Avalon Rainier Draft Problem (Video)

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AbhChallenger

New Member
Jan 1, 2016
20
Washington State
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EDIT JAN 1 2016: Images taken a day afterwards showing the condition of the stove after the poor burning of the previous evening.

http://imgur.com/a/Ju32e

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Hello everyone. Trying to figure out the whole wood stove thing with this one being the first. And sadly we are running into a showstopper.

Having issues with my parent's wood stove. In warmer weather it works okay (Though there is always smoke getting out when loading) However, if the temperature drops below freezing. It seems to refuse to properly draft. Even if there is a (what seems to me atleast) very hot fire inside the stove.

I suspect it is either the cap or the connection at the ceiling causing air to get in up there instead of the stove. I have read here that I can fix the ones on the pipe with a bit of "furnace cement" but I just wanted to confirm that can be done for this situation?

Just want to know what we should consider as far as potential repair of this issue. I refuse to believe that this supposedly highly efficient stove is having THIS bad of an issue if the outside temps are still in the positive.

I apologize for the rather crap video. Just wanted to attempt to show the issue and why I believe it is not performing anywhere near where it should be. We can't keep filling the house with smoke like this.

Notes:

* Has a single control and it is fully open.
* Burning well seasoned wood that is under 18%
* Was swept from the bottom less than a month ago. Sweep said he saw no issues but he did not climb up and inspect the cap from the top.
 
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Welcome. Do you have some binoculars? If so take them out and try to examine the cap. If it has a screen check for clogging.

Is this a new or old installation? How tall is the flue system on this stove? How was the wood tested for moisture? Have you tried another source or did you try some construction lumber (2x4s) cut offs to see how they burn?
 
Welcome. Do you have some binoculars? If so take them out and try to examine the cap. If it has a screen check for clogging.

Is this a new or old installation? How tall is the flue system on this stove? How was the wood tested for moisture? Have you tried another source or did you try some construction lumber (2x4s) cut offs to see how they burn?

I will see if I have any binoculars to check it tomorrow. If not perhaps I can see if I can get the camera to zoom in on it and post the video.

Honestly I don't know how tall it is. Tall enough to cause a bunch of problems for anyone getting up to check it if it is any higher I guess?

We use the meter that was provided with the stove. At first we tested at the ends but quickly learned through Youtube the better way is to split and check in the middle. So we are reasonably sure the wood going on there is good dry wood.

Never thought about using lumber. Isn't that pine? We really don't want to burn pine in this thing.

Overall we are just confused at how badly this thing is performing. My gut tells me that crappy looking interior pipe install is a big factor. But we would like to know for sure before spending the significant amount of money needed to replace it.
 
Like BG said - check the cap, it could be clogged, also I know no one wants to here this but if the cap is not clogged then I would blame the wood supply.
 
Is there a fan or clothes dryer running? Have you tried cracking a window or door? With the recent cold temps in our area it should draft better. My insert is more likely to puff smoke if I have the bathroom fan or the dryer running. Opening the back door just a crack seems to solve that issue.
 
Is this only an issue on start up? Are you trying to warm/clear the flue with a newspaper prior to start up? I do not believe the Rainer has a bypass damper. I would suggest you try the top down method of starting up your stove see if problem is improved. Many threads and videos on this process.
 
I'd also make sure the pipe is clean. Running it like that is going to cause some major problems with creosote. Make sure all of the components are clean then start with the wood quality. It might be a combination of all the suggested problems.
 
sorry you're having problems. most of the time, the little gaps caused where the stove pipe doesn't fit tight are not the problem. they aren't really big enough to cause the lack in draft. how does it run with the door partially open? are the air intakes unobstructed? i think there might be a problem further up the pipe or at the cap. how long has it been since it has been cleaned? do you clean it top down for bottom up. the unit i have that goes up through the living room, i clean bottom up using a brush and about 4 lengths of rod. i just tape up a grocery bag and run the rod through a small hole and it catches most of the soot that comes down.
thanks for the video.
 
