Attn: Coaly. Fisher air intake pics needed.

[Hoytman]

I need pictures of some air intakes sizes, if they can be seen, from the inside of the doors. I want to see how large the intake air holes are and the shape.

Perhaps you can guide me to some links with pictures you may have already taken.

 

[bholler]

I need pictures of some air intakes sizes, if they can be seen, from the inside of the doors. I want to see how large the intake air holes are and the shape.

Perhaps you can guide me to some links with pictures you may have already taken.

I can take a pic when I get home. Unless I run into a Fisher before then

 

[coaly]

Which model? I can give you pics of prints for foundry.

Here is a pic from a double door that has a very thick support wall around tapped hole. It would be nice if they were all like this.. 2 1/2 diameter round, 1/2 inch wide slot.

 

[coaly]

Assuming this is for your broken Baby Bear door I’ve never recovered from; here is the drawing for your door. These things are like 3 feet x2 feet, so difficult to fit in picture frames.

 

[Hoytman]

Doesn’t matter which models. I don’t have a Baby Bear. I think I did try and help someone else here find someone to weld their door though, but that’s been awhile back.

Thanks for the blue print pictures. They should prove helpful in calculating the intake size for that Fisher stove. Not that it is necessary to calculate it. I already see a difference…

Here’s a visual comparison to another large double door stove. You can see the results of it starving for air…4 year seasoned cut, split, stacked, and top covered…12%-15%MC.


Nowhere near enough air as I suspected, even with both knobs a full 6 turns open to the stops. You see the results. That is not black paint. Entire stove glazed up, stove pipe and all the way to the top of the 15’ chimney.

 

[coaly]

Yeah, don’t remember who that was, but I remember associating your name with it. Half the cast radius of the support was broken. Nightmare fuel.

Is that an ash pan door under it? Burn on a open grate?

Perhaps the smaller intake is an attempt to increase velocity of intake air to keep smoke particles off glass? Have to be careful with intakes and baffles with glass door stoves.

 

[Hoytman]

Well, it was my first real attempt (aside from a small wood fire to start a coal fire) at burning wood in this stove. Burned coal in it now for 4 years.

Yes, it’s an ash pan door on my Hitzer 354. However the first fire the grates were covered with custom bricks I cut to cover the grates. Too down fire with 5-16” pieces of wood, 3 ash, 2 oak, kindling, and shavings.

As things warmed up the thermostat shut and the chase was in, trying to give it enough air just by using the spinners. That’s when I discovered they couldn’t supply enough air to support a wood fire on their own.

Second fire I decided to remove my custom cut bricks (leave the bi-metallic flap closed) and burn on the grates just to see if if that would help. Again, same 5 sized pieces and types of wood.

This stove has air by-passing the shaker handle that sneaks in under the fire and creates sort of a hot spot on that side of stove during a coal fire. I thought maybe that might be enough air sneaking past the shaker stub to help the door intakes burn a wood fire better. No dice. Had to resort to opening the ash pan door in order to get the fire to 300. Took quite a bit longer, far longer than my old pre-epa stove, to get the fire to 400 then on to 475-500. Even at that point still getting more smoke than I’ve seen with other old stoves. Keep in mind I was trying to run it like a normal wood stove just by the door intakes, not using the rear intake…yet. I finally had to resort to using the the rear intake as well.

No ash door vents in this stoves ash door. It has a solid ash pan door.

I left the stove damper full open during both fires and even near 500 this stove was extracting huge amounts of heat with the pipe barely above 200. I think 233 was the highest reading I got on single wall skin with my IR gun.

Now…I know there’s a learning curve with this and I don’t quite yet have this figured out yet. I’m just disappointed that I can’t run the stove with wood just with the spinners. Obviously I can help it by implementing use of the rear air intake and I may have to do that. I did experiment some with it and found something very strange….

…the dial setting for 300 degrees with coal is 3-3.5 dial setting. To maintain the same temp with wood required a much higher setting on the dial. I just find that odd.

That said, using the dial wasn’t my focus as I stated. The intent was to see how the stove operated just by using the door intakes. Seeing those Fisher pictures confirmed my assumptions of my intakes being too small. I suppose it was designed that way for a reason. Maybe that assumption is wrong though.

