Ashley (Tractor Supply) EPA indoor furnace info?

[Jdesmaris]

I am in the process of putting a new wood furnace down my basement. This in a place where there is no way I can clean the chimney during the winter. I put a SS liner in a huge brick chimney and the only way to clean it is by climbing on a steep roof. 24 feet of chimney. So - I was hoping to find the cleanest burning indoor furnace I could get my hands on. I had been hoping for an EPA Caddy from Quebec but could not find one at a reasonable price.

Here is my dilemma (at least in my mind). I bought a new "Hot Blast" conventional hot-air furnace from Tractor Supply last fall and was just getting ready to install it. NOT an EPA furnace. Now - our local Tractor Supply got in stock one EPA rated furnace. They show it as a US Stove model CF700M. It appears in other places as an Ashley AF700. EPA rated at 83% eff. 140K BTUs max. $1600 price tag and that is only $200 more then I paid for the other non-EPA furnace. I am very tempted to buy it. The manager of the store says it may be a one-time thing and they not be getting any more of these. I can't find anyone on the Net that has actually used one of these furnaces. I like to hear some actual owner input.

I've been heating with wood for 50 years. I will say that when I changed from a 70s "air tight" stove to a EPA rated stove (Lopi and a Hearthstone) - the difference was amazing. Harder to get a raging fire, but the EPA stoves burn much cleaner when turned down. I am hoping I will see the same difference with this EPA rated furnace. I suspect any furnace can burn clean when run at high-heat. The problem is during not-so-cold days and lower heat settings. Anybody here ever seen one of these EPA furnaces in actual use?

 

[brenndatomu]

Good call on not using the HotBlast (or the WoodBlast as it is known by many owners due to its healthy appetite)
Most owners will tell you they get short burn times and/or dirty chimneys from the HB...there are a few people out there that like 'em, but I think they just don't know how much better a EPA style furnace would be.
Anyways, I doubt you'll find any experienced AF700 owners out there due to it only being out less than a year...I've not heard of any, and I'm on here and 2 other wood burning forums all the time.
I see you are in N. Michigan...do you have a Menards around? Menards is a distributor for the Drolet Tundra (which is a nice clean burning EPA style furnace) and has them on sale for $1169 if you can find a store that still has one. (that is about $500 off the normal price) Looks like many stores around here still have their display model.
They came out with these in 2012 and they had a bumpy start but they have things sorted out now I believe (I have a 2012 model myself)
Drolet has discontinued the original Tundra for the new Tundra II that is just coming out now...it is basically the same furnace only with a plenum on it instead of (2) 8" pipes for the hot air connection. That and a few manufacturing changes in the way the front of the firebox is assembled, also the TII has a variable speed blower too.
For the price I would still consider buying a T1 though...Drolet will send you any updates it may need (free) and if it would happen to have a major failure (crack) for most people they just refund your money allowing you to keep the furnace, which is still completely usable with a minor mod or a weld repair (I bought mine from the original owner post warranty)
If you have a little extra time on your hands you can read all about Tundra here https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/everything-drolet-tundra-heatmax.140788/ or just read the last 10-15 pages for the cliff notes version.

My 2 cents...

 

[Jdesmaris]

I see you are in N. Michigan...do you have a Menards around? Menards is a distributor for the Drolet Tundra (which is a nice clean burning EPA style furnace) and has them on sale for $1169 if you can find a store that still has one. (that is about $500 off the normal price) Looks like many stores around here still have their display model.

Menards is a 280 mile round-trip from where I am. That store, in Traverse City, does not have the Drolet Tundra in stock and says it cannot be ordered (discontinued). I went to Tractor Supply yesterday that had just one of the Ashley (or US Stove) EPA furnaces in stock . I looked it over and it looks well built. I don't know how different one EPA furnace or stove can look from another. This CF700M EPA furnace looks inside just like my Hearthstone woodstove. Just bigger. Firebox is completely lined with firebrick including the top, and it has the air pipes on top. So who knows? I guess I will, because I bought it for $1599. Menards says they can order me the same furance and it would be $150 cheaper with a mail-in rebate. But they do NOT have it in stock and it would be near 300 miles of driving. So, I bought this one and it is a done-deal. I am anxious to hook it up and see how it does.

 

[brenndatomu]

Well let us know how it works out for you then, you'll have the first AF700 feedback on Hearth as far as I know...

 

[Jdesmaris]

 

[brenndatomu]

Wow, that was fast, you don't mess around do ya?
That unit looks VERY similar to the Tundra...it will be interesting to hear your results

 

[brenndatomu]

Just looking at the wiring diagram...this unit is manual damper huh? I assumed it would have a motorized damper and could be wired to the T-stat...but you know what they say about that word assume...

