Best return on investment- tighten up the house or more efficient stove?

[bjorn773]

I've been surfing around here and posting questions regarding replacing my stove. It seems to get anything decent, I will spend $2 or 3K. My cheapo century puts off a ton of heat, though longer burn times would be nice. It's located in the basement, so distribution is kind of a challenge. I have a blower circulating air from the basement next to the stove thru the ducts to the bedrooms. The air coming out is far from warm. Looking at the Blaze King, it would give me long clean burns. I currently burn about 3.5-4 cords a winter. My home is a 1100 sq. ft. ranch with no insulation in the walls to my knowledge, just fiberboard and a couple layers of siding. The attic has maybe 10 inches blown in. The windows are original vintage 1956, double pane pellas. I currently have to supplement the stove with either the gas furnace or electric panel heaters to keep the bedrooms furthest from the stove warm.

Looking back, an add on wood burning furnace probably would have done a better job, but that would require moving chimneys and a lot more than I'm up for.


So the magic question is, would I be better off spending 3K replacing windows and blowing insulation into my walls or getting a better stove?

 

[bjorn773]

I was referring to R value of the windows. Basically asking should I concentrate on making more efficicient heat or keeping it in the house?

 

[BucksCoBernie]

I'd tighten the house up as this will help you out year round.

 

[Dix]

A thought.

A new stove upstairs on the main level, and take advantage of the $1500 tax credit.

Start replacing windows & adding insulation, another $1500 tax credit, if I am reading this things right.

Bammo, $3000 tax credit next year.

If I'm wrong, then still a good deal, a $1500 tax credit.

 

[semipro]

I'd suggest going after air infiltration 1st, insulation 2nd, more efficient stove 3rd would give you the best bang for your buck. The first two would also make your house more comfortable throughout.

I'm considering hiring a local consultant to do a blower-door test on our place for $350 to quantify our air infiltration and identify leaks. EDIT: they also do thermal imaging of the exterior to find hot spots.

Good luck.

 

[LLigetfa]

Save yourself $350. Turn on every exhaust fan in the house and then runaround with a stick of incense looking for air infiltration. In the cold of Winter, crack a window open slightly and see how much air rushes in. Use incense to find where air is leaking out.

Most people categorize air leaking out as an air infiltration problem. Some air infiltration is needed to supply make-up air. It's the air leaking out that needs to be stopped.

 

[LLigetfa]

air dont leak out without air leaking in!= nature abhorrs a vacumn

Ja, but a hot air balloon has a huge hole in the bottom yet the hot air stays inside it. You don't keep in hot air by plugging the hole in the bottom. You keep it in by plugging the holes in the top.

 

[semipro]

Save yourself $350. Turn on every exhaust fan in the house and then runaround with a stick of incense looking for air infiltration. In the cold of Winter, crack a window open slightly and see how much air rushes in. Use incense to find where air is leaking out.

Most people categorize air leaking out as an air infiltration problem. Some air infiltration is needed to supply make-up air. It's the air leaking out that needs to be stopped.

I'm pretty sure if you turn on all the exhaust fans in your house that the only air exiting your house will be through the fans to the outdoors (unless you have some severe leaks). I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.

I've done what your suggesting with fans and a smoke wick but that doesn't quantify anything. I agree it will help find air infiltration points. The consultants use a manometer to measure the pressure differential between inside and out with a "calibrated" blower to give you a value of air infiltration that you can compare against known standards. I hope that number will tell me whether air infiltration is really as bad as I think or if I'd be better spending my time on some other way of addressing energy usage.

 

[webbie]

I would vote for tightening up the house and the insulation. Air infiltration is usually the first culprit and windows secondly. Insulation is usually only worth adding to the ceiling - unless your walls have almost none at all. If you really want to tighten up, you can get a air to air heat exchanger (ventilator).

There are many programs and tax credits available now - check with your local utilities or state agencies - they will point you right. In our area we can get free or low cost home energy audits. Even a pressure test for air infiltration is cheap...

 

[BrotherBart]

It is always a better investment to tighten up the house. Keep the heat from cooking, body heat and a bunch of other sources in the living envelope and add wood heat to supplement it.

 

[LLigetfa]

Save yourself $350. Turn on every exhaust fan in the house and then runaround with a stick of incense looking for air infiltration. In the cold of Winter, crack a window open slightly and see how much air rushes in. Use incense to find where air is leaking out.

Most people categorize air leaking out as an air infiltration problem. Some air infiltration is needed to supply make-up air. It's the air leaking out that needs to be stopped.

