Another new guy/Lessons learned here.

[tg4360]

Hello everyone,

Another new guy here. I’ve been lurking and learning for about a month now and this place has been a great resource.

I’d pitched my girlfriend on the idea of putting a stove in our fireplace in order to at least lower the oil consumption (free standing radiators in a ‘20s Mediterranean stucco un-insulated, somewhat leaky windows house) and she liked the idea when I told her that the stove would make the room feel even better than the fireplace did when it was roaring and that we’d not be sending all the room air up the flue.

I knew there was a proper way to connect a free standing stove but reading here got me the information to make sure I do a proper direct connection. I’m doing direct connect this year and with the money we save I’ve got her signed on to a full reline next year. I’ve installed a stove in a fireplace before and have made a block off plate and will be doing so here.

I have bought some kaowool for insulating the connector pipe and above the block off plate and just need to find some high temp RTV and stove cement. All information gleaned from here.

I’ve already become a wood scrounger. We took down several maple trees in the yard last year so that’s been cut and split and ready to go. While I was at the dump the other day I saw and scored several huge cut trunk sections of red oak. Those were the heaviest peaces of wood I’ve EVER lifted (having an F250 is becoming worth the gas mileage all of a sudden!) I managed to score some hard and softwood from a friends yard and some of the pine had to go back to the dump (Buggy) so I took my ramps and a hand truck and grabbed some of the larger pieces of that oak stash. There are huge branches there still but they are high up on the brush pile and I can’t get to them. So sad. Now I might have to rent a wood splitter to get these things apart so I can cut them up into stove sized pieces.

I have the Englander/Summers heat 13 type stove that we ordered from Lowes sitting on it’s pallet in our sun room. I burned it last weekend just outside in the bed of my truck with a section of 6” vent pipe to provide a little draft. It’s amazing how long this thing burned on a bunch of what I’d call kindling. I got it warm enough to burn off most of the paint smell and it’s ready to go.

I’m going to be using the outside air intake. The fireplace has an ash clean out that goes to the hollow base of the chimney/fireplace and I’m going to run a flexible pipe down it and into the basement space. I’m also planning on fabing up a blower pipe plenum arrangement so that I can have the blower down below switched by a thermistor on the stove. One thing I noticed while I have the stove on its side to replace the pedestal with the legs is that there’s a gap between the air intake box and the stove bottom. If you look inside the ash drawer you can see it. I’m going to seal around this gap and the sides of the air box with high temp RTV. The room the stove is in is drafty enough so with this set up the stove will be drawing only through the vent pipe.

To sum up I wanted to thank you all for what’s turned out to be a huge resource. If I’d not found this place and been able to read all of your experiences I might have just bought some old stove off of Craig’s List and probably would be burning twice as much wood as I’d need to.

Thanks!

Tony G

 

[BrotherBart]

That gap between the intake box and the bottom of the stove is there on purpose. That is how they restrict completely closing the primary air and meet the EPA testing requirements.

If you seal that gap don't depend on being able to close the air control all the way on long burns.

 

[tg4360]

Perhaps I should clarify.

The gap is not the space left over when the air control is closed completely. The gap I'm talking about is between the intake air box and the bottom plate of the stove. No moving parts involved. In other words, If I completely blocked the round air intake, the stove would still have an opening though which it could draw air. Measuring it by eyeball, it's about the same area as the space left open by the air control when that control is fully closed.

What this causes is a situation where even if you have an OAK installed, there is still a draw from the room.

Now if there is a requirement that the intake are not be restricted in case of the outside air supply becoming completely blocked, then I can see why it's there. Other wise, it simply looks like construction tolerance that came out on the fat side.

I hope the Englander types don't take this as a slam on their product. I'm tickled about it but I understand construction costs and tolerances and I'm used to tweaking most of the things I buy to up performance.

TG

 

[BrotherBart]

I understand perfectly where the gap is and what it is for. The reason for it was explained to me by the man that designed the stove. While I was sitting on a stool in the burn lab at the factory. ;-) It ain't sloppy construction. It is designed that way.

