BIOHEAT TARM STORAGE TANKS PVC LINERS FAILED TWICE SO FAR

[beantaxi]

Hi to all here who have posted their thoughts here....I and my family are really dismayed by the problems we have run into on the storage for our new Tarm, we were promised in December, around the 19th or so ...it arrived weeks later, after we received it and finally got the tank in, the liner leaked (it was black pvc material seemed very thick and of high quality ....but it leaked, so we had it removed, bioheat said they would ship another, so another ten days or so, wha la another liner, this time clear (which was good because this time we could see the leak, right off) well where do I go from here but to say I expect Bioheat to make good on this tank issue, to include reimbursement for the company who has wasted time installing multiple failed liners.....and we are now approaching our boiling point!! Anyone else out there having problems with the square tanks sold by bioheat, manufactured by American Solartechnics, Inc from stockton Spings Maine!!...We will post what happens with this situation, which I am sure will be watched with interest by others interested in adding storage to the Tarm Solo series or any other gasification boilers out there...BioHeat feel free to comment, as to what you plan to do about this, Chris has been posting comments along the way and seems committed to providing products of high quality, we are so far impressed with the Tarm Solo boiler but the fact that the storage is really a requirement for anyone trying to maximize efficiency and use the boiler for DHW in the off heat seasons to get the most out of this system has left us feeling like maybe we should have stayed on oil....what say you Bioheat, and if that is your company (Tom from Maine in forum discussing tanks with PVc liners)...we would love to here your comments as well....or any other purchaser/user of the square storage systems with PVC liners....before anyone else buys that storage system I suggest you hold off to see if these companies really stand behind there products....I'll let you all know....as soon as I get official word on these issues......as I have said in other threads my family has had enough problems with construction issues to last ten lifetimes...see www.constructionmismanagement.org and maybe you will see why we have had it up to here, and are tired of getting walked on....we did the web site to help others from getting burned the way we did, and I hope to have a happy ending to report to everyone when we hear back from Bioheat and the tank company...

 

[tom in maine]

Well, Beantaxi, we are the manufacturer of the square tank you describe. I appreciate your concern. Would have appreciated the opportunity to discuss this in person, as I had offered today to your contractor, who I talked to twice. I tried calling him yesterday, but only got the message after he had left for the day.

Here is the tale of woe:
We started out with two choices for liners when we started up manufacturing the square tank. We had used two basic PVC liner materials with excellent success for about 20 years. One was a reinforced PVC rated for 185F and the other was an unreinforced PVC that was rated for 180F continuous.

We had the opportunity to use EPDM and chose not to go that route given the issues we discussed on this forum, basically poor longevity and reports of EPDM degradation causing copper heat exchanger corrosion. As I had stated before, EPDM is a choice, just not ours given our past experience and the current experiences of users.

So, we went back to our suppliers and told them what we were doing and asked for suggestions for new liner material that would be the same or better than what we were using. Both replied with the materials we had used previously and one suggested an improved version of the reinforced material that had quite a pedigree in terms of strength and temperature ratings. It is quite pricey, but that is what we chose. That was your first liner. It is very strong, and as you probably can tell, is rugged as hell.

It also gets damaged in shipping since it is rather stiff.

We did not discover this issue until we received some samples from a fabricator we were trying out in California in December. They shipped us four liners. Three reinforced and one non-reinforced. The three reinforced had abrasion holes from rubbing in the shipping box, which was cardboard. The non-reinforced shipped beautifully and was set up in a tank in our shop until yesterday, when we emptied the tank for testing other liners.

When we realized the liners had a shipping issue, we stopped shipping them even though we had shipped some wrapped in foam and ordered the other candidate material, which we had used. That was in December. We asked Bioheat to pull all liners in stock and canvas all dealers who still had uninstalled liners, instituting a recall of all of them.

I should note here that any liner that was picked up at our facility, did not have the shipping damage since it usually was in the backseat of a car or truck and worked fine. And liners that shipped earlier in the season, were not subject to this failure.

This issue has been contained to a few liner customers. There has been a wait for the new material, because as I stated here, this stuff is not off the shelf material. It is custom run for us.

So, the new liners were sourced to a custom fabricator who only works with PVC with specialized equipment. Those liners arrived last week and we shipped out your replacement along with a couple others. With all this going on, we had instituted an in-house testing procedure so we can test any liners quickly and find any leaks.
We did not test these new liners since we were assured that unpacking them (which is simple, repacking them neatly is a pain) was un-necessary.
Yours was not tested. And it had a flaw in the bottom corner weld.