sorry you're having problems. i don't think the small gaps in the pipe are causing the problem. normally, they aren't the issue but a symptom of another one. looking at the soot on the connector pipe, i'll bet the chimney from the ceiling connector to the cap is harboring the problem. how does it run with the door open a bit. when was the last time you cleaned it...i clean mine from the bottom up using a trash bag with a small hole for the rod. i use painters tape to tape it to the connector and collect the soot. the cap, mentioned earlier is also a good culprit. that would be one of the first things i check. also, just a thought, are your air vents unobstructed. they seldom become obstructed but it might be worth checking. the way the smoke came up between the pipe in the latter portion of the video makes me think that you have a blockage up top somewhere. good luck
 
Looks like the same symptoms I get if cap is plugged. All things equal it should draft better as it gets colder. I know if we get several weeks of humid inversion still air my cap will plug sometimes. regardless if you just cleaned it I would run a brush again and make sure that cap is clean. I use binoculars like begreen suggested because I have a tall chimney and hate getting up there, I clean from the bottom up with a sooteater. Based on your video at that stage of burn the wood should be dried out and not smoking like that if air is open.
 
I agree with everybody else. Seems odd that it gets WORSE when it gets colder. Is it possible you're running the central heat to make up for the colder temps? If it's on during startup, and the draft is already marginal, you could get spillage.
 
Overall we are just confused at how badly this thing is performing. My gut tells me that crappy looking interior pipe install is a big factor. But we would like to know for sure before spending the significant amount of money needed to replace it.
Lumber is often hemlock out here but don't worry if it is pine. Most folks out here burn doug fir without issue. East of the mountains a whole lot of folks are burning pine.
 
Overall we are just confused at how badly this thing is performing. My gut tells me that crappy looking interior pipe install is a big factor. But we would like to know for sure before spending the significant amount of money needed to replace it........
you should be able to pull that pipe between the stove and cealing without much trouble. you should be able to look up the chimney and see what its like. if its full of crap, its your chimney pipe, not the interior pipe and a good reaming should fix the problem with little to no cost.......just a thought.
 
The "sweep" skipped cleaning the cap. If it has a screen that is the first place to check.
 
Thank you for the replies! I will reply to some of these points but first I wanted to post an album I took some hours ago showing the condition of the stove after the poor burning shown in the video. I do not know if it will help but it does show.

* The large amount of partially burnt wood left over after it goes out. (We left the air fully open the entire time)
* The lack of airwash.
* Our alternative heating. A number of these electric heaters (The house has no central air)
* The overhead fan. Used to push the heated air downwards so it does not just heat the upstairs area too much. And to push the air into other downstairs rooms. (Works well for this)
* Nearby window. We had learned that cracking it open a bit helps with drafting issues but doing so had very little effect if any.

Album here http://imgur.com/a/Ju32e
 
I was unable to zoom in the cap today (I should be able to do so tomorrow but sadly I will have to use the camera for this as I could not locate any binoculars in the house) So I still don't know the condition of the cap.


Like BG said - check the cap, it could be clogged, also I know no one wants to here this but if the cap is not clogged then I would blame the wood supply.

We are new to wood stoves and learning this as we go along but I am pretty confident the wood is not the problem here. We are checking every piece that goes into that stove. And using small pieces to help oxygen get in there (I read that this could potentially cause an overfire but there is nowhere near enough air moving through there for that) That we check in the middle.


Is there a fan or clothes dryer running? Have you tried cracking a window or door? With the recent cold temps in our area it should draft better. My insert is more likely to puff smoke if I have the bathroom fan or the dryer running. Opening the back door just a crack seems to solve that issue.

Happens regardless if the dryer is on or not (They do a single wash per day) only fan is the overhead blowing downward. Turning it off did nothing to help the burn (Tired that the first time we had issues)

The only bathroom fan is upstairs in the bathroom. But the insulation between the rooms means it could be 20 degress colder so I doubt air is moving through anywhere near enough to compete with a hot fire in the stove. And the fan is broken anyway so we never have it on.