Had no intention of modifying my intakes. Just wanted to compare to a normal good pre-epa stoves air intakes.

Also, I did use several squirts of Cre-Away into the stove and chimney flue o help dry the creosote…which coal would have eventually done anyway, but I wanted to see how well the product worked and it already seems to have started drying it out. Apparently it works.

 

[Hoytman]

As a follow up I spoke with the Hitzer owners wife today, Cindy, and she confirmed my suspicions about my stove not supplying enough air for a wood fire using only the door spinners. She confirmed another suspicion I had about needing to use all the air intakes “together”. That is, using the spinners AND the bi-metallic air intake together. It was designed to use both at the same time, which I wasn’t doing.

I will double verify this with Dean next time I go there which will be soon.

So, chalk it up to user error…for now.

 

[coaly]

My Hitzer EZ Flo with hopper has no secondary air intake, only slots around grate at front for secondary air and air wash. It is coal only, and stack temps get way hot just starting a coal fire with wood. It has intake through ash pan door as well as the bimetal thermostat on the back. I keep the thermostat turned back after coal ignites and only use the front to control heat output. Uses far less coal and only have to open it farther on really cold days.

I saw the ash door and figured it was a coal or multi fuel so the upper intake at dampers was secondary air for coal. As you know, it doesn’t take much secondary air for oxygen above the coal bed. I think if they gave them enough air for primary through it with wood, people would open it too far with coal allowing dilution air up the chimney, killing a coal fire.

Is there a Dremel tool in the house? You know you want to. LOL

The Fishers with glass doors have the normal size primaries on the sides and enough air wash to burn overnight with air wash only.

 

[Hoytman]

My Hitzer EZ Flo with hopper has no secondary air intake, only slots around grate at front for secondary air and air wash. It is coal only, and stack temps get way hot just starting a coal fire with wood. It has intake through ash pan door as well as the bimetal thermostat on the back. I keep the thermostat turned back after coal ignites and only use the front to control heat output. Uses far less coal and only have to open it farther on really cold days.

I saw the ash door and figured it was a coal or multi fuel so the upper intake at dampers was secondary air for coal. As you know, it doesn’t take much secondary air for oxygen above the coal bed. I think if they gave them enough air for primary through it with wood, people would open it too far with coal allowing dilution air up the chimney, killing a coal fire.

Is there a Dremel tool in the house? You know you want to. LOL

The Fishers with glass doors have the normal size primaries on the sides and enough air wash to burn overnight with air wash only.

Hitzer 254/354 single door stoves also do not have any secondary air controls for the user. They do have e secondary air in the form of primary air that sneaks past the grate frame between the stove body and the bricks. I actually have this on video showing blue flames in those spaces to the back and sides of the brick retainer and also at the front door showing blue flames that are not over the fuel load. According to Dean at Hitzer the hopper fed stoves ( 30-95 and 50-93) are the same stove bodies and similar grate frames with the smaller 30-95 being only a single shaker grate but same stove body as the 254.

I would like to see pictures of the slots you mentioned in your EZ Flow to compare with mine and newer models I’ve looked at. I don’t think I’ve noticed any slots before.

So do you have pictures of the glass door Fishers air wash from the inside? LOL! I think I’ve seen them but I’m not sure.
I don’t have a Dremel, but do have the next best thing, a die-grinder with new carbide cutters. LOL!

What you said about too much secondary killing a coal fire is very true. I guess it never crossed my mind because of the stove (my stove…a 1998 model before EPA nixed the “advertising of combos) being sold generally as a combo stove and I was thinking I could use those spinners as ordinary air intakes for wood. That’s why I tried to run I only using the spinners which proved to be a bad decision and made a mess. LOL!

I actually bought the stove with the thought in mind to add secondary air tubes inside the stove to make it a better “wood” stove. I still intend to do this eventually.

Some have actually already added secondary air tubes in a Hitzer for coal, although I wasn’t a fan of drilling the front of the stove like they did. Here’s a couple links…

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Anyway…
I knew those Fisher air intakes had to be larger than what I was seeing on my doors, as your pictures confirmed.

