Another newbie looking for advice

[chrick]

Hi all,

I've been reading the forums diligently for a few days now, looking for opinions on various stoves to help me to make up my mind, and figured I'd post my situation and get any opinions any of you would like to provide.

First, my house and heating situation: house is ~1100sq. ft., insulation is retrofitted and is not horrible, but nothing like a modern house (house is ~110 year old fisherman's house on the North Atlantic). Heat is primarily wood, electric baseboard backup. We have been heating with an original VC Resolute (single front door, no glass) in somewhat run-down condition which is managing to keep the electric off ~60% of the time. We'd like it to manage a higher percentage - and we'd like to be warmer. When we get Nor'easters blowing at us straight off the water, our house gets very hard to heat! Oh - chimney is an external insulated, ~15' high with an uninsulated interior stove pipe exiting the wall 2' above the stove top to meet it. Draft has always been excellent.

We're partial to cast iron stoves for aesthetic reasons, top loaders for convenience and cleanliness (although perhaps modern front and side loaders are just as good - I haven't had one to know), and non-cat technology for some reason. That said, nothing is cast in stone.

We have access to reasonably priced Jotuls, Pacific Energys, and Napoleons, and to most other stoves at higher prices (there is an almost local hardware store that carries them - our local stove-only stores are ~20% more expensive for the same stove). My current favourite is the Jotul Castine, which I can get for $1948CDN, and I like the PE Alderlea T4 or T5 which would be a similar price. The Harman cast stove is higher priced for me, and the local places seem to know Harman pellet stoves and not much about the wood burners (although they can bring them in). The smaller Quadrafire cast stoves don't appeal to me as much as the Jotul and the PE, and the Isle Royale is probably too big. Don't know much about the Hearthstone cast models, and I don't think a soapstone stove would work for us - we often come back to a cold house and want it warmed up quickly!

I thought that I wanted a VC Encore non-cat last year, and came close to buying it (that was my last series of posts on this forum, actually) - looks like now that they've been on the market a bit longer I'm glad I didn't get that stove. For some reason I'm a bit wary of all the VCs anyway - despite the completely reasonable argument that a forum like this would show up defects in the most popular stove no matter how good it was, I can't help but feel that buying a stove that's had so much negative press recently is asking for it. And I actually like the looks of the Jotul better anyway...

So - what am I looking for? I guess some reassurance that the Jotul Castine is a good choice, that $1948CDN isn't too much to pay for the basic black model (we could always drive to Maine if the prices are significantly lower, we're in Halifax, NS), and any differing opinions and why.

Any input greatly appreciated!

Thanks,

Chris

 

[elkimmeg]

Negative press, name one other stove that burns in the .75 gph stratosphere? Don't bother doing the research, there are none I would call a stove burning that clean
not negative press. In fact they have raised the bar to clean burning efficiency no other stove has duplicated yet. What's to be negative about that?

I did a post on an inspection of an f400 Jotul very nice attractive stove. Love that black/ grey enamel. Should be with in the same heat range of your old stove

but shorter burn time as a Cat encore

 

[bruce]

top load, the only way with bottom ash door

 

[KeithO]

If you have not already done so, get a close up look and feel of the different stoves. I have to say that I was personally very impressed with the quality of workmanship on the Harmon cast iron stove. Everything fitted beautifully, the feel and engagement of the door latch felt perfect. The finish of the castings is superb (I worked for a company with their own foundry so I have a history).

The only thing that didn't work for me is the huge clearance requirement at the back of the stove with really no options for reducing it. I know Elks position on the VC stoves, but I certainly wasn't impressed with their castings in comparison to the Harmon. Both may be equally functional, but if you compare a Chevy to a BMW one could say the same thing.

I think the PE stoves are great, but I get the impression one loses a lot of the original utility with the "dressed up" cast iron plate versions compared to the original plate stoves. The plate stoves have huge ash drawers compared to the "ash chute" on the T4/T5's. When it gets down to daily operation, having a nice ash drawer really makes a difference between painless operation or frustration with ash spilt on the hearth pad yet again.

