Any advice would be Appreciated!

[bayboy]

Hi guys I am new to this forum I been doing a lot of reading here and find it an excellent place for information and help. I have boiler question! I have a New Yorker wf100( which isn't made anymore) Just wf 200. I have had it installed since 1989. It is hooked up exactly like you see in the manual to a existing New yorker oil boiler. Haven't used oil since 3 years I have electric heat installed also.Heres my question I want to get rid of oil all together and use my wf100 either standalone or I been reading with insulated storage tanks used with wood boilers.As it goes now the wood keeps hot water fed to the oil boiler and my heat comes from the oil boiler. I guess you can say my oil boiler is a bit of storage I guess. It holds 18 gallons and my wood boiler holds 33 gallons.There is circulator hauling water from the wf100 boiler to the oil boiler and theres another circulator on the oiler boiler that kicks in when the house is calling for heat.I only have a 32 doorway to the furnace room so a big big tank would be out of the question but maybe smaller ones in series.Maybe I am out to lunch on this all together can't seem to get any answers from local heating contractors around here.They harding know anything about gasification wood boilers for christ sakes.That might be another alternative I can think about but I know they are very costly.I know the boiler I have now is a wood monster.It loves wood .I burn mostly seasoned birch which I cut myself. Any advice would be great! Here's the link to the wf100 http://www.nythermal.com/wf_series?phpMyAdmin=4a6a574efd2bf60e5309614c9bb23fee

I uploaded the manual as well. In there is the way mine is hooked up using wood to oil method!

 

[flyingcow]

Ive got this storage tank. It's made for basements, not a big deal to assemble. check out the site and email the contact. Also you can build your own tank. Some of the guys here will chime in and point you in the right direction.

(broken link removed to http://www.americansolartechnics.com/heatbank820.html)

 

[maple1]

Sounds like the gasification knowledge base is as bad over there as it is over here on the mainland - like, there is none. I was totally on my own with mine - well, me & this place.

Some random thoughts:

You can improve your situation with storage. The gains with the boiler you have won't likely be overly dramatic though. I have no experience with the NY, but from the manual it doesn't look like it has very efficient heat transfer. Therefore the big appetite for wood. So I would think storage, but also think about replacing your boiler. With what likely depends on your budget. Gassifiers are the ticket, but they come at a price. If you had a different conventional boiler with better heat transfer, I would say just add storage to it. My parents have a Kerr with fire tubes, it transfers pretty good & I wouldn't hesitate adding storage to it if it were mine. You might find a decent used wood boiler over there that you could replace the NY with? Not sure about there, but here mini-splits are going in like crazy and there is some decent 'conventional' used stuff showing up on Kijiji. There are actually some guys selling wood (well, at least one that I know of) that are complaining about lost business because of mini-splits. As far as storage options, 110 & 330 gallon propane tanks are 30 inches in diameter. My 330s specd at that, I roughly measured them at 31. So that would be tight for your door. But you could chain together some 110s. As flyingcow mentioned, there are also unpressurized options that can be fit pretty well anywhere. They require a heat exchanger though. If you have electric heat also, and haven't used oil for 3 years, I would definitely get rid of the oil stuff - how do you heat your DHW?

 

[bayboy]

Thanks Guys for the info will have a look at it.I heat my DHW with coils in the wood furnace then out to the oil boiler with a coil then into a electric 40 gallon tank! I have it hooked up in series to take advantage of the wood boiler when it is going. I also have it hooked up parallel to bypass the two boilers and straight through the tank.While the boilers are going good I run through them in series by shutting off a 1/2 " ball valve running on the parallel part. Summer time I just shut down the series part with ball valve and run straight through the electric tank.Acually thats how I control my wf100 if its dumping into the mainloop of the house I run the hot water to cool down the boiler if I have put to much wood in with it being milder outside. I was looking at the Empyre Elite 100 but can't get any local HVac contractors around within 3 hrs from me know what I am talking about. Its so frustrating.My friend accross the street has the kerr tw2000 with a oil boiler install he burns more wood than me.He said also he is at is ends wit what to do with all the wood he burns and cuts. I also know other people who run the tw2000 and find them good.I guess it all depends on what size and how your house is insulated.I tried to tell him about gasification boiler better off if I told him the moon was made of cheese .lol.Thanks for the information and where did you get your gasification unit? Anymore info would be accepted grately!!

 

[maple1]

Mine came from Smokeless Heat in Pennsylvania (site advertiser).

Round dollars, it cost me about or I guess just under $2k Canadian extra to get it here, factoring in freight & duty, and the exchange rate which really hit me since my timing was real bad - but I had to do it when I did. Aside from those extra $$ hits, the whole transaction and delivery went really good.

