Blaze King choice is driving me crazey!!!!

[learnin to burn]

My saga - I first started looking at the BK King Classic, found a good price on line and took advice from you guys on previous threads. Downloaded the manual and started reading to be informed about installation. In the manual it says to have a minimum of a 36 inch rise out of the stove before placing any elbows. Then says that BK recommends 2 45's vs a 90 degree elbow. Also says they recommend double wall pipe out of the stove but single wall will work.

I took some measurements based on the stove specks and found I would only have 26 inches total from the top of stove to the thimble. I called BK and talked with them about my issue. They were adamant about the double walled stove pipe due to the efficiency of the stove and the fact of me running it into an outside masonry chimney. When I asked about the 36 inch rise they had a big concern that I would have drafting issues after the cat was engaged because of the short length of upward travel before the first 45 degree elbow which would have been about 16 to 18 inches above the stove vs the 36 they recommend. Now it gets interesting. BK now tells me that he would highly recommend the Princes model to heat my 3000 sq. ft. house and again was adamant that I would be more than pleased with its performance. Then he states because it only takes a 6 inch flue I would have no issues with draft at all.


What do you guys think? Any BK King Guys with less than the 36 inch rise having an issue? Does the efficiency argument for draft sound right?

Princes Owners- Will the Princes do what I would be asking it to do. Stove in basement at foot of open stairs with an open floor plan upstairs. 1500 ft up stairs, same in basement, I can close some doors to lower my sq. ft.

Sorry for the long rant.

 

[North of 60]

Lets start off by finding out what would be the largest SS insulated liner you can put in your chimney. What is the height? The taller it is it will help you deal with the 45Deg elbows. Definitely use the 45s. If 7" or greater then the King would be in your sights. With 3000sq' I would be leaning towards it. Unless your home is well insulated. An insulated liner is a must in either installation. Your min req for a direction change will become a non issue if the above steps are taken in my opinion. I have 22" before my 45-45 offset with no problems. My total height is 25 '. 20' of it is class A. 5' is double wall with 2 45s. Most manufactures recommend double wall at the stove. Remember its double wall stove pipe not double wall insulated class A chimney that some people get confused about. Remember these stoves already run a coolstack temp due to their efficiency. The heat is released at the stove. You don't want condensing to happen downstream. I hope this has helped. Will check in tomorrow eve to find out how your thread develops. Good Luck.

 

[learnin to burn]

Chimney is 7 X 7 Clay and approximately 15 feet tall from exit of basement. Thimble is 60 inches on center from hearth. As for insulation in the house I think it is relatively good. As I said in a previous thread with the regency I can keep the upstairs (main living area not bedroom at end of house) around 70 degrees as long as I feed it every 4 - 5 hours and have the stove cranking between 550 - 675. Getting up in the morning after 6-7 hours house would be 62 - 65 degrees when it was under 20 degrees outside.

Another example - Last night the low was 65 according to my outside thermometer when I went to bed. All my windows are fully open. It is still 70 degrees inside at the t-stat with the outside temp rising slowly to 68.

 

[Highbeam]

The princess also recommends/requires the 36" rise to the first bend. Going to the princess will only get you a switch to 6" pipe but all of your other problems remain. Why on earth BK would recommend an appliance rated BY THEM to heat 2000 SF for your 3000 SF home is beyond me. You should go for the king.

You need to decide which is more important, the short distance to the first elbow or the 90 degree elbow vs. the 45. It seems that the vertical rise is more important.

How big is the thimble? I'm guessing that it is too small for the 8".

 

[Todd]

You would be better off with the King trying to heat 3000 sq ft from a basement, I bet they are pushing the Princess because of your 7x7" flue. They won't recommend reducing chimney or pipe even if it works because that's how it was tested. What if you busted out the 7x7 tiles, would you have room for an 8" reline? You never know, it may just work fine the way it is too. Maybe find a 8" to 7" reducer and try it out. Woodstock sells 7" pipe. A couple guys here a burning the King with 6" flues with no problems.

I think the reason these big stove require 8" pipe is if it were to be burned full blast throwing out 100,000 BTU's it would need that extra size for the greater amount of exhaust, but most people burn them on low long burns where little BTU's are exhausted, so wouldn't a smaller pipe be better and stay hotter obtaining better draft? I'm thinking that is why they recommend 8" double wall pipe and a certain amount of rise. Think about it, if this stove is producing 6000-10000 BTU's on low burn, how many other stoves burn similar BTU's running 6" pipe?