 

[elkimmeg]

I

have to say that I was personally very impressed with the quality of workmanship on the Harmon cast iron stove. Everything fitted beautifully, the feel and engagement of the door latch felt perfect. The finish of the castings is superb (I worked for a company with their own foundry so I have a history).

Better do some research as to where Harman is subcontracting it castings from now and also where they have their enameling from. The research results will be surprising to you

I'll give you a hint the company is located in USA and in New England .The same company suppling castings for Englander

 

[senorFrog]

So - what am I looking for? I guess some reassurance that the Jotul Castine is a good choice, that $1948CDN isn't too much to pay for the basic black model (we could always drive to Maine if the prices are significantly lower, we're in Halifax, NS), and any differing opinions and why.

Chris, take a look at the Jotul Oslo. The price point difference between the Oslo and the Castine is $200 USD. With the Oslo you'll bet a side door and a much arger firebox. Also, the secondary burn tubes seem better. I.e. Actual tubes vs a baffle. The Castine is supposed to be very finicky when it comes to draft. For some reason the Oslo doesn't have that reputation.

You mentioned your insulation was okay. If you don't have any or only minimal in the attic consider adding more or replacing. I can't believe what a difference that made in my house. Not only in the winter for heat, but for keeping the second floor cool in the summer too.

If I can answer any questions about the oslo, just let me know. Or search on my name for pics and my prev posts.

 

[webbie]

You can't go wrong with the Jotul. I can say without question that it is a stove I would have myself. In general these tend to have less problems and need fewer parts over a decade than some other models.

If those are your favorite, and they are world renown for quality and operation - then why look any further?

The other brands you mentioned are fine also.....

 

[pelletheat]

Better do some research as to where Harman is subcontracting it castings from now and also where they have their enameling from. The research results will be surprising to you

I'll give you a hint the company is located in USA and in New England .The same company suppling castings for Englander

Elk,

You are incorrect regarding the castings for Harman's wood stove. Please check with your sources.....

 

[begreen]

Welcome Chris, are you in Nova Scotia? As much as a big stove is tempting for long burns, I'd avoid getting too big a stove. 1100 sq. ft could get overwhelmed quite easily by a big stove. The T5 Alderlea or the Castine should work well for you. We have the Castine because of it's ability to handle larger wood, but if that's not an issue then the PE stoves are pretty sweet. If you want longer burns, I would consider having a Woodstock soapstone delivered to your door while they're still on sale.

(broken link removed to http://www.woodstove.com/pages/wood_stoves.html)

 

[BrotherBart]

Better do some research as to where Harman is subcontracting it castings from now and also where they have their enameling from. The research results will be surprising to you

I'll give you a hint the company is located in USA and in New England .The same company suppling castings for Englander

Elk,

You are incorrect regarding the castings for Harman's wood stove. Please check with your sources.....

From the Harman website:

"While other stove companies are busy outsourcing parts from China, Dane Harman is adamant
toward building USA-made products and keeping jobs for American workers."

What other U.S. foundry is Dane using?

 

[elkimmeg]

Better do some research as to where Harman is subcontracting it castings from now and also where they have their enameling from. The research results will be surprising to you

I'll give you a hint the company is located in USA and in New England .The same company suppling castings for Englander

Elk,

You are incorrect regarding the castings for Harman's wood stove. Please check with your sources.....

When Harman was building it new location part of the plans were to have a complete in house manufacturing. Since then Harman scaled back its project and had its contract expire with the European castings They entered into a contract with a casting firm in North America I know I saw the molds there It was confirmed by the head of operations Dale Trombly that in
fact They are now casting for Harman I f you want to confirm it please call 802-234-2300 ext 87

While doing the plant tour, both Goose an I were told they were doing Harman's enameling for the past 5 years, but one phone call can confirm what I said here

 

[KeithO]

Elk sent me a PM with the info regarding VC making the Harman castings. Frankly, I don't care who makes them, but my opinion was that the fit and finish on the Harmon was better than VC stoves that I have looked at. For all I know the Harmon I looked at could have been unsold for several years and might have European castings, who knows ?