 

[brenndatomu]

Looks like you got a good deal, Home Depot has 'em at over $2600!

 

[blades]

front of unit says Clayton that has been around awhile at least the name any way. Did you return the HotXXXXX? Lookin at the inside is exactly what some enterprising souls did to there hot blast units a few years back. That sir is also a strictly wood unit ( that's a good thing). Most of the hot blast series were wood /coal- good with coal -lousy with wood. I like it so far, which is really going out on a limb for me with US Stove Co. ( got a hotxxxxx sitting in the basement got to find a home for it and maybe even get a penny or two to boot.)

 

[Bootstrap]

I see you got your furnace but I'll mention anyways. You might not have been happy with the Hot blast. First off, cheaper coal/wood combo stoves are not good at burning either fuel. A guy I know has two of those things. He's a head strong older man, early 70's. So I don't bother telling him that he'd cut down wood usage by quite a bit by even switching to the stove I have, Englander 28-3500. Granted its not a EPA cert furnace, but its built a lot stronger, more fire brick and because of that its more efficient.

 

[ColCat]

I originally posted this in another thread.

I purchased the Tractor Supply version of this stove. It's model number is CF700M and it is called the Clayton (sells for $1,300 which is considerably cheaper than the Ashley). I now have about 7 burns in it.

I like the furnace, but had to make modifications to it. I replaced a US Stove Hotblast with this stove, so will make comparisons between the Hotblast and the Clayton.

The specs on the Clayton says it will handle 24 inch logs--it is more like 22 inches for a comfortable fit.

The two 8 inch hot air vents are closer together than the Hotblast, so I had to make modify where they are attached to the plenum.

There is no air intake bimetal thermostat on the Clayton as there is on the Hotblast. Instead, there is a hinged louver. I think the reason is that, to meet EPA specs, you can't really starve the stove of air. There is a screw adjustment to this louver, but there is enough resistance on the hinge that I can just open and close it by hand (using gloves). I put a wood stove thermometer on the exhaust stovepipe. Even with the louver all the way open, the stove doesn't get that hot as the thermometer barely entered the normal range, so it seems safe to use even if kept all the way open. I can't really tell a lot of difference between when the louver is all the way open or closed. When starting the fire, however, you will want to open the louver all the way.

I fired up the furnace outside first. This burned off the paint and other fumes before bringing it inside. It would get pretty nasty if you brought it inside for the first burn. The user manual recommends this.

Once I got the stove installed inside, I installed the fan motors and fired it up. There is a thermodisk attached to the back of the stove that activates the fans at a certain temperature and then turns the fans off at a lower temperature. This the same arrangement as the Hotblast. With the Clayton, the thermodisk kept cycling on and off. Apparently the cool air being sucked into the fans cools down the thermodisk enough to shut off the electrical connection. I called tech support and they said the fan needs to be enclosed so it is drawing hot air off the stove. There is no reference to this in the user manual. I welded up a frame which encloses the back and top of the stove. I also encased a 10" by 2' galvanized piece of duct around the stovepipe to suck hot air coming off the exhaust stovepipe down into the fans. It works great. The thermodisk happily keeps the fans running. It also releases much less heat into the room where my furnace is located than my Hotblast. I also installed a frame for a 20" by 24" pleated furnace filter into the enclosed frame. It sends much hotter air into my plenum than the Hotblast did. My guess is that it heats up my living air about 30% faster than the Hotblast.

As far as efficiency goes, I'm probably using half the wood for an equivalent burn. I would be careful opening the door to add wood when the stove is at full burn. (I could do this with the Hotblast) When I tried this, the flame came out the opening. However, there is no problem if I let it die down to coal before opening the doors.

Would I buy it again? Yes. I think it is a great furnace and a definite upgrade from the Hotblast.

 

[maple1]

Do you mean the distribution fan? Is supposed to draw in hot air?

I'm not a hot air furnace guy, so might be off base - but that doesn't sound right to me.

 

[Jdesmaris]

Col Cat- thanks for the info. So are I love mine. It does all I hoped it would. Burns much more efficiently than any conventional wood furnace I've had before. One slight issue. I am trying to find a cold-air filter box to fit it. I have the kit they sell for the Hot Blast but it looks as though it will not fit this EPA model. I called the factory for info and never got a reply.

 

[ColCat]

Do you mean the distribution fan? Is supposed to draw in hot air?

I'm not a hot air furnace guy, so might be off base - but that doesn't sound right to me.

I meant to say that the baffel frame draws air from the outside of the top and back of the stove as well as around the exhast stovepipe. This preheats the air going into the fans. The air then circulates through the internal furnace baffles before going up the dual 8" furnace ducts. When the thermodisk was cycling, The fans were just taking in the air from the floor around the fans.