Are any gassers being sold at all over there? I know that you can, or could, get Empyres in NS, and also I think Econoburns or at least in NB. But absolutely nobody on the local installer or supplier level knew anything about this stuff. Extra frustrating that there are 3 boiler manufacturers within an hour of me that are still in the dark ages and seem just as clueless - weird since one of them was on the cutting edge 30 or so years ago with the Jetstream.

On the wood, my house is 2700 sq.ft on two storeys, over an unfinished basement, not quite 20 years old (fairly good construction & insulation etc), on an exposed hilltop. I went from about 7.5 cord and almost a tank of oil per year with my old one, to about 6 cord and about $120 in electricity, to do all our heat & hot water. But the house is about 5°c degrees warmer overall, and I'm not the slave to it that I used to be. And I used to have to clean my chimney at least 3 times a year or risk a flue fire, now I'm starting into year 2 with not cleaning it at all - huge bonus for me since the cleaning had to be done two storeys up on a slippery steel roof.

 

[Quincy]

If your interested I have a line on a used 600 gallon knock down tank in excellent condition .The tank includes copper water to water heat exchangers for heating and DHW .The distance would be an issue.

 

[bayboy]

Maple 1 I don't know if anyone around my area use a gasification boiler. I know a lot guys now are going with outdoor wood boilers but they ain't gasification.I am surprised in this small town you are allowed to use them. Theres a guy down the road from me as a one and everyone on the block is going crazy with all the smoke comes out of it when it opens up. It is unreal like a big bonfire smoke he must be burning tires or something.I think it a wood doctor brand.I call all the HVAC people within 3 hrs drive from me and no one knows much about the gasification units. One guy today told me yah I heard of these but they ain't very efficient he said and then he tried to sell me a Kerr Tw2000 unit. I laugh at him on the phone. He asked why I was laughing. I said I am laughing at you saying about the gasification units not being efficient. This guy been in business for about 25 years also.What a Joke! I told him to get with the times and hung up..I am really interested in the Empyre 100 unit. I must start to do some calling around NS tomorrow.I found some online places selling for 8k. I know they are made in Manitoba, Canada I think stand to be corrected.I may try and find some HVAC places further from me in NL tomorrow in ST. Johns thats about 7 hrs away.I don't have full 8 ft basement so height would be a consideration thats why I was looking at the Empyre unit its shorter compared to some other units.Maybe you can help me more with this.

Quincy what kind of tank are you talking about? Do you have pictures? or a website..I say shipping would be outrageous.. .

 

[maple1]

If you google 'hearthenergy', that's the dealer in NS I talked to about the Empyre.

I'm thinking though that there must be an Empyre dealer somewhere on the rock - they're big into outdoor boilers too. If anything, you could email Profab (profab.org), and ask them (they make the Empyre).

Don't rule out Quincy's suggestion - a knock down tank & heat exchangers might ship pretty good from Ontario, shrink wrapped to one pallet (without seeing the tank). I'm not sure, but since the Empyre is an open boiler, you might be able to plumb it right to open storage, then use the exhangers to tie to your system with. Using an exchanger on both sides would be better though, for corrosion reasons.

There has to be a huge potential on this end of the country for someone to get into marketing & selling gassification & storage tech, given all the people who burn wood around here. But educating EVERYONE would be a huge task. We're so behind the times compared to Europe.

(I got my propane tanks in Moncton NB if that is at all any kind of help).

 

[willyswagon]

You are right Maple, educating the masses about these machines takes time, time costs money, then customers shop online.

The place I bought mine from have been in the business for over 35 years. They think it( gasifier and storage) is the future, but figure they will be retired before it ever becomes common for people to understand the system, let alone for it to become mainstream.

They have actually push propane, and mini splits to the people that say wood is to much work, because those same people don't want to carry bags of pellets, or clean the pellet stove until the auger jams solid.

HC Heating & Supplies in Kennetacook NS also handles the Empyre.
Econoburn is available in NB, I believe it is around Woodstock somewhere.

 

[bayboy]

Thanks Guys!

 

[bayboy]

So willyswagon i see in your signature you have a Empyre Elite 100! What do you think about this unit and where did your purchase it too? Nova Scotia...Did you install it yourself?

 

[willyswagon]

No I bought it here on PEI and had the dealer do the install. I have enough on my plate everyday without adding a boiler install to the list.

Also know as "There's Booze to be made"!

So far I'm very happy with the unit. It doesn't work like a standard boiler, and that is fine with me. I like twicking stuff any way.

Econoburn is at Valley Sales

http://www.valleysales.ca/services/

 

[bayboy]

Thanks! Lol.. I just visited your website. Do you sell in Newfoundland? Looks like great stuff.. I better stick to the boiler topics or I will be told .lol . have a good night off to bed now..

 

[willyswagon]

Nope, we are only available on "The Island" for now.