 

[learnin to burn]

Update - Thimble is 8 inch so the 8 inch stove pipe isn't the issue. It's the short rise that I'm told the issue is with. I spoke with blaze King again today to confirm a few facts. After discussing it a little more trying to understand why he thought the Princes would work and the King wouldn't. His reasoning was on a medium burn I should be ok because the pipe would be hotter but he wouldn't guarantee it. Then he said on a medium burn in a 30 x 40 room you wouldn't be able to sit there and forced to put the stove on a low burn. On the low burn the stove pipe would get too cool to maintain a good draft on such a short vertical climb. With the Princes he said his reasoning is I would tend to run it on a hotter setting because it wouldn't radiate as much heat and the 6 inch pipe would be hotter so I wouldn't have an issue. I even asked about the possibility of putting the first 45 at the stove and running the rest of the pipe up to the thimble before the second 45. He just stated it wouldn't work because the smoke needs to go strait up not diagonal.

 

[learnin to burn]

Update part 2 - Figured after my conversation with BK I'd call Auto Rain just to get shipping rate for the Princes just in case. They tell me I can sell you any stove I have just not a Blaze King you have to come into the store if you want to buy one. I of course asked what happened because you were willing to sell me a King last week. He says they received a memo from BK that morning reminding them of there contract with BK saying they can only sell there stoves in there local district.

Needless to say I'm now stuck with my local dealers and the distributors mark up which places the BK K out of my reach.

I did check again with a local shop who has a Princes Ultra on display. The best he could do is $2400. I'm not sure I can cut that either.

 

[Todd]

Sorry to hear that, hope you find something that helps out your situation. Have you thought about adding a small stove to help out on the main floor? It's kind a hard to heat that much house with one stove in a basement.

Your 1st update kind a supports what I was thinking, he said the 8" pipe runs too cool on lower burns and the 6" pipe would burn hotter and maintain draft better. So if the King had a smaller pipe for less than perfect set ups it would help keep the flue warmer to maintain draft.

 

[learnin to burn]

"Your 1st update kind a supports what I was thinking, he said the 8” pipe runs too cool on lower burns and the 6” pipe would burn hotter and maintain draft better. So if the King had a smaller pipe for less than perfect set ups it would help keep the flue warmer to maintain draft."

In Theory yes.

I have thought about a small stove on main level but at this point it is not an option and won't be for some time. As for the regency it did save us around 300 gal. of oil last year but I had to baby sit it every 4 - 5 hours. Sitting here looking at the specs for different stoves, the Princes is a lot larger stove than most stoves on the market and even though there are larger fire boxes with other stoves nothing in my price range will get me close to the burn times and heat output of the Princes either, at least that's what all the dealers who have heard of it say. I think that 's the general idea around here too.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Buck Stove makes big cat stoves and they are on your coast. Just a thought.

 

[CTburning]

I looked at the Blaze King Princess last year as the two final contenders were the Princess and the Fireview. There is only 1 Blaze King dealer anywhere around me and I remember the Princess for around $3,000. This year the price was $3,300 and when asked about any sales "they never go on sale" was the response. The Princess would be a little overkill for me at 1600 sq ft but would have been my only needed heat source 99% of the time. The Fireview is going to let the temps dip a little more when I am at work but it came down to a compromise. One last note, someone was selling a used King Parlor I believe for like 2K here on this site. He will have to ship it to you but it is an option. It should also qualify for the tax break.

 

[Highbeam]

What do you bet that the publicity from this forum got the auto-rain guys busted by BK? I hate price fixing and manufacturers restricting sales in a "free market", BK just lost some respect from me.

 

[learnin to burn]

Buck Stove makes big cat stoves and they are on your coast. Just a thought.

I have been checking them online but still have some research to do.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

What do you bet that the publicity from this forum got the auto-rain guys busted by BK? I hate price fixing and manufacturers restricting sales in a "free market", BK just lost some respect from me.

I just cannot fathom the $1000 price difference between the east and west coast.

 

[John_M]

Bigg_Redd, I will let my cynicism shine through and boldly suggest the $1,000 price difference between the east and west coasts is local market monopoly required/suggested by the manufacturer and greed. I will readily admit to being a terrible business person. However, it is my belief that making a little money on a sale is better than not making the sale.

My stove was purchased via the internet because my nearest acceptable dealer is 1.5 hours away. They are a very successful dealership employing friendly and knowledgeable workers. When I asked if he would drive to my house and make repairs under warranty, he said he might if he had a number of service calls in my area. However, I might have to wait a month or two before he had other calls in my area. Otherwise he would just send me whatever parts were needed and I would have to make the repair myself and pay to ship the bad parts back to him. Well heck, I can get that kind of warranty/service from any dealer in the good ole' USA so I purchased online and saved a couple of dollars. Too heck with what the manufacturer wants.

Just a cynical thought and some personal experience.

John_M

 

[SolarAndWood]

What do you bet that the publicity from this forum got the auto-rain guys busted by BK? I hate price fixing and manufacturers restricting sales in a "free market", BK just lost some respect from me.