After I go to bed and after I get up in the morning I’m going to try and take a better look at the pictures of the drawings you sent and look at them on a bigger screen than I have on this phone. I’m sure I can learn something from those.

I would still like to make this stove a better wood burner. I think there’s improvements that could be made to it even if it’s a small improvement.

 

[coaly]

Here are some pics of Fisher air wash. The slots are 1/2 x 4 on each side. There is a box in the front that intake air moves into and comes out below the doors all the way across.





Grandma IV Primary on side and air ash front. Notice in the pic above this one, the side intakes have triangular boxes inside directing air to rear.
Here is the damper housing inside stove; Opening towards rear.



Outside of side sheet primary damper opening;

 

[Hoytman]

Great pictures, Paul. Thank you very much!
That last photo, I’m a little confused as to the location on the stove because the photo is so close. Where exactly is that again?

Also, I see that Fisher, as well as other stoves of that era, even some today (DS stoves) have their air wash below the windows. DS has the air wash control both below or above depending on which model you are looking at, while other more modern wood stoves all have their air wash now above the windows.

Do you see any advantages to one or the other locations of the air wash? Is there a benefit to having it above versus below? Harman, now Legacy coal stoves get there air wash from above via a gap in the gasket, or is that just a byproduct of the location of 2ndary air?

 

[Hoytman]

Yes, I see the bolts in the triangles holding the spinners in. Clever idea, really.

So those triangles are different from and in a different location than those with the spinner bolts?

 

[coaly]

The last pic is the outside opening with air damper and bolt removed. If you look into the dark hole closely, you can barely see the 1/2 hole and corner cut off the support box.

Honey Bear started glass doors, and I have pics of the very first doors somewhere, with angle iron sliders right above the handles. Then they changed to air above and below doors with 2 sliders. When air is admitted to one area, that stays clean and the glass dirties the farther away from air. So both top and bottom keep it cleaner.

 

[Hoytman]

Good information about top and bottom air for air wash. That I can use if I decide to modify mine.

From above post…
“I would like to see pictures of the slots you mentioned in your EZ Flow to compare with mine and newer models I’ve looked at. I don’t think I’ve noticed any slots before.”

Also, in my above post I talked about 2ndary air sneaking between the stove body and the bricks. Forgot to mention that this falls in-line with Dean at Hitzer telling me (paraphrasing him) ‘2ndary air for anthracite isn’t totally necessary, but it can be helpful…mostly helpful for bituminous.’

 

[Hoytman]

By the way, those first 4 pictures it appears the insert and stoves were either very well cleaned and restored, or never fired. I’ll put my money on never fired, knowing you. LOL!


Those Hitzer 354 doors are, I’m guessing, 1.5” thick, at least, at the spinners. I’ll measure them and see.

Edit:
H354 doors are about 1 1/8” thick, best I can tell with a machinists rule. Couldn’t find my calipers. Close enough though.

 

[coaly]

I’ll get pics of the inside of the Hitzer when I get home. Been replacing a big bay window at a rental home close to my cabin the last few days.

The Hitzer is in my living room on one chimney, and a Kitchen Queen in kitchen. Years we don’t get ahead on wood, or just to take a break with wood we use coal. With the cost rising at the end of last season, I freaked out and cut about 3 years worth of wood so we don’t need to buy coal in case the price goes crazy with everything else. It’s still the cheapest heat, but with all the dead ash from the Ash Borer, we need to get rid of a quite a few cords anyway.

The first two pics of an Insert was on eBay years ago. The metallic brown with larger glass is the same stove, before and after pics.

 

[coaly]

Here is the slot across the front, right behind the front plate. The grate support has a space between support and front sheet. You can’t see it inside the stove without sticking your head in the door and looking straight down the front wall. It goes into ash pan area right behind ash pan door intake vents. You can’t see it from the bottom looking up through ash door without a light shining through it.

I stuck a screwdriver in the slot to show where it is. First picture taken across stove, through door at front plate. You can see ash in the slot near the camera. Air comes right up the inside of front face plate keeping fly ash off glass and I believe this is secondary air. If not, it was a convenient mistake.