I stress that this was my opinion. My suggestion is for any new buyer to look, touch and feel and make up their own mind. VC has developed somewhat of a bad reputation with some of the stove shops in Michigan and some have stopped stocking VC altogether. I will stress that I personally have never owned either a VC nor a Harmon, but have looked at both. I have found some pretty awful door latches on stoves costing $2k plus, which I think is pretty bad for such a simple mechanism on such an expensive appliance.

The quality of the castings on my St Croix Greenfield is pretty awful, although they are really only "decorative". The one thing that had some impact was a casting flash on the cast door to the corn hopper, which scraped on the sheet metal below. I ended up disassembling the hopper door and dressing the flash to produce a smooth rounded edge instead of the sharp projecting burr.

In todays manufacturing world, one can no longer simply assume that because something was good a few years ago it will still be so today. Suppliers are constantly being changed and corners cut to save a buck and improve profit or raise capacity (one of those "good" problems). Make sure you get a close look at this years model before making up your mind on the stove of your choice.

 

[webbie]

BTW, in terms of comparing stoves Grams per Hour, it just so happens that I recently spoke to a test lab (EPA setup) which has confirmed exactly what has been said here before. That there is NO WAY that the EPA figures relate to how the average person will be burning a stove in the field. Without going into details, it turns out that it is not even close - some stoves burn at 5 to 10x the epa numbers when fueled by normal human beings.

The EPA numbers for VC, for instance, are from their own lab (the stove manufacturer) with their own technicians stirring the coals and loading the dried pine firebrands.

Charlie Page (old stove guru) spoke to me last year about possibly establishing a test lab to debunk all these myths once and for all. I would love to do something like that, but it will cost a bunch. I would still do it - but the question is how we would make even a nickel with the results. It would be nice to get paid for our time and the stoves we have to buy!

Maybe someone here has a couple million and can spare 50-100K for the "consumer reports" lab for stoves! Or, leave us in your will if you have a big policy!

Just another one of my dreams. I would like nothing more than to look back at these posts and say "I told you so". Not to say which stoves are cleaner than others, just to NOT shop by EPA numbers....as it stands, I can only advise to shop by reputation, firebox size, support and style/budget.....as far as EPA, I would shop "pass/fail" only.

My challenge to wood stove makers who claim otherwise is this - pay for a few "witnessed" independent tests of your stoves and also a few from other manufacturers. Have it done at a test lab - not at the manufacturers facility. Use cordwood, and have some regular guys and gals fuel the stoves.

Let the data fall where it may - if the claims hold true, companies will have a marketing coup. If they don't - well, then everyone should admit to the customer (as test labs already have) NOT to shop by numbers.

 

[begreen]

Send it in to MythBusters!

BTW, we are all getting off topic and this has been discussed SOOO many times before....

 

[Gooserider]

I would tend to agree with Web, and say the question should boil down to "EPA II Certified" or not, and not look at the individual numbers for scores on the EPA test. There seems to be a huge "real world" difference between EPA and non-EPA, but considerably more question about both the actual real world performance of an EPA stove, and how the EPA numbers relate to the real world performance.

I've seen LOTS of people saying that they got less smoke and better wood consumption when going from a smoke dragon to an EPA stove as real world results. I have not seen any statements that I recall saying that switching brands / models of comparable EPA stoves led to either a change in observed smoke or wood consumption.

Therefore I say EPA should be a "pass-fail" test, and ignore the numbers. I also say ignore all performance related numbers from the MFGR except firebox size. Once that is figured out, the rest of the process is non-performance related factors - looks, reputation, price, etc.

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

The EPA numbers for VC, for instance, are from their own lab (the stove manufacturer) with their own technicians stirring the coals and loading the dried pine firebrands.

This is true but only a partiial explanation of what occurs during testing. This particular manufacturer is one of many that have testing and certification done in their own Burn Labs.