 

[bayboy]

Guys I am planning on taking out the oiler boiler now.Going to give the wf100 a shot as a standalone heres what the manufacturer says.
"It is strongly recommended when installing a wood boiler as a single unit a recirculating line be installed from the return
to the supply of the boiler, as a wood burning unit does not recover cold water return as quickly as an oil burning unit"

Question is that where would I install the recirculating line? I know it is between the supply and return but where before circulator or after. What size? They don't say manual one or mixing.Pretty vague on instruction. Its on Page 6 and diagram 6 of this pdf link..http://www.nythermal.com/uploads/WF MANUAL 2011-10-14.pdf

What would you guys reccomend for a valve for recirculating?

 

[Clarkbug]

What would you guys reccomend for a valve for recirculating?

I have a loading valve, which combines a pump, thermal diverting valve, check valve, and shutoffs in one expensive, but compact package. Works well for me, since its a put it in and forget it.

(broken link removed to http://www.lkarmatur.se/Documents/LK%20Armatur/Produktkatalog/Komponenter%20f%C3%B6r%20v%C3%A4rmesystem/One%20Stop%20ENG%20L%C3%A5guppl%C3%B6st.pdf)

Its on page 10 of that link.

If you check out page 12, you can see one of the "thermic loading valves" that are also commonly used, and how they recommend you install it.

In your case, I would pipe a full size bypass from the outlet of the boiler, back over to the thermic valve, which would be ahead of the pump.

 

[bayboy]

I live in NL, Canada would you know any online places who sell these products and ship to canada? Thanks for the response..

 

[Clarkbug]

Sorry, Im not sure who does and doesnt ship to Canada. I got my loading valve from Smokeless Heat (where I got my boiler). Maple1 got his boiler from the same place, but I dont know if he had to go pick it up or it was shipped up there for him, but that could be an option.

 

[bayboy]

Thanks! I will check out those places..

 

[maple1]

I'm sure Smokeless Heat would ship you one, it might mail decent. Likely other site vendors could too. Not sure what the shipping would be though, the price we pay for living on the right side of the border.

 

[bayboy]

Its ridiculous what we pay here in Canada. I dunno where the free trade agreement with USA went to.I am trying to figure out which valve would do the job. I think I am going with a manual one for now. I am going to give the wf100 a shot as standalone for the winter.The spec says it needs a returning line from supply and return. I know there is a bunch of names out there for mixing valves but not sure the better one to buy that will meet my needs. I don't want to get into to much money because this may not work out for me. I managed to track down Empyre dealer on the rock 4 hrs from me.he just finished installing one 2 weeks ago the 100 model.All said and done he estimated 20.000 installed.The unit itself is just about 9000.00.. I may look at it for next year its a bit late now to get into the changeover with winter approaching even though I have electric heat. I am busy at work also. I can manage to take out the oil fired boiler and hook up the wf100 standalone within a timely manner.

maybe you can help me with this? I don't want something that I have to also have to go adjusting all the time. Thanks!!

 

[bayboy]

I can't get the pdf files to load on Smokeless heats website. I was looking at the valves and the boiler you have. How high is you boiler? I have a low boiler room.Do you need to use the legs on this boiler?

 

[willyswagon]

Its ridiculous what we pay here in Canada. I managed to track down Empyre dealer on the rock 4 hrs from me.he just finished installing one 2 weeks ago the 100 model.All said and done he estimated 20.000 installed.The unit itself is just about 9000.00..

WOW
I had mine bought and installed for a hair more than half of that. Mine had to be plumbed 50' to my oil boiler, and needed a flue put in.

He is $1500 high on the retail price for the boiler( which should be about $7500), and depending on what you need for an install..... WOW, JUST WOW!!

He must figure he has ya by the curly ones because it is so close to the heating season.

For that kind of $$ I'd get a Garn.

 

[bayboy]

Exactly I didn't fall for it. I could have had one come from Nova Scotia cheaper 7850.00. Less 1000.00 for earlier winter special till end of November. The guy in Newfoundland never mentioned that.Outdoor one was 8500.00 less 1000.00. I had to get a mixing valve with built in calculator for protection for cold water return 589.00. The pipe for outdoor one to lead to the house was 13.50 a foot if I went with a outdoor one. Newfoundland the guy said 35 bucks a foot.Shipping to newfoundland from nova scotia on Day and ross would be 595.00.

The contractors here in Newfoundland are crazy with prices. I am glad that I can do my own work I pity the people that has to get them people to do work. I know my boilers better than I know my wife . LOL

 

[bayboy]

I called profab in Manitoba they gave me a name in NS I think the name was HC heating 902 369 2999 guys name was Paul . I will check out the place you got yours tommorow and see the price they will give me. I have a low furnace room I was also looking at the Varmebaronen one UB 40 sold by smokeless heat. Can't seem to view the pdf files on his website to see the dimensions.They also sell low storage tanks under six feet.