We have tried opening doors. Has no effect on the fire but we do it anyway to get the smoke out of the house (Ruining the point of running a fire stove in the first place)


Is this only an issue on start up? Are you trying to warm/clear the flue with a newspaper prior to start up? I do not believe the Rainer has a bypass damper. I would suggest you try the top down method of starting up your stove see if problem is improved. Many threads and videos on this process.

No it is an issue through the entire burn. We have tried the top down method and it does work if the outside is warm. In the 30s or below tho the lack of draft just puts the fire out and we have been forced by that issue to light it with large amounts of lightly balled newspaper and lots of very small pieces to push hot air up as soon as possible. And even then yesterday it failed causing the stove to fill with smoke before I could finally get enough of it lit to light to start the fire. Filling the house with smoke because the smoke refused to go up the flue.

If we could get this problem fixed. We would go back to top down. It seems like a far superior and environmentally friendly way to get the stove going with little effort.


sorry you're having problems. i don't think the small gaps in the pipe are causing the problem. normally, they aren't the issue but a symptom of another one. looking at the soot on the connector pipe, i'll bet the chimney from the ceiling connector to the cap is harboring the problem. how does it run with the door open a bit. when was the last time you cleaned it...i clean mine from the bottom up using a trash bag with a small hole for the rod. i use painters tape to tape it to the connector and collect the soot. the cap, mentioned earlier is also a good culprit. that would be one of the first things i check. also, just a thought, are your air vents unobstructed. they seldom become obstructed but it might be worth checking. the way the smoke came up between the pipe in the latter portion of the video makes me think that you have a blockage up top somewhere. good luck

When we opened the door to load wood. The fire would improve greatly. But we cant open it at all unless we want a house full of smoke. Which prefers the house to the flue.

We had it cleaned less than a month ago and the so called sweep said it looked fine and blamed the cold weather for our issues. That is utter bullcrap as he did not bother to climb up and physically check the cap and if "cold weather" was an issue. How do people run these stoves at all when it is -20 outside?

Trouble is the pitch on the roof is steep and I doubt it would be safe for me to climb up there and check myself. Any ideas?


Looks like the same symptoms I get if cap is plugged. All things equal it should draft better as it gets colder. I know if we get several weeks of humid inversion still air my cap will plug sometimes. regardless if you just cleaned it I would run a brush again and make sure that cap is clean. I use binoculars like begreen suggested because I have a tall chimney and hate getting up there, I clean from the bottom up with a sooteater. Based on your video at that stage of burn the wood should be dried out and not smoking like that if air is open.

To be honest we are noobs and do not know how to clean the flue ourselves yet. Something I had planned to learn before next winter.

Are you saying we can clean that cap from the inside?

I agree with everybody else. Seems odd that it gets WORSE when it gets colder. Is it possible you're running the central heat to make up for the colder temps? If it's on during startup, and the draft is already marginal, you could get spillage.

No central air. Just some electric heaters.

you should be able to pull that pipe between the stove and cealing without much trouble. you should be able to look up the chimney and see what its like. if its full of crap, its your chimney pipe, not the interior pipe and a good reaming should fix the problem with little to no cost.......just a thought.

We are noobs to any of this. If we can pull that out. Any info on how to do that without causing damage and potentially voiding the stove's warranty?
 
I've had issues with the draft once, and I removed the top fire brick and just did a good stove cleaning....found the upper part of the stove loaded pretty good with ash....it seemed to help. As far as what I'm seeing in the pics, my glass blackened up when I was either burning unseasoned wood, or choking it down too far, too early. Can't comment on the stove pipe, mine is an insert.
 
I've had issues with the draft once, and I removed the top fire brick and just did a good stove cleaning....found the upper part of the stove loaded pretty good with ash....it seemed to help. As far as what I'm seeing in the pics, my glass blackened up when I was either burning unseasoned wood, or choking it down too far, too early. Can't comment on the stove pipe, mine is an insert.

I have no idea how to go about doing that.