Other than signing a bad contract that gave control of East of the Mississippi to one distributor at some point, it is hard to put that all on BK.

 

[Patapsco Mike]

Update part 2 - Figured after my conversation with BK I'd call Auto Rain just to get shipping rate for the Princes just in case. They tell me I can sell you any stove I have just not a Blaze King you have to come into the store if you want to buy one. I of course asked what happened because you were willing to sell me a King last week. He says they received a memo from BK that morning reminding them of there contract with BK saying they can only sell there stoves in there local district.

%*&$&%**%! I had made arrangements with Autorain to buy 2 stoves from them, but was going to make payment this weekend. I guess I waited a few days too long. Guess I'm keeping my Olympic. Not that there is anything wrong with that...

 

[Highbeam]

What do you bet that the publicity from this forum got the auto-rain guys busted by BK? I hate price fixing and manufacturers restricting sales in a "free market", BK just lost some respect from me.

Other than signing a bad contract that gave control of East of the Mississippi to one distributor at some point, it is hard to put that all on BK.

What I'm putting on BK is the restricting of internet sales in an effort to force people to utilize their local dealers. I know that it is not a rare policy but I don't like it. BK should recognize this monopoly, the price gouging occuring, and at a minimum allow a lesser enforcement of their policy in the effected area. Why must I buy from a local dealer when that local dealer charges double or triple the other dealers. When does the insanity end?

I live in WA so I can pick one up from the factory, but wait, that's not my local dealer so they won't take my money. BS.

 

[SolarAndWood]

I hear you Highbeam...just be glad you aren't shopping for a BK on this side of the country.

 

[Bigg_Redd]

Bigg_Redd, I will let my cynicism shine through and boldly suggest the $1,000 price difference between the east and west coasts is local market monopoly required/suggested by the manufacturer and greed. I will readily admit to being a terrible business person. However, it is my belief that making a little money on a sale is better than not making the sale.

My stove was purchased via the internet because my nearest acceptable dealer is 1.5 hours away. They are a very successful dealership employing friendly and knowledgeable workers. When I asked if he would drive to my house and make repairs under warranty, he said he might if he had a number of service calls in my area. However, I might have to wait a month or two before he had other calls in my area. Otherwise he would just send me whatever parts were needed and I would have to make the repair myself and pay to ship the bad parts back to him. Well heck, I can get that kind of warranty/service from any dealer in the good ole' USA so I purchased online and saved a couple of dollars. Too heck with what the manufacturer wants.

Just a cynical thought and some personal experience.

John_M

I have no problem with BK setting whatever price they want as long as there is no fraud or coercion - This is America, after all. What I can't understand is how the market bears $1000 more per unit in half the country.

 

[Patapsco Mike]

The price I would pay for an identical Princess insert unit is $1,500 more from the Baltimore Dealer (Lamb Contractors LLC) than the advertised price on Auto-Rain! My local dealer told me the Auto-Rain price is considerably less than he pays for the stove! He said Blaze King has a policy that no dealers are allowed to advertise their prices online so as to avoid this exact situation. I suspect Auto-Rain will be pulling their prices down any time now. I have some bad news for Blaze King- the cat is out of the bag! This is a stove that should retail for no more than $2,500. The dealers are getting this stove for less than $2,100K. $1,400 is not a reasonable markup! This kind of price control might have worked in 1999, but this is the Internet age. I bet it costs Blaze King a lot of sales. For $3,500 I can buy nearly any stove on the market. No chance on earth I'm paying that for a Princess now that I know the premium I'm paying.

 

[Highbeam]

Yes, this is the information age. Perhaps BK has an old codger running things that thinks people don't talk. Also, you can just talk to somebody in portland that can buy the stove with no 10% washington state sales tax and then ship it to you if you want it.

Don't think this is rare. Stihl chainsaws practices price fixing and I don't believe that you can mail order a saw from them. Dolmar does the same thing.

 

[daryl]

Here Are some list prices in western Wisconsin

Princess Classic Blk Door $2107.00 / With fan $2348.00
Princess Parlor Blk Door $2192.00 / With Fan $2425.00
King Ultra Blk Door $2597.00 /With fan $2830.00
King Classic Blk Door $2362.00 /With Fan $2595.00

 

[Patapsco Mike]

Follow-up for those who stumble on this thread later.

After a lot of back and forth, I badgered a local dealer into selling me a Princess insert (with gold door and extra-large surround) for $2650. This is $850 less than the price I was initially quoted. So there is some hope for those on the Atlantic. These dealers have a LOT of room to negotiate. Show them prices you found on the Internet. Ask them for their best price. Offer to pick it up yourself. Be nice, etc. and you can get a pretty good deal.

I'm looking forward to seeing for myself how this stove stacks up to the Avalon Olympic I delivered yesterday.

 

[Wet