Any similar liners like Magnaflex Insul-flex preinsulated liner?

[wahoowad]

Pulling it up from the bottom remains an option, but right now it looks like more effort to do that given the furniture I would have to move as well as moving my woodstove. I'll try that if doing it from the top isn't going to work. Another concern with feeding it up from the bottom is that I have a fixed amount of space to work with that will limit the amount of bend needed to feed it up.

Can the liner support it's own weight with a bend in it? It won't collapse?

 

[wahoowad]

Yes, I can walk along the ridge line. I have to straddle the roof because of the angle but I've done that

 

[bholler]

It should be able to support its own weight you might get some dents on the outer sleeve but it shouldn't hurt the inner liner

 

[BrotherBart]

Build ya a platform that straddles the roof ridge.

 

[bholler]

Yes bb i agree that roof is not that tall but beleive me it can still hurt allot to come off a single story roof at the least get a harness the rental shops here have them.

 

[wahoowad]

I tried to get the liner installed yesterday but could not get the end positioned to enter the top of the chimney. I had a helper supporting the liner from below and could physically get it up to the roof peak, but it wasn't flexible enough for me to get a sufficient bend to get it started. I wasn't even close.

I looked around for ways to use a pulley to get it up but have no trees or anything close enough to do that. Renting a lift is an option although may not have room for it to drive around that end of the house to get in position.

I went ahead and pulled the entire liner up onto the roof, then 'staged' it on an adjacent roof that is almost flat. You can see that section of roof on the far right. I made another attempt to insert the liner by letting the far end lay on that flat roof but getting a bend started at the insertion wants to pull it off the roof and then the weight changes things and I can't handle it sufficiently. An uninsulated liner would probably be done by now but this doublewrapped thing is a different animal. A platform might help but I can tell what I need more is an able-bodied person up there with me. But none of my friends are agile enough or comfortable enough to work on the roof like I am so not sure my next move. Probably need to find a young guy who works as a roofer or chimney sweep and pay him well for a couple hours work.

 

[bholler]

You need to build a platform

 

[wahoowad]

Yeah, I'm starting to realize I won't get it in without some additional height/leverage. An able-bodied helper on that roof line with me will help stabilizer the other end but getting that initial bend while still being close enough to the chimney is the biggest challenge.

I'm contemplating my options ...

(1) easiest: cut the outer liner off and see if I can get it to bend easier. May or may not require a helper. Videos online show people handling a single wall flex liner much, much easier this way.

(2) rent some kind of smaller boom/scissor truck for a few hours

(3) build a platform. Would rather rent a scissor lift than buy the materials and time and effort to get a proper platform established up there
​

My chimney has never had much issue with draft so am considering option 1. This thing should be easier to handle. I may still be able to leave the insulation on given how it is designed. Or could remove the bottom half of the outer liner (first 10') to get it starter. I hate to do this given my desire to have it fully insulated but trying to be practical given the situation.

 

[bholler]

dont take off the insulation it will be worth it to rent the lift

 

[brenndatomu]

dont take off the insulation it will be worth it to rent the lift

I agree, rent the lift. Have you made any other attempts since the weekend?
Just an idea, maybe start a thread asking if any Hearth members in your neck of the woods would be willing to come lend a hand for a couple hours.

 

[BrotherBart]

Stop by a roofing company and ask them if one of their people wants a couple of hours work on the side. Roofer on the ladder, you straddle the roof peak.
Badda bing, badda boom.

 

[bholler]

I would still not try muscling that in while straddling the peak to much of a chance for a big problem. It is allot harder than it looks sometimes

 

[wahoowad]

I went by an equipment rental place but none of their lifts will work. The wheel base on everything was too wide to fit around the narrow section of yard leading to the chimney area. A scissor lift was the right size but it only comes with wheels designed for finished surfaces like concrete.

I got a lead on a couple chimney guys and hopefully one will want a side job to help me get this beast installed. I went back up on my roof yesterday (I left it up there) to see how flexible the liner is if I really manhandle it. That thing barely has any bend in it unless you are bending it from the middle. I am really looking forward to seeing a pro get it in there and can't wait to shove a wad of cash in his hand at the end.

Plenty of videos of people slipping a single wall in, but I've yet to google up a video of someone installing one of these prewrapped double-wall liners...

 

[wahoowad]

I found a couple real chimney guys who we're wiling to do a side job. They put the liner down the chimney 3 minutes after they reached the roof. I should be able to close it all up tomorrow.

I recall a thread about sealing the exposed insulation at the end of the liner attached up top. What's an appropriate way to do that? I have a hi-temp caulk rated for something like 1300 F. Should I smear it over the insulation to seal it up? Perhaps a different higher temp product?

 

[bholler]

I recall a thread about sealing the exposed insulation at the end of the liner attached up top. What's an appropriate way to do that? I have a hi-temp caulk rated for something like 1300 F. Should I smear it over the insulation to seal it up? Perhaps a different higher temp product?

it should have come with a top plate and storm collar of some sort to seal the top but yeah you need to seal that insulation somehow

 

[wahoowad]

Thanks for all the help, guys! I pretty much have everything installed and back together and thought I'd post a few snaps of the way I ended up doing it.