As far as potential ash buildup. That would cause it to perform horribly regardless of outside temp right? I am not trying to shoot down that theory I just would like to know more before doing something that can mess up the stove's warranty.

We have learned not to turn it down too far. Even fully open tho it still sends smoke out when it is being loaded. Even tho the flue should be sucking it up.
 
Your chimney setup - do you have an outside clean out? or is this chimney directly connected to you stove?
Also back to the cap - do you have a pair of binoculars? use those from the ground to look at the cap.
 
Your chimney setup - do you have an outside clean out? or is this chimney directly connected to you stove?
Also back to the cap - do you have a pair of binoculars? use those from the ground to look at the cap.

Don't know what an outside cleanout is. But from what I can tell the stove connects to that thing on the ceiling and then it has that chimney connected to it as shown in the video.

I could not find any binoculars in the house. I will attempt to zoom the camera on it in daylight so that perhaps you all can tell me your opinions on it's condition.
 
Look up Sooteater. This will allow you to clean from the bottom up. Looks like the rainier uses firebrick for a baffle. Here is the manual that shows you how to remove:
(broken link removed)

Once that is done you just assemble the sooteater and use a drill to spin it. I usually get all the pieces together inside the pipe then spin and disassemble on the way down.

Also make sure you are using the air control properly. Looks like the Rainer is opposite is of most stoves. All the way in is open and pulled out is closed. I would not try any more burns until you get the chimney cleaned. Not only could you be making things worse you may finally get a load going and start a flue fire.

Edit:
Just seen the updated pics. Is this a new install or a replacement stove? Just doesn't look like that stove has been used much. It also looks like someone has tried to solve the draft problem with silicone. If a stove is drafting properly it acts like a vacuum and smoke will not leak. If some is leaking something else is wrong and silicone won't fix it.
 
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I will look up sooteater thanks!

Yes, we keep it pushed in for max air. Otherwise the fire will just die because of the current issues.

We had some very poor burns as well before we called the sweep. According to my parents. He reported very little build up pf creosote and blamed the cold for the problems. But he did not check the cap. This was less than a month ago. And the problems happen when it is at or below freezing. Otherwise we have a poor (Some smoke still comes out when loading) but atleast acceptable fire.

This is a new stove. However the flue install was for a pellet stove (don't know what type) that the previous homeowners used. They took their stove with them and the parents purchased this Rainier to replace it.

I assume you mean the orange looking stuff (I figured it was some kind of furnace cement.) as being silicone? So do you think there is a serious issue with that connector is ruining the "vacuum"?
 
"We had it cleaned less than a month ago and the so called sweep said it looked fine and blamed the cold weather for our issues. That is utter bullcrap as he did not bother to climb up and physically check the cap and if "cold weather" was an issue. How do people run these stoves at all when it is -20 outside?"
i just took another look at your video to try and figure out your installation. the top of the connector pipe appears to have silicone or something on it sealing the stove pipe to the flu? just wondering did a dealer do the installation, was it done previously or when the stove was installed? the exterior pipe looks good but the interior stove pipe connector to the chimney appears different from what I'm used to. My installation had a thimble that came through the ceiling and it had about an 18 in "top hat" connector that was a locking connect to the main chimney pipe that had no crimping and allowed you to slide your connecting stove pipe on to it then pull the stove pipe back down for a positive connect to the stove. your installation appears to be a bit different. to remove the pipe from the stove having that slide pipe configuration makes it pretty easy to remove for cleaning. you'd have to remove the screws on the pipe, slide the pipe up a couple of inches and unlock the connect with about a 1/4 turn and wiggle the pipe out of the connector. like i said, not sure how yours is connected at the top where it goes through the ceiling.
 
I am pretty sure that thing on the ceiling was done by whoever installed the pellet stove for the previous homeowners. If that thing has to be reinstalled I guess it is better than having a stove just sitting there doing nothing. However, before we have to have that expensive work done I just want to have as much info as possible.

Along with the video of the cap I will try to get even more angles of that thing on video.
 
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