barn siding - cedar vs. cypress

[Ashful]

Trying to decide on a barn siding material, for an 1850's carriage barn I'm renovating on my property. I've had several recommendations for cypress, but the builder with which I'm working for structural issues is resistant to using it. I've had several others (both builders and other acquaintances) tell me cypress is pretty much the standard these days, for barn re-siding. I've seen conflicting info on the pricing comparison between the two.

The builder with which I'm working is a bigger fan of synthetics, versus wood siding. He is suggesting cement board, but I'm not keen on hanging that much weight on an already somewhat compromised structure. We're really jumping thru hoops on this one to build a second floor within the original structure, adding piers and columns at the central bent (timber frame), but trying to keep the original footers without underpinning in the gable end walls.

Anyone here used Cypress siding recently? Cedar? Thoughts?

 

[dznam]

Trying to decide on a barn siding material, for an 1850's carriage barn I'm renovating on my property. I've had several recommendations for cypress, but the builder with which I'm working for structural issues is resistant to using it. I've had several others (both builders and other acquaintances) tell me cypress is pretty much the standard these days, for barn re-siding. I've seen conflicting info on the pricing comparison between the two.

The builder with which I'm working is a bigger fan of synthetics, versus wood siding. He is suggesting cement board, but I'm not keen on hanging that much weight on an already somewhat compromised structure. We're really jumping thru hoops on this one to build a second floor within the original structure, adding piers and columns at the central bent (timber frame), but trying to keep the original footers without underpinning in the gable end walls.

Anyone here used Cypress siding recently? Cedar? Thoughts?

How is the siding "structural" (especially on a timber frame) as the builder stated? Cedar is a very poor "structural" wood. I have used both red and white cedar for siding and my experience is that red cedar "ain't what it used to be" in terms of decay resistance. Old growth was great, but the currently harvested red cedar is not particularly decay resistant. In my experience, white cedar is just a step above hemlock in terms of decay resistance - not very. I have used it for fencing and trim. I have used cypress for trailer bunks and my experience again is that old growth cypress is quite decay resistant, the newer stuff, not so much. I recently purchased some old oak barn siding - over 100 years old and almost no rot - but it's not cost-effective for siding, we're using it for window sills in new constructon. I am a fan of cementatious siding and just completed a house and timber frame barn using it. Applied correctly (tyvek tape behind all seams, kept clear of any standing water, etc) I have seen it looking nearly new in several older applications at a local College and after talking with the building department, I was inspired to use it. So far, so good and very cost effective. Just my experience.

 

[Ashful]

Thanks, dznam.

Re: "structural", you misread me. I'm working with this builder on the structural part of the project, digging and pouring piers, setting columns and girders, etc. Didn't mean to imply the siding was "structural".

Re: Cedar rot: Yes, you are correct. Old growth v. new growth is actually more an issue of heartwood v. sapwood, than anything else. Cedar heartwood is very rot resistant. Sapwood, not so much. Most cedar harvested in the last 20 - 30 years was harvested too young, such that it is almost entirely sapwood. I suspect the issues you've observed with Cypress may be due to the same, but have no experience with cypress, myself.

White oak... ahh, one can dream. As an old wooden boat owner and historic house fanatic, I'm very familiar with white oak. Not too friendly on the wallet, though.

 

[jharkin]

They certainly dont make wood how they used to... Driving through Newport looking at some of the meticulously restored old houses there its interesting to see many that still have their original 200+ year old clapboard intact, and alot of that was pine!. Surviving 2 centuries of Ocean air...


I'm definitely with you Joful on not wanting to hang tons of cement on that frame. Is your siding guy also going to use vertical strapping behind the siding to create a breathing space to help it stay dry? I dont know if that's code required but Ive seen it done and seems a great idea.

 

[semipro]

The western red cedar that I've been buying lately for repairs on our house seems to be of pretty good quality. WRC is very lightweight while providing good durability. Its a soft wood though so it needs to be sealed (both sides) and never pressure washed.

Agreed in general here about the quality of wood. I try to reuse older stock whenever I can.