Block it you want to. But just don't figure that the primary air rod pushed all the way in is "low burn" like it is stated in the manual anymore. Scratch through that and pencil in "no burn".

 

[tg4360]

Ok I'm not trying to be contentious here but I think we are talking apples and oranges.

I am not talking about the opening left into the stove by the air control. The gap I am speaking of is no where near nor is it effected by the air control.

The only effect from sealing this gap would be that the stove would only be able to draw through the round air inlet and not also from the spaces where the intake air box meets the stove bottom. The air control would still function as designed.

TG

 

[BrotherBart]

I am not going to argue about it. The space is there on all Englander NC-30 and NC-13 stoves. It is where the box the air intake tube is attached to is attached to the bottom of the stove. Do what ya wanna do with it. I felt the same way you do when I saw it on my stove and that is why I asked about it when I was down there. I also walked through the warehouse and observed it on every stove out there.

Enjoy your stove.

 

[tg4360]

No argument my friend.. just a thirst for knowledge on my part.

As long as we are talking the same thing (as I am convinced we are now) it's all good.

My working theory now is that perhaps with the air slide all the way closed they are concerned with there not being enough draw through and OAK. Hopefully some of the Englander folks might chime in on this.

You've convinced me to look further into this before I do anything and that's a good thing, right?

Cheers.

TG

 

[SteveT]

Personally, I have no idea what you guys are going back and forth on as I am not familiar with the stove. But as a couple of words of caution:

1. From what I've seen on these forums Brother Bart knows his stuff and I'd be leery to ignore his advice.

2. There's an ESW guy (Mike Holton) that goes by "Stoveguy2esw" on these boards. I suggest you PM him before making any mods.

 

[Adios Pantalones]

No argument my friend.. just a thirst for knowledge on my part.

As long as we are talking the same thing (as I am convinced we are now) it's all good.

My working theory now is that perhaps with the air slide all the way closed they are concerned with there not being enough draw through and OAK. Hopefully some of the Englander folks might chime in on this.

You've convinced me to look further into this before I do anything and that's a good thing, right?

Cheers.

TG

EPA stoves are generally designed to not allow you to shut the air down completely. This is sometimes done with an air intake that is not adjustable to the point of totally closing. It seems that your stove has an air space designed in so that you cannot completely choke the stove.

 

[tg4360]

Oh I am listening. I've seen Bart's other posts so I'm going to look carefully at it.

I'll post pictures when I get home to make it more clear. Adding to the knowledge base is a good thing.

 

[tg4360]

Ok here are pictures of what we have been talking about for those who don't have this type of stove:

inside

outside to show where I'm looking.

Now in addition to thinking I want all the combustion air drawn from the basement and not from the room to reduce drafts, it's also occurred to me that there could be an efficiency hit if hot air is drawn into the stove vs. cold dense air from farther away. Much like in a car engine, efficiency takes a hit the higher intake are temps are. Granted we are not talking about a narrow band of air/fuel ratios here but I have to think that a more dense charge of air would make for a more efficiency or perhaps make the air control more "throttleable." My gut feeling is that restricting a more dense air charge would give you more control.

 

[tg4360]

Pants,

I'd thought of that (not being able to totally restrict the air inlet) but a careful look inside the intake from the rear shows that the air control uses a metal plate with a triangular cut out to restrict the flow. As you push the rod in the edges of the triangle narrow the opening till there's only the smallest part of the cut out left open. As designed (and I'm not altering this) you cannot completely close off the air intake using the air control.
Due to this, I don’t think the openings are meant to function as alternate air intakes.

Were I to seal off this area and the sides of the box, all air would have to enter the large round intake opening and worst case if for some reason the duct got totally blocked is that the fire would just die due to lack of O2.

Interesting discussion. Like I said before, I’m not slamming the Englander people, I’m just interested in the how’s and why’s of things.

TG