No photos of the 2 chimney guys - although they did it exactly like you would imagine. One guy supporting on end, one guy holding the other end and just a little muscle to make it go where it needed. It went down the prefab 8" pipe easy. I had cut 18" of the protective outer liner off to get it past my small offset at the bottom which left it hanging right where I needed to terminate into the cap.

I had intended to use a blockoff plate to support it as it entered my firebox. Unfortunately the flu hole was in the very back of the firebox with no space whatsoever for the perimeter of the plate. I could have trimmed it down significantly but elected not too. The liner was already snug in the offset and supporting it pretty good so I just stuffed some excess insulation from the liner up there to seal it. I can always go back and add the block off plate if I get it modified.

I was able to reuse my existing chimney cap to support the liner and upper block off plate. This allowed me to use the existing mounting method of the tabs that keeps the blockoff plate suspended over the prefab pipes so they can ventilate (some have mentioned that is needed). I trimmed off the top and screen and mounted the blockoff plate to it with sheetmetal screws and hi-temp sealant underneath.

Here is the top. I smeared some hi-temp sealant over the exposed insulation to weatherproof it.

Finished cap installation. Nothing pretty but hopefully effective.

 

[bholler]

That insulation needs to be covered somehow. I honestly think they gave you the wrong size top plate and cap all of the set ups i saw you cut the outer layer and insulation back below the top plate. The way it is there is nothing to keep dirt out of that insulation.

 

[wahoowad]

That insulation needs to be covered somehow.

It is, I used a sealant and goobered it up all over it.

I didn't see a need to trim back the outer layer....???

 

[bholler]

I honestly don't think smearing it with caulk is good enough If you get creosote or water in that insulation it will not be good and that silicone will not hold up for more than a couple years.

 

[wahoowad]

Even if I cut the outer liner back it would still be exposed, just lower. It's going to take some near-sideways water to get at it, although I am sure that is going to happen frequently over the years. That water would still come under the cap and reach the insulation even if it was cut below the top plate. The top plate does not seal off weather from reaching the insulation, it only provides the way for the clamping band to tighten around the liner.

I'll keep an eye on it when I clean each year. I intentionally left it a few inches longer than needed in case there was a need to cut it shorter at a later date. I would have preferred to use some type of aluminum tape to seal it but didn't know of any rated for high temp usage.

 

[bholler]

If it was the right size the top plate would clamp onto the inner liner and the inner would be below it keeping stuff out of the insulation.

 

[brenndatomu]

I would have preferred to use some type of aluminum tape to seal it but didn't know of any rated for high temp usage.

I don't know what it is "rated" for but I think regular ole high temp aluminum duct tape would seal that up fine. I have a piece over a small hole in my stove pipe that I drilled to check draft reading, it sees a much higher temp than yours would (unless you have a chimney fire) and it is fine for a couple years now. I'd go up and seal that gap up with some tape too. Once that insulation gets wet down a ways it will be working against you as far as maintaining flue temp. Not to mention the fire hazard of creosote running down in there.
It looks like your top plate is a 7". IIRC, I think mine came with a 6" and I had to cut the outer layers back to slide the top plate down over the liner.

 

[bholler]

It looks like your top plate is a 7". IIRC, I think mine came with a 6" and I had to cut the outer layers back to slide the top plate down over the liner

that was exactly what i was thinking

 

[wahoowad]

A little follow-up after burning with this new liner for several months. I finally got in last Fall and it has been working fine all season long.

It has definitely improved my draft, but probably too much. I still get a moderate amount of active flames even when I have the Jotul F3 air control shut all the way. I always knew it let in air but it burns the wood down faster than I would like. I'd say I lost about 30 minutes of cycle time which is noticeable with the smaller firebox on the F3. It does run a little hotter though. The temps stay up longer from the more active burning, but then drop quicker and I'm left with less coals. At times this is good and at other times not so good.

I don't really want to put an extra damper in my horizontal chimney pipe as that would give an additional air control and probably drive me nuts trying to synchronize both the F3 and damper settings... Anything else I can do? Overall I feel better about being safer with the liner in but the faster burn in the smallish F3 is a challenge.

 

[brenndatomu]

I have the same issue. I used some aluminum foil to plug off one of the secondary air holes and some hi temp aluminum tape to cover half the primary air hole on my Defender to slow 'er down. It is a bit a screwing around though to take the foil out, bring 'er up to temp, bring 'er back down to "cruise" mode and then re-install the foil.
A key damper in the pipe would be the best/easiest IMO. I plan on installing one in mine over the summer so that I can open all the holes back up. It should be pretty easy to run, open the damper, load the wood and fire the stove as per normal, once it is in "cruise" mode, then close the the damper down until you have those sustained slow rolling secondary flames. May hafta tweak the damper a bit until you get used to your normal setting.