 

[Ashful]

...its interesting to see many that still have their original 200+ year old clapboard intact, and alot of that was pine!. Surviving 2 centuries of Ocean air...

Wood boat owner here. Wood boats rot in fresh water, steel trailers rot in salt water. Woodworm vs. Tinworm... the mechanisms of rot don't survive salt.

I'm definitely with you Joful on not wanting to hang tons of cement on that frame. Is your siding guy also going to use vertical strapping behind the siding to create a breathing space to help it stay dry? I dont know if that's code required but Ive seen it done and seems a great idea.

He's proposing the use of insulated panels on the outside, with integral channels for furring attachment, so that we can completely skip interior framing / insulation / finish. This is mostly because providing framing inside would be a nightmare, due to the assortment of knee braces and siding nailers, in the original timber frame. He's very well versed on drainage plane, ventilation, insulation envelope, etc... partly why he's not a big fan of wood siding installs, I think.

Me? I've torn apart old houses with siding on construction felt, on homosote on framing, insulated with batts, with no air gap. After 60 - 100 years, no signs of rot or mold...

 

[wahoowad]

My house was built in '87 and 95% of the original cedar siding is in great shape.

I built a detached garage 8 years ago and went with the cement hardiplank product. It looks exactly the same unless you focus on it.

 

[dznam]

Wood boat owner here. Wood boats rot in fresh water, steel trailers rot in salt water. Woodworm vs. Tinworm... the mechanisms of rot don't survive salt.


He's proposing the use of insulated panels on the outside, with integral channels for furring attachment, so that we can completely skip interior framing / insulation / finish. This is mostly because providing framing inside would be a nightmare, due to the assortment of knee braces and siding nailers, in the original timber frame. He's very well versed on drainage plane, ventilation, insulation envelope, etc... partly why he's not a big fan of wood siding installs, I think.

Me? I've torn apart old houses with siding on construction felt, on homosote on framing, insulated with batts, with no air gap. After 60 - 100 years, no signs of rot or mold...

While sapwood vs heart is certainly a big differentiator in terms of rot resistance, my own experience is an apples-to-apples comparison of old heartwood vs plantation heartwood. The old growth heartwood with very tight growth rings has performed much better for me in terms of rot/decay resistance in identical applications. YMMV, of course!

The construction you're describing sounds a lot like SIPS on a timber frame? If so, there's a lot of very good reading at GBA and Building Science on the subject - it sounds like your contractor is versed in the ways of the "gurus" on these sites (and you probably are, too!). We're currently building a high efficiency timber frame using 8" SIPS for the walls and 12" SIPS for the roof with all the "best-in class" wraps, coverings, tapes, etc. along with strapping on all exterior walls and the roof.

As you know, the old houses you've torn down did not use this construction and survived beautifully as you described because they leaked air like sieves - the building "system" in its entirety in those old houses was appropriately designed and executed. If you are indeed using appropriately applied SIPS in this project, , this construction technique would be inappropriate because of vapor migration through the SIP seams and other penetrations which cannot be sealed perfectly in most cases. I know you probably know this, but other readers may not, so I thought it might be worth the hunting and pecking to explain.

We have used good quality red cedar heart clapboards for several houses and even had one with redwood and they all held up beautifully, including one which was sided in 1960 with red cedar clapboards. We don't see much in the way of cypress siding up here in the northeast - I don't think I've ever run into it as a siding material. I just tore off some 20 year old red cedar clapboards on a shore-side barn up here - very humid year 'round with lots of black mold everywhere and they were like new aside from the black mold on the stained (exposed) surface.

 

[Ashful]

dznam, I suspect you're much more well versed in new technique than me. Just about everything I know about building and renovation has been from working on very old houses with my father and grandfather, both having grown up in building trades. I probably know more about historic construction than most tradespeople today, but very little about newer materials and methods.

The system proposed for this application is very similar to SIPs, but since this is a timberframe already sheathed (old siding), this contractor proposed Dow house wrap over Dow Wallmate 1.5" thickness. I believe this was largely driven by the fact that this is building is an old timberframe destined to be a workshop space, where we don't want to mess with the interior, and the structure will be only minimally heated and cooled.

Any comments you have on this solution would be appreciated.