 

[maple1]

Ya, that doesn't sound right to me - although pulling air off the outside of the furnace isn't sounding quite as bad as what I thought you were saying the first time. I'm thinking the blower should be pulling in air that's no warmer than room temp.

Hopefully others more hands-on with hot air furnaces will jump in.

 

[DeanH]

I originally posted this in another thread.

Once I got the stove installed inside, I installed the fan motors and fired it up. There is a thermodisk attached to the back of the stove that activates the fans at a certain temperature and then turns the fans off at a lower temperature. This the same arrangement as the Hotblast. With the Clayton, the thermodisk kept cycling on and off. Apparently the cool air being sucked into the fans cools down the thermodisk enough to shut off the electrical connection. I called tech support and they said the fan needs to be enclosed so it is drawing hot air off the stove. There is no reference to this in the user manual. I welded up a frame which encloses the back and top of the stove. I also encased a 10" by 2' galvanized piece of duct around the stovepipe to suck hot air coming off the exhaust stovepipe down into the fans. It works great. The thermodisk happily keeps the fans running. It also releases much less heat into the room where my furnace is located than my Hotblast. I also installed a frame for a 20" by 24" pleated furnace filter into the enclosed frame. It sends much hotter air into my plenum than the Hotblast did. My guess is that it heats up my living air about 30% faster than the Hotblast.

Hi ColCat, I just got my Clayton going this past December and am having major regrets as I can't seem to get it working very good. My issues - burns a load in under 2hours and produces little heat even tho it's an inferno in the fire box. There is so much air coming in from all the inlets and they recommend NOT putting a damper on the flue to slow the burn (they claim 8-10 hours). I have an Englander Stove in my wood shop going on 19 years. It cranks in comparison. The big difference I see between these 2 stoves are the Clayton has 2 rows of fire brick up the inside of the fire box where the Englander only has 1. Another thing the Clayton also has an insulating blanket behind the fire brick. Maybe I'm missing something, but don't you WANT heat to get through? I went as far as to hot wire the blowers to run without the thermodisc Even with that and a hot fire, the internal airspace within the cabinet doesn't seem to be able to get hot and stay hot. My other stove gets twice as hot and runs continuously with a good fire. I can also choke it down to slow the burn while keeping it in the optimum heat range. The only fix I can see is to remove the 2nd layer of fire brick and trim off the insulating blanket behind them. The outside surface of the fire box is what transfers the heat through the cabinet and out the duct. Can you post a few pics of your enclosure around the blowers? I need to get the cold air/filter box made and I'd like to see how you made yours.

 

[brenndatomu]

The only fix I can see is to remove the 2nd layer of fire brick and trim off the insulating blanket behind them. The outside surface of the fire box is what transfers the heat through the cabinet and out the duct

Don't do that...it won't burn worth a darn then....BTDT. The heat exchanger tubes are mainly responsible for transfer of the heat to the air...not so much the firebox.
If you are burning through a load in 2 hours you need to close the damper down...these newer stoves don't put heat to the house well running wide open...open damper is mainly for charring the wood to get the secondary burn going...if you cannot get sustained secondarys after the firebox is up to temp then its very likely your wood is not dry enough...these thing HATE wet wood!
Have you tested your draft? If it is too high (or low) the stove will not perform well either...-0.04" to -0.06" WC would be a good range to run in...that's a pretty common spec for most furnaces.

 

[DeanH]

Thanks for the speedy reply B. My wood is a year dry and covered. This furnace has the following - 2) 1''X1 1/4'' steel channel openings on either side of the ash bin leading up and into the secondary air tubes inside the fire box, a small 3/8''hole just below the feed door (always open), another small hole centered in the back of the fire box blowing an air jet forward and the louvered air damper above the door has a small hole cut in the center (so even closed completely it's still has an opening). On top of all that, when the blowers run, they also pump air through the ash drawer up past the plug you take out to empty ashes into it. So all these air intakes burn the wood like a forge! Heck, even wet wood would blow through it with all that air injection! What I've done so far is fabbed adjustable steel plates to close down the channel holes, plugged the hole below the door, bent a small piece of sheet metal to slide over the hole in the air damper above it and put a damper in the flue. My insulated double wall flue is 35'. This is all new this December. The problem with all these air adjustments is now it still burns wood in 2 hours but the temps fall even more. It's almost like the flames have to be raging enough to make their way into those secondary tubes for it to make decent heat but then a load lasts 1 hour. . I'm calling tech tmrw and see if they have any reps to send out. I took a year researching the best stove for my money and by the specs, this one should rock so I can't figure where I'm going wrong? I'm off to load er again, make some dinner and have a few rum and Verners...