Hitzer Model EZ 50-93

 

[Hoytman]

Ok. Thanks, Paul. Wasn’t sure what you were calling the slots, but I see what you’re talking about now and we’re in complete harmony here. That is the exact spot I videoed blue flames emanating from.

New stoves have short bricks laid on their sides across the front now. My stove didn’t actually come with them (they are 4.5”x14”) since it’s an older 1998 stove. I bought some of the 14” ones to put in there but actually never did put them in place. I used two full 4.5”x9” standard bricks, left them uncut, and placed one on each side of the stove. I cut a third one to fit in the middle between the other two. Mine actually stick above the loading door lip. In new stoves they are flush with loading door lip.

When I get the stove really cranking with coal you can see blue flames between the door skin and the bricks (sit in front of grate frame)…the fuel load being further inside the stove obviously. This generally happens when I heap the coal high up to the brick retainer and above … most of the load black…and leave a little glowing red coal up front to ignite volatiles. I recorded video of flames emanating from that spot as well as the sides and back (after initial burn off of the main fuel load)…flames not directly over the fuel load, but instead emanating from the tiny gap between the bricks and the stove body all the way around the brick retainer. They come and go like ghost flames. It’s really neat to watch, but it has to be hot. Generally it happens with about 100+ lbs of nut coal in the stove.

Last winter I changed my loading style from full heaping above the brick retainer and near 100+ lbs of nut, to a lot less coal I’m the stove. I started loading level with those front bricks I put in…the entire load level with the top of those front bricks. Since my stove is so big for my house, this really helped shorten the tending time of the stove by allowing me to rev the stove much quicker. Hard to do with a lot of fuel and stove running at idle (225-300) most of the winter. Only on few coldest days of the year so I run the stove 350-400…usually about a week is all.

As you said, and I earlier stated, secondary air, and likely why Dean said it isn’t needed for the most part for anthracite. I’m not so sure it was designed in like that as much as it being a by-product of needing loose enough fit of the grate frame to get them in and out of the stove. I call it by-pass air…primary that slips past the fuel load and between the grate frame and stove body that bypass the fuel load and becomes secondary air. What ever you want to call it, how ever it gets there, it does seem to work very well with coal.

I thought some of that air would help with wood, and I’m sure it does some, just not sure how noticeable it will be. Didn’t seem to help my situation. With door intakes so small the only thing that will help is using the rear intake as well, or a Dremel. LOL!


Also, after the problem I had burning wood the other day in this stove, I was thinking about it while enjoying a nice cold A&E Rootbeer and it hit me. Why worry about burning wood all day and his time of year. I had never burned wood in it and wanted to experiment some, but I wasn’t thinking straight. It’s shoulder season, right? Yep. That means I have two options.

1. Burn the stove like we had to during shoulder season in the old days with ore-EPA wood stoves. Short and hot fires once or twice a day. That part was easy. It was the next part that struck me a little different.

2. Rather than try and burn wood and cruise with it during shoulder season, I’ll just idle with coal. Easy enough. If I want to burn some wood this year and conserve coal because coal is higher (Lehigh went from $250 ton to $600 ton), which was what I was going to do and why I tried to burn some wood…well I went about it wrong. I need to idle coal now until it gets really cold. Then when we’re deeper into winter and temps have really dropped I can burn some wood during a time when I’ll need higher temperatures from the stove which will allow for cleaner burning of the wood. That’s easy enough fix. No noire why I didn’t think of it before then. Duh!!

Of course, once I light the coal and get the stove cruising down easy street with constant and consistent heat I might forget all about burning any wood. LOL! That consistent heat will spoil a person. LOL! Of course, so will not having to take ash out twice a day also.

Thanks for providing all those pictures. Those Fisher spinner intakes are massive compared to this Hitzer. They much more resemble the spinner intakes on my Haugh’s “SolarWood” as far as the capacity to let air into the stove.

Bob Fisher did a lot of things right, didn’t he? I’d like to have one of those glass door Fishers. Need one for about 1350 sq ft of 1958 era home.