M No different the getting a safety inspection sticker for School bus companies A registry inspector visits the places the buses are parked and does the safety inspection The company the own 250 school busses does not drive each and every one to the local inspection garage. What I saying this is a common practice to have certification performed at the place of the manufacturer

this is not the big dig where the employed get to sign off on their own work. Certification is done under the a UL or EPA certified inspector he is present to monitor all testing results monitoring all computer read outs her is there to measure the particulates collected in the filters to determine GPH He is also there watching the loading th of the stove and regulating how the stove is operated including strict guidelines as to when the coals may be stirred. The guidelines and procedures are strictly adhered to and consistent with all manufactures stoves certification testing

Knowing the testing procedures This is the only controlled testing available for comparison. At one point the EPA used to verify efficiency ratings But that cost manufactures extra money and more testing. So most manufactures and The EPA use the pass /fail determination 63% efficiency for non Cat stoves and 72 % for cat stoves AS long as the stove test at or above that efficiency it passes.. From the particulates gathered in the filter during the testing the GPH numbers are established In the real world these efficiencies are not not met
However a recent horizontal burn technology employed by 3 manufactures have posted the cleanest stove ever tested So its not just one Manufacturer coming up with these very clean stoves But Harman Oak Wood a n Lopi Leyden as well. ITS the advance technology that is responsible for breaking the 1.0 GPH , Licensed by these manufactures.

IF Gph numbers are to be discounted, then please tell me why any stove has to be regulated to phrase. I or Phase II EPA standards governed by particulate matter

IF GPH number are insignificant then please offer alternative testing the EPA can certify. These number govern manufacturing laws of the nation and policy Yet some are telling us to ignore them. The same people that elected the representatives that passed laws the govern us by these numbers My suggestion to them IF these numbers are not truthfull and should be ignored then why have they not partitioned the EPA with alternative testing You don't like the way something is being done then don't reelect the people passing these laws or do something about it
write to The EPA explain that there procedures are flawed and offer an alternative.. Till something is better I support what has been certified tested and proven.

Can anyone prove the cleanest tested stove are not the cleanest operating stove if properly run? I know I can not say for sure. But like a home it all starts with a good foundation

Missed in all this, are the incredible GPH numbers posted by Englander NC 30 !.6 GPH in that size fire box.

 

[Cath]

...
In todays manufacturing world, one can no longer simply assume that because something was good a few years ago it will still be so today. Suppliers are constantly being changed and corners cut to save a buck and improve profit or raise capacity (one of those "good" problems). Make sure you get a close look at this years model before making up your mind on the stove of your choice.

KeithO,
Excellent point. Which is one reason you are arguably better off buying a used stove in good condition if you can get it at the right price.
~Cath

 

[carpniels]

Hi Guys,

To get back on subject. I had a Jotul Castine and it is a fine stove. Never gave me any problems. But look at the Alderlea. PE has an excellent reputation too. However, you do not get the EBT with the smaller Alderleas, only with the T6.

Good luck

Carpniels

 

[begreen]

I think Tom posted last year that the mid-sized PE stoves don't need EBT. EBT was added to the Summit to help it attain the long burns that the mid-sized stoves are capable of. I'll see if I can dig up the post.

Found it:
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/5679/

 

[senorFrog]

I've no beef with the castine, as I almost bought one. If you're that far north in a Nor'Easter, you might want the extra horsepower.

 

[chrick]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies! I was away for a bit, and didn't notice them piling up...

I ended up with a Castine, second hand from a craigslist posting in New Hampshire, found by James, a fellow lister whose Castine I missed by a few days. Installed it yesterday, first fire last night, and we're delighted! It lit easily, especially with the supposed no-no of opening the ash pan lid a crack for extra air. Burnt with good secondary burn from the ceiling tubes, and was a treat to look at. We left it for the night, turned down, but not all the way, and not full to the brim with wood, and in the morning were able to get a fire going off of the coals that were left (again that cracking of the ash pan lid is a godsend). Didn't really need a fire last night or this morning, but it didn't hurt, and we had to see what it looked like and how it worked - we love it!