How to I know that? Because we had one here in Maine! And we traveled 150 miles to replace it and then took that liner to the fabricator today.
I had found the welding flaw and they were dumbfounded. And I explained that we have to pay warranty labor to the installer, deal with an incredulous customer (who has had two stupid failures in a row!) and replace these until they work.

They are replacing those liners. We have tested all other liners in house and they were fine with one exception, another welding flaw, which also went back to the fabricator for them to see. We might ship your replacement tomorrow.

I say might, because I need to go and double check them in our shop tank (we got back late tonight). I want to be sure of the fit and that there are no other issues with the liners.

The one we replaced today is fine. The boiler was functional and they put heat into the tank.

I am sorry for this long saga, but it has been daunting to diagnose this, since we any of the original liners were tested in-house before they shipped and were fine. And when they got to the job-site, they leaked! In hindsight, it is a simple diagnosis, in real life, it was a stumper for bit.

We stand behind the product. It has been outrageously expensive to pull the inventoried materials. Thank goodness we have been able to contain the problem. We know that PVC liners work since we had used them for over 20 years with a handful of failures. We have seen more failures in the past month than we had in all those years. Not a lot, but enough to be unnerving.

So, we are going to pay for all this installation labor, even though there is none offered in the written warranty. We are replacing liners that have been an issue. And we have pulled everything that was not installed and are replacing them.

We will be doubling the liner warranty, which I had reported to your installer this morning. He said you were upset, and I passed along my cell phone number and would be happy to discuss any concerns you have. Sometimes these things get confused when going through several persons.
If you want to holler at us, you certainly can do it here or on the phone.

If you prefer, we will ship you EPDM, although I would advise against it.

I think I have been even handed in my explanations of these materials. They all have limitations. We stand behind PVC and readily admit our mistake.
IF a liner every leaks after our due diligence, we will repair or replace it.

I stand behind the product. It would've been a lot simpler to throw EPDM at the problem and walk away from it. I cannot do that in good conscience and BioHeat does not want us to do that either. They have been supportive and as frustrated as you and I have been. They are a great company to work.

Hope this helps.
Tom

 

[tom in maine]

This is what all our liners go through in testing. Should have done this on the first ones that went out. Am now doing it!

All leaks show up in this process.

 

[sparke]

It sounds like Tom is doing all the right things. (I am not saying that just because he is a fellow Mainer You hit the nail on the head with the communication issue. Post people are understanding of problems as long as the Vendor communicates with the customer. Communication is key!

Tom, I am selling certified UL/CSA boilers and I have been looking for a good storage solution. I have a vendor checking into storage from over seas. I don't want to hijack this thread - can you send me a PM with some contact info?

 

[Reggie Dunlap]

Sounds to me like you should have talked to Tom before you tried to publicly discredit him and Tarm. I obviously don't know the whole story but it appears that Tom is going to make things right on his end, and a simple conversation would have solved the problem.

 

[Ugly]

He's venting, his construction project was a disaster. That's why I build my own , no one to blame but me and the wife has too much money invested in me for a divorce . Considering the lack of problems reported by members and the happy factor with the vendor in question, I'd suggest it's like eBay feedback. No process can be perfect 100% of the time, you can only make it right when things go wrong.

 

[WoodNotOil]

The thing I find pretty amazing is how all the parties concerned hang out in the same forum and how quickly guys at Tarm or guys like Tom are picking up these posts and helping these people out. Communication is at the root of most problems anywhere in life and this forum seems like another good way to open those lines. Good luck getting your tank working properly. If it is any consolation, I had to take mine apart twice to find leaks when I built it and it turned out it was the back corner getting pulled down by the weight of the water and not a leak at all. Those were some frustrating days at the end of the project...

 

[beantaxi]