 

[brenndatomu]

This furnace has the following - 2) 1''X1 1/4'' steel channel openings on either side of the ash bin leading up and into the secondary air tubes inside the fire box, a small 3/8''hole just below the feed door (always open), another small hole centered in the back of the fire box blowing an air jet forward and the louvered air damper above the door has a small hole cut in the center (so even closed completely it's still has an opening). On top of all that, when the blowers run, they also pump air through the ash drawer up past the plug you take out to empty ashes into it

Yup, almost identical to the Drolet Tundra...the more I look at OPs pics, the more I can't believe how similar they are...USSC should be ashamed of themselves...such a blatant copy...only difference I see it no motorized damper and twin blowers instead of one.

On top of all that, when the blowers run, they also pump air through the ash drawer up past the plug you take out to empty ashes into it

Yeah, that's not supposed to happen...get that plug seated better. And that is a terrible design...Drolet did the same on the Tundra the first year...that ended up in a "recall"...very dangerous to blow the "house air" across the ash pan that very well may have CO producing coals in it.

My insulated double wall flue is 35'.

You sir have high draft! I almost guarantee it.
You need to get a manometer and get a reading...the Dwyer Mark II model 25 is cheap and simple...works great...just leave it hooked up full time, its a great tool too have. Now, once you get your manometer and it shows you 0.08" and higher, you will need to put a damper in the stove pipe...I wouldn't do it without a manometer though...you have no way to tell where you are at and too low could prove deadly. You will have two options...a barometric damper, or a manual damper...this a manual furnace, I'd do a manual pipe damper...you don't really have a choice, you gotta get that draft under control.
And you will need to uncover those air intakes you covered...it will work just fine OEM with the correct draft.

My wood is a year dry and covered

Unless it is a fairly softwood, that is very likely not enough. Many woods need 2 years CSS to be dry, Oak and a few others need 3 years. And by covered I hope you mean top covered only...anything more than that will cause you problems

 

[maple1]

^Everything he said.

 

[laynes69]

Yep, Bren hit it on the head. The design is very similar, and remember no matter what, when the unit is shut down, it's far from an airtight. You cannot exchange heat with draft that high. The firebox is larger than mine, and I can see quite a few hours of secondaries with good heat. Get that draft slowed down, and it will improve. There's a big part of me that thinks companies are pushing extra air trying to burn clean, with no regards to efficiency. It shows in the epa tests. The only furnaces that show significant efficiency are the Caddy and the Kuuma. With the furnace being manual operation, you can step back the dampers sooner. You don't want to run too high too fast or it will burn up quickly.

 

[JRHAWK9]

I was hoping to find the cleanest burning indoor furnace I could get my hands on.

What I want to know is how the heck he came up with deciding on this furnace if the above statement was his outright goal. There is only ONE clear cut choice to satisfy his above statement. Possibly two (Caddy) if you are willing to settle being a bit more "dirty" than the cleanest. The rest are not even in the same ballpark and should not even have been in his list of choices.

 

[maple1]

What I want to know is how the heck he came up with deciding on this furnace if the above statement was his outright goal. There is only ONE clear cut choice to satisfy his above statement. Possibly two (Caddy) if you are willing to settle being a bit more "dirty" than the cleanest. The rest are not even in the same ballpark and should not even have been in his list of choices.

Maybe that should have read '...could READILY get my hands on.'

Just a guess...

 

[DeanH]

Thanks to all for so much help! But to repeat (and fill in the gaps), I got a free moisture meter with the stove and my wood is dry. It's all hardwoods. I also put a flue damper in. I can slow the burn down but then stack temp is too low into creosote range. Also, as I said before, I let this thing run per manufacturers instructions. And even with a hot fire, it does not make decent heat whether I leave the thermodisc hooked up to cycle or hot wire to run continuously. It's almost like up in the secondary burn chamber, they accidentally stuffed it with insulation! Wish you guys were close enough to commiserate my stove woes over a case(s) of beer... I think I need a sales rep out here to see what's what. Maybe I got a lemon?

 

[maple1]

There could be some iffy-ness in both your MC measuring, and stack temp guaging.

A year is borderline usually for seasoning hardwoods, and that's with optimal drying. I'm getting to the 3 year seasoned with hard maple now (that was dead & down before I got to it). And seeing now that this is the way it should really burn. MC should be measured on a fresh split surface of room temp wood. They can also be off if the battery isn't up to snuff. What are you measuring for MC?

And magnetic pipe guages are not really good to go by either. I have one right beside a good probe - the mag reads 100c less that the probe guage when I'm burning. It is a lot hotter in the pipe. Draft really should be measured - that is the primary requirement for it burning as it was designed to.

That's not to say that there aren't other issues going on with it either though...