Only thing left to see is if we can get as much heat out of it as we got out of the Resolute. It's clear that we'll burn less wood, but we were able to really abuse the Resolute (don't think I realized how much we abused it, actually) by putting about 6-8 logs in (top loading with no secondary air tubes taking up vertical space) and letting it rip. It was glowing from the back a little from time to time (seems to be the definition of overfiring), but it sure did crank out the heat. Fingers crossed that the higher efficiency and heat rating of the Castine will prove itself out when we need it. Really happy to be polluting less, regardless.

We are in Nova Scotia, in Portuguese Cove, outside Halifax. (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=e....532396&spn=0.011046,0.015643&z=16&iwloc=cent, if you're curious - we're the little house at the head of the skidway where the boats come out).

Again, thanks for all of the input, I feel certain that I've got a good stove, and look forward to being cleaner, seeing the fire, and enjoying the beauty of the stove in general. If anyone is interested in whether the Castine while not being overfired keeps up with an overfired Resolute, I'll be happy to report on it in February!

Cheers,

Chris

 

[BrotherBart]

Hi guys,

Thanks for all the replies! I was away for a bit, and didn't notice them piling up...

I ended up with a Castine, second hand from a craigslist posting in New Hampshire, found by James, a fellow lister whose Castine I missed by a few days. Installed it yesterday, first fire last night, and we're delighted! It lit easily, especially with the supposed no-no of opening the ash pan lid a crack for extra air. Burnt with good secondary burn from the ceiling tubes, and was a treat to look at. We left it for the night, turned down, but not all the way, and not full to the brim with wood, and in the morning were able to get a fire going off of the coals that were left (again that cracking of the ash pan lid is a godsend). Didn't really need a fire last night or this morning, but it didn't hurt, and we had to see what it looked like and how it worked - we love it!

Only thing left to see is if we can get as much heat out of it as we got out of the Resolute. It's clear that we'll burn less wood, but we were able to really abuse the Resolute (don't think I realized how much we abused it, actually) by putting about 6-8 logs in (top loading with no secondary air tubes taking up vertical space) and letting it rip. It was glowing from the back a little from time to time (seems to be the definition of overfiring), but it sure did crank out the heat. Fingers crossed that the higher efficiency and heat rating of the Castine will prove itself out when we need it. Really happy to be polluting less, regardless.

We are in Nova Scotia, in Portuguese Cove, outside Halifax. (http://maps.google.ca/maps?f=q&hl=e....532396&spn=0.011046,0.015643&z=16&iwloc=cent, if you're curious - we're the little house at the head of the skidway where the boats come out).

Again, thanks for all of the input, I feel certain that I've got a good stove, and look forward to being cleaner, seeing the fire, and enjoying the beauty of the stove in general. If anyone is interested in whether the Castine while not being overfired keeps up with an overfired Resolute, I'll be happy to report on it in February!

Cheers,

Chris

February nothing. We wanna see pics of that stove now.

 

[chrick]

Ok, a picture it is. The old stove is still sitting beside it, and the room isn't as tidy as I wish it would be for public viewing, but here's our new stove! (I'm attaching the image as an attachment since I don't know any other way - hopefully that works)

Cheers,

Chris

 

[elkimmeg]

I don't know but did that stove pass inspections?" I would never pass it on that existing connector pipe. That amount of rust shows metal fatigue

The clearance in front of the loading door appears to be less than 12".. I suspect the rear tile wall not sufficient for clearance issues
finally what about the r value of the tile the stove is sitting on

 

[stoveguy2esw]

I

have to say that I was personally very impressed with the quality of workmanship on the Harmon cast iron stove. Everything fitted beautifully, the feel and engagement of the door latch felt perfect. The finish of the castings is superb (I worked for a company with their own foundry so I have a history).

Better do some research as to where Harman is subcontracting it castings from now and also where they have their enameling from. The research results will be surprising to you

I'll give you a hint the company is located in USA and in New England .The same company suppling castings for Englander

the door castings ive seen recieved from them are suprisingly good too elk, really nice work.