Tom, thank you for the quick response, in reality my post was as some put it, not fair to you. I do apologize for that, I have no idea how many people know this site exists but I sure would have been glad to see a post like this before we decided what to do with storage, so we could make an informed decision. Unfortunately for everyone this technology appears new with the growing popularity of gasification burners. We were told by Tarm that the storage was really required to get the most out of the system and as this was a major investment we decided we should go with that reco. I would have thought that these tanks would have been out there for solar water storage customers and therefore thought they would be pretty well tried and tested and apparently you have a high degree of expertise in this type of tank/storage solution. You were very gracious and brave to answer this post and I appreciate it. We all know mistakes happen, and that it is the person/company who stands up and admits it and is willing to stand behind it that will win over long term customers and future goodwill. I have not heard back yet from the contractor doing the install, but I am sure that they will be as impressed by your answer as I am. I am just looking forward to getting this resolved, so that we can get back to the reasons we purchased this system in the first place. In fairness to us, the customer, I did not have direct contact information to get to you, and I did state in the original post that I would report on how this turns out, obviously things look a lot better for all of us as you have taken the first step to make things right, we will be glad to be a positive influence for your company and will not dwell on the initial problems, but rather the final outcome which appears will be very positive. These posts, including your response will go far in adding to some prospective customer a feeling they can do business with you because of the professional way you have handled this. If these posts were not there, no one would know about how you feel about the products you sell and what steps you take to ensure a good customer experience. Again, I would say thank you for your quick and candid response and we hope to be able to give glowing reports for your products and company when the tank issue is fully resolved. For those of you out there thinking of storage, I would say you must do it and I would not shy away from this manufacturer, but be impressed with his promise to stand behind the products he sells, that is the best anyone can ask for. We are only judged by how we handle problems and so,thanks Tom.

 

[tom in maine]

This is been a trial for all concerned. I have no problem with you venting. Water leaking in the basement is never joyous, especially from
a new tank.

That being said, we have just finished filling your replacement liner in our shop. It looks fine. We will now empty it, dry it out and UPS it, hopefully today.
We had already leak tested it as shown earlier, but I thought filling it was prudent in this case.

Thank you for your patience, I know it has been tough, but we are almost there.

And thank you for the followup. It was unnecessary, but well received!

Tom

 

[WoodNotOil]

I would have thought that these tanks would have been out there for solar water storage customers and therefore thought they would be pretty well tried and tested...

One of the major differences is the higher temp Wood boilers operate at versus solar systems. Many of the commercially available solar tanks cannot handle 180*+ water temp. With the high cost of oil in the past year there have been an amazing amount of DIY storage projects as well as additional commercially made ones. This will give people a lot more options in the future...

 

[Ductape]

How can anyone bag on beantaxi for complaining? If it were me, I'd expect that when i got the second leaky liner............ Tom would be driving to my house with his wife's own mop in his hand. Really..... if no one spoke of their problem here, how much would ever be made right??

And Tom, kudos to you for handling the situation ....... even though you didn't drive there with your mop. Its good that you have worked out the issues with your supplier, though I feel that should have been done before the liners were shipped to end users. With problems like this seen-then-solved, the rest of us can always be assured a better product. I'm glad you gave your side so we can all see the results ......... happy customers!

bean..... let us know how this works out for you in the end.

 

[beantaxi]

Thank You ductape....I was posting this so others would be aware that things can go wrong and it was a test of how these companies intend to handle the problems...you are 100% correct, no one would know the difference if I did not post, and yes maybe somewhat harshly, but Tom has so far passed with flying colors and will benefit in the long run as well, for Tom to put in writing that he is doubling the warranty means he really does believe in this product and I believe all us obviously benefit from that result. You know what, when the contractor who built our "dream" house into a nightmare and got away with it because the legal system is set up to let the bad guys win (ok they finally got OJ...but our builder still works in the public sector as a building and safety inspector, hah!) and go on to get other innocent customers I will not stand by and be idle...likewise when someone deserves a pat on the back I will be there to give it up for them.....I am truly hoping to report back that all has worked out in the end!

 

[hoth2oguy]

beantaxi, I think more than enough has been said here to hopefully reassure you that you will be taken care of. I only wanted to chime in so that you can be confident that we are all aware of your situation and working hard to make things right.

 

[flyingcow]

I should let this thread go away quietly, but I've got a square tank from Tom of Maine/ Tarm. Everything went well. Toms' hx coils are damn impressive in heat transfer. My installer had put in other systems, and was really impressed with the Toms set up. I've had numerous questions and Tom or Chris (usually via emails) has responded very quickly.

Sorry to here about your contractor woes. Can't imagine the stress that's caused. Up here in Maine, we have a couple of landfills,rumored to be owned by the mafia, bring the contractor up and we'll take 'em for a "walk". :coolhmm:

 

[flyingcow]

I should let this thread go away quietly, but I've got a square tank from Tom of Maine/ Tarm. Everything went well. Toms' hx coils are damn impressive in heat transfer. My installer had put in other systems, and was really impressed with the Toms set up. I've had numerous questions and Tom or Chris (usually via emails) has responded very quickly.

Sorry to here about your contractor woes. Can't imagine the stress that's caused. Up here in Maine, we have a couple of landfills,rumored to be owned by the mafia, bring the contractor up and we'll take 'em for a "walk". :coolhmm: Good luck