I'm pretty sure if you turn on all the exhaust fans in your house that the only air exiting your house will be through the fans to the outdoors (unless you have some severe leaks). I'm not sure I understand what you're saying there.

I've done what your suggesting with fans and a smoke wick but that doesn't quantify anything. I agree it will help find air infiltration points. The consultants use a manometer to measure the pressure differential between inside and out with a "calibrated" blower to give you a value of air infiltration that you can compare against known standards. I hope that number will tell me whether air infiltration is really as bad as I think or if I'd be better spending my time on some other way of addressing energy usage.

True, it doesn't quantify how much air is leaking but stopping the leaks is more important than knowing how much it's leaking.

The second test in the cold of Winter, opening a window to see how much in-rush there is, will give you an idea of how much air is leaking out. Modern houses have permanent openings to allow fresh make-up air in. Contrary to poooook's thinking, modern houses don't stop air from leaking out by controlling how much air is let in.

 

[Todd]

I'd blow in another 10" of insulation in your attic first, it will make a big difference, it did for me and it's relatively cheap so maybe you could also swing a new stove besides. It cost me $500 a couple years ago and I think my attic is a little over 1000sq ft.

 

[yanksforever]

Doing both would be a good idea. :cheese:

 

[semipro]

If you chose to add attic insulation the cellulose stuff sold at the big box stores works well and is easy to install. If you buy enough I think they loan you the chopper/blower for free. It won't drive you crazy with itching like fiberglass will either.

 

[Slow1]

A thought.

A new stove upstairs on the main level, and take advantage of the $1500 tax credit.

Start replacing windows & adding insulation, another $1500 tax credit, if I am reading this things right.

Bammo, $3000 tax credit next year.

If I'm wrong, then still a good deal, a $1500 tax credit.

Sorry - both the insulation and the stove upgrade pull from the same credit "pool" thus the total amount of the credit maxes to 1500 (for the 2 year period)... so all improvements, stove, insulation, etc that fall under the 30%/$1500 max here max together. You can do either stove, insulation, windows, doors, or a combination of the above in 2009 and/or 2010 in any combination you want to, but the max total rebate is... $1500.

Other things - geothermal and solar for example, fall under a different category and thus don't pull from this pool and actually don't have a cap.

Don't you just love our tax code?

As always - check with your _qualified_ tax gurus before signing your tax forms, I wouldn't want to stand at an audit and try and use a forum posting as my defense I don't actually study this stuff, I just married someone who does.

 

[CO2Neutral]

I was referring to R value of the windows. Basically asking should I concentrate on making more efficicient heat or keeping it in the house?

All politics aside it is too expensive and useless to replace your windows rated at about R1.8 with Energy Star (low E, argon, etc.) Windows that are only R2.75. Spend the money on insulating your walls and basement and tightenning up the house. Energy grants are available in Canada for this and in your case would pay $1875 to insulate your walls beyond R9 -- not sure what's available in the US.

 

[Berone]

Tighten up the house. A more efficient stove will just let you heat the outdoors more with less fuel. I also recommend an energy consultant. You can certainly do tests on your own with a smoke stick or incense, but if you knew what you were doing you wouldn't be asking us. But see if you can find someone who is independent - not someone who will be trying to sell you anything.
Was Pella really making double pane windows in 1956? My house as a kid was built in 1969 and the windows were all top of the line Andersons, but they were single pane. What kind of shape are the sashes in? Weather stripping intact? Tight windows are a big issue for perceived warmth. If they are drafty you'll feel cold, even if the room is warm.

 

[madrone]

Was Pella really making double pane windows in 1956? My house as a kid was built in 1969 and the windows were all top of the line Andersons, but they were single pane. What kind of shape are the sashes in? Weather stripping intact? Tight windows are a big issue for perceived warmth. If they are drafty you'll feel cold, even if the room is warm.

I'm guessing double hung, single pane. Good storm windows might be an option if the windows are all working well otherwise. My windows were 100 years old and not very well constructed to begin with, but had storms that made a big difference. I still replaced them though, with new Milgards, but mostly because they didn't function well and some were rotten. If they were still functional, I'd have left them be.

 

[karl]

Get to Lowe's by Monday. They have unfaced R-30 rolls on sale. 31.25 square feet for 9 dollars and change. If you 400 dollars of the stuff you get a mail in rebate for 100.

40 rolls equals over 1200 feet or R-30.

Here's the break down.

400 dollars for 40 rolls
120 dollars for the tax credit
100 dollar rebate.

You cover 1200 square feet for 180 bucks. Get a friend to mail a rebate in for you too and you can cover 2400 square feet for 360.

If you're really tight, Scoop the blown in stuff up and blow it in your walls. This will give you R-60 in the attic for 360 and the walls insulated too. If your going to put rolled insulation in the attic it can't be on top of the blown in stuff anyway unless the blown in is level with the joists.

The sale ends Monday and the rebate is goo until the 25th.

New windows are nice, but you really have to have some lousy windows to begin with to get a decent pay back.

 

[savageactor7]

bjorn773 3k while significant is not a lot of money for those 3 big ticket items. A good compromise might be an Englander 30nc, a couple 3 cases of caulking for the windows and house then insulate the ceiling with any money left over.

Good windows alone will knock your socks off and you have to live another 25 years for any payback.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

I've been surfing around here and posting questions regarding replacing my stove. It seems to get anything decent, I will spend $2 or 3K. My cheapo century puts off a ton of heat, though longer burn times would be nice. It's located in the basement, so distribution is kind of a challenge. I have a blower circulating air from the basement next to the stove thru the ducts to the bedrooms. The air coming out is far from warm. Looking at the Blaze King, it would give me long clean burns. I currently burn about 3.5-4 cords a winter. My home is a 1100 sq. ft. ranch with no insulation in the walls to my knowledge, just fiberboard and a couple layers of siding. The attic has maybe 10 inches blown in. The windows are original vintage 1956, double pane pellas. I currently have to supplement the stove with either the gas furnace or electric panel heaters to keep the bedrooms furthest from the stove warm.

Looking back, an add on wood burning furnace probably would have done a better job, but that would require moving chimneys and a lot more than I'm up for.


So the magic question is, would I be better off spending 3K replacing windows and blowing insulation into my walls or getting a better stove?

I'd insulate first.

 

[PunKid8888]

I agree, Insulation and Seal. A wood stove is good for the winter, but does not do too much in the summer. Insulation and sealing will help keep the house cooler in the summer, so I would say every dollar spend insulating is worth double compared to the stove.

 

[JotulOwner]

So the magic question is, would I be better off spending 3K replacing windows and blowing insulation into my walls or getting a better stove?

My opinion....... if you want to enjoy burning wood, then get a better stove. If you want to avoid all the other efforts/costs involved with the additional wood you will need to burn, then upgrade your house.

I enjoy my stove and the whole wood burning thing, but the fact that my house is well insulated and efficient reduces the amount of time I can burn. I always hope for colder weather so I can use my stove (I am sure there are some members up North thinking that I am freak'in nuts).

 

[firefighterjake]

No question in my mind . . .

When I first became a member one of the many nuggets of truth I came away from here was that if you have a limited amount of money and want to keep warm your best return in the short term and long term is usually to button up your home and this typically means insulation.

Sure, this isn't www.insulation.com (it's hearth.com) and let's face it, picking out what insulation to go with (cellulose vs. fiberglass) will never compare to trying to decide whether to go with a steel, soapstone or cast iron stove . . . and no one really wants to look at bunch of picture of you installing your rolled fiberglass insulation in the attic vs. everyone loves watching a hearth being built . . . and there will never be any great well of support coming from the Icynene or Great Stuff users like we have with Woodstock and Blaze King users . . . the fact is insulation, while not as sexy as a woodstove, is a better option and offers a better return on your investment both in the short and long term.

Truthfully, only burning 3-4 cords of wood each year doesn't sound to be that much . . . yes, a modern woodstove may be even more efficient . . . but insulating a home to retain that heat over a longer period of time is also another way of being energy efficient. The fact that there is little to no insulation in the walls and not much more in the attic makes me think you would notice a huge difference if you were able to add insulation in the home -- a huge difference in the fact that you would not notice temperature differences as much and you would stay warmer longer. I know in my own case, adding more insulation and insulating in our Cape's knee walls has made a large difference in the comfortability factor.

Woodstoves are great . . . and I'm very happy I have one. But I am more happy that my house is able to stay warmer longer in the winter and cooler in the winter. During this time of year I often can keep the house heated all night long with 40 degree temps outside and a 66-70 degree temp inside (consistent) with just one fire in the evening and no reloading necessary . . . the stove helps . . . but more important to me is that the heat I generated in the evening is retained and so I'm not losing this heat to the outside.

I would eventually replace the windows . . . but again, I would spend most of the money on insulation. A few tubes of chaulk and some shrinkwrap plastic can get you by for awhile . . . even though admittedly while windows are not as sexy as woodstoves, they still are more fun to look at and install then a few rolls of fiberglass insulation.