a couple of videos showing what it's doing. (sorry for the sideways video - taken with the phone)

In this video it's cutting out quite a bit, and is at a higher blower setting:
(broken link removed to https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42850970/VID_20150104_112925_066.mp4)

In this video it's not cutting out quite as bad:
(broken link removed to https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/42850970/VID_20150104_113027_396.mp4)

When this cutting out nonsense gets bad, the stove shuts off and shows a solid "C" light and solid "OFF" light with a flashing "B" light. This has happened even with the high limit switch bypassed.

I noticed while studying the stove that when the stove has this little power problem, the heat and blower speed settings flash each other. For example, if heat is at "1" and blower is at "9", when it cuts out the displays will show their current value plus the value of the other LCD. Heat would show "1" with a flash of "9". Weird.

 

[Sno762]

When this cutting out nonsense gets bad, the stove shuts off and shows a solid "C" light and solid "OFF" light with a flashing "B" light. This has happened even with the high limit switch bypassed.

Forgot to add that when the stove starts cutting out and does actually shut off (doesn't shut off all the time), if I simply press the "ON" button, it comes back on and seems to run fine for a while (5-20 minutes) before going through another spell of cutting out as seen in the videos.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Could be a fluctuating resistance connection on the board itself, all the components are soldered in. Might be a connection working loose from age. You have another board to change out to try? Obviously electrical which is why I'd eliminate the obvious first, line connection and plug to house wiring and circuit breaker. Can you monitor incoming line voltage while the unit is operating?

 

[Sno762]

I swapped a same vintage board from another stove and the problem was exactly the same as it was with the previous board.

I don't currently have a way to monitor line voltage. Looked online and seems like the electrical usage monitors with voltage readout are pretty inexpensive. May go ahead and get one coming as it will be useful in other ways around the house as well.

Thanks for the suggestions so far. Stove has been running all evening with only a few hiccups. Hopefully it stays running strong. -2 here tonight!

 

[Lake Girl]

Manual seems to have no mention of lubrication or not for the blowers ... Have you tried blowing out the windings on the motor? Does the fluctuating blower work well in the spare stove? Have you tried running blower on test cord?

Edit: Have you tried switching out low limit? Obviously not the error message the board was purportedly giving but it does control convection blower turning on/off...

 

[SidecarFlip]

Manual seems to have no mention of lubrication or not for the blowers ... Have you tried blowing out the windings on the motor? Does the fluctuating blower work well in the spare stove? Have you tried running blower on test cord?

Edit: Have you tried switching out low limit? Obviously not the error message the board was purportedly giving but it does control convection blower turning on/off...

...or jump it.

I don't have the old style board. Mine is the 4 button all digital. I upgraded when I fried mine years ago.

USSC's manuals are pretty crptic about drive maintenance no matter what model. Mine get cleaned and oiled regularly and gearboxes repacked with grease. It's a hostile atmosphere back there anyway.

 

[Sno762]

Manual seems to have no mention of lubrication or not for the blowers ... Have you tried blowing out the windings on the motor? Does the fluctuating blower work well in the spare stove? Have you tried running blower on test cord?

Edit: Have you tried switching out low limit? Obviously not the error message the board was purportedly giving but it does control convection blower turning on/off...

Early this morning the stove was running poorly again after running reasonably well most of the night, although having tried to shut down several times. I decided to do some research on the distribution/convection blower motor. The motor displayed the following information on the label:
T.P. ( I assume that means thermal protection as I don't see a use for the "other TP" here )
Sealed Ball Brg
Perm Lubricated
No oiling

Well, we all know how well some perm. lubricated items are... I try to keep the inside of the stove cabinet fairly clean, but there was some gunk buildup on the blower motor itself that could possibly reduce the motor's ability to cool efficiently. I thoroughly cleaned the original blower with a small paintbrush and gentle compressed air to remove all dust and gunk accumulation, paying careful attention to clean the motor and its cooling fan. Then put a drop of oil on the shaft near the "permanently lubricated ball bearing". Sadly, I can feel some slight roughness in the ball bearing when slowly spinning the fan and it does have a bit of noise to it while operating, so perhaps it's time to replace that motor anyhow...

Next I used low pressure compressed air to blow off the control board, especially between the board and the control panel. Read that little tip on another thread here.

Checked all wiring in the stove -- all looked good. Connections are all tight.

Stove has been running for nearly 5 hours now. It hiccuped a few times in the first couple of hours and then threw a fit and tried to shutdown once (knock on wood) shortly after I increased HR 2 to HR 4, about 3 hours into the run, but has been running well since (knock on wood again).

If it continues to run well, I would have to suspect the dirty convection blower motor was thermal protecting itself which somehow caused a backfeed or something weird with the electrical which triggered the funky lights and general freaking out of the stove. I don't know... I think I'll look for a replacement anyhow as this one is a bit noisy with the bearing(s) getting rough.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Permanently lubricated is a nice way to say lubricated until failure..... Sort of like automobile suspensions today... 'lubricated for life'. Problem is, who determines what that life is?? lol

I call it engineered obsolescence myself. I'd be looking at a replacement convection fan motor assembly or a replacement motor but be apprised that it's very hard to seperate the convection fan from the motor shaft because of the atmosphere the fan runs in virtually locks it to the shaft. It can be done by extended soaking in a good corrosion release solution like BP Blaster but it's not quick and oftentimes, it will not seperate plus the fan becomes brittle from thcombustion heat and can actually shatter if mishandled.

My suggestion is bite the bullet and order the assembly (fan/motor/outer shell) plus a new gasket. I never replace my gaskets but it's not a bad idea if renewing the assembly. I use red hi-temp RTV to seal the outer to the housing as usually the gasket won't seperate from the housing in one piece anyway and I pull mine apart yearly and vacuum out the housing and transition anyway.

 

[Sno762]

Permanently lubricated is a nice way to say lubricated until failure..... Sort of like automobile suspensions today... 'lubricated for life'. Problem is, who determines what that life is?? lol

I call it engineered obsolescence myself. I'd be looking at a replacement convection fan motor assembly or a replacement motor but be apprised that it's very hard to seperate the convection fan from the motor shaft because of the atmosphere the fan runs in virtually locks it to the shaft. It can be done by extended soaking in a good corrosion release solution like BP Blaster but it's not quick and oftentimes, it will not seperate plus the fan becomes brittle from thcombustion heat and can actually shatter if mishandled.

My suggestion is bite the bullet and order the assembly (fan/motor/outer shell) plus a new gasket. I never replace my gaskets but it's not a bad idea if renewing the assembly. I use red hi-temp RTV to seal the outer to the housing as usually the gasket won't seperate from the housing in one piece anyway and I pull mine apart yearly and vacuum out the housing and transition anyway.

I agree with you completely. Having replaced too many "permanently lubricated" parts as a mechanic, I'll take a good ol' grease fitting all day long over the "new and improved" perma-lubed parts. Such is the way our throwaway society is today...

Regarding replacement, I looked at the fan on the motor shaft for about 3 seconds before I decided that would be a lost cause on trying to remove it while keeping the metal fan perfectly straight and maintaining its balance. Better off to get an assembly and save some time plus avoid the potential of causing a balance issue, vibration and premature motor failure. Nothing worse than doing things twice because it wasn't done right the first time.

So I was looking at complete blower assemblies with housing, motor and fan. Apparently this uses the 80472 assembly which has been superseded by the 80472a, and of which there are apparently several variations of the 80472a some of which look completely different than OEM. Any input on whether to go with OEM ( $$$ ) or will one of these other replacements ( $$ ) work? From what I've read, they use a different style of motor and operate at a lower RPM than OEM, but are supposedly quieter.

The RTV is a good idea, thanks. The gaskets peeled apart upon removal but sealed back quite well for now.

 

[SidecarFlip]

As much as I consider it stupid priced, I'd go OEM. Thats one part I always bite the bullet on but I would disassemble the new one and add lubrication ports to the end plates and some quality high temp never sieze to the fixing screw in the new fan hub as it migh make disassembly remotely possible in the future.

Mine runs an outbooard fan between the housing and the motor can (I presume to pull off as much heat from the shaft as possible and prolong the bearing life), but then I added oil ports long ago and a drop or 2 every spring along with cleaning..

I would be very leery of any CA fan operating at a lower rpm. shaft speed directly impacts cfm and negative draft which your stove requires. Me, I'd err on the OEM spec side without any hesitation.

I'm on my second one btw and I did disassemble the whole thing and modify the can to accept oil and I pulled the inner shield on both bearings (left the outer intact) so I could get oil in the bearing. A sewing needle will pull the shield real easily.

 

[Owen1508]

Hi All,



Even tried to bypass the high limit switch with the paperclip trick. No improvement.

Anybody ever run into something like this? Any help tracking this issue down is greatly appreciated!

The Thermo disc on that unit CANNOT be by passed, The paperclip trick will cause an err 1. Try disconnecting one of the leads totally this will "by-pass" the switch.

 

[Sno762]

The Thermo disc on that unit CANNOT be by passed, The paperclip trick will cause an err 1. Try disconnecting one of the leads totally this will "by-pass" the switch.

I determined this particular thermodisc was normally "closed", as it showed very little resistance (0.03 ohms) on my multimeter when it was at room temperature, whereas if it was normally "open" and snapped closed upon reaching its high limit temperature, it would have read infinite resistance at room temperature. Therefore I jumped the switch with the paperclip to simulate it a completed circuit as it seemed to be at temperatures below 250F. Perhaps they make some different models of high limit switches that work differently? The USSC part number on this switch is 80455.

*** Update ***

After carefully cleaning and oiling the convection blower and blowing the little bit of dust/gunk out of the control board as described a few posts up, the stove has ran perfectly for over 24 hours. I'm still going to order a new convection blower assembly but for now it's working and it's toasty warm inside while it's subzero outside. Thank you everybody for your help and suggestions trying to figure out this obscure problem!

 

[SidecarFlip]

Just keep the old one habdy for a spare.... Clean it and oil it and put it away for a rainy day.. They all fail eventually, even your yet to be ordered one will puke eventually.

 

[Sno762]

Just to update this, the new blower has been working well and actually puts out just a bit more air than the old one. Stove is back to running like a champ. Thank you everybody for the all of the help!

 

[Owen1508]

I determined this particular thermodisc was normally "closed", as it showed very little resistance (0.03 ohms) on my multimeter when it was at room temperature, whereas if it was normally "open" and snapped closed upon reaching its high limit temperature, it would have read infinite resistance at room temperature. Therefore I jumped the switch with the paperclip to simulate it a completed circuit as it seemed to be at temperatures below 250F. Perhaps they make some different models of high limit switches that work differently? The USSC part number on this switch is 80455.

*** Update ***

No the OEM on that unit is part#80390 but on a 80455 that is correct sorry, my bad to assume which disc you had.

 

[Sno762]

No the OEM on that unit is part#80390 but on a 80455 that is correct sorry, my bad to assume which disc you had.

No worries sir! I appreciate the suggestion - makes a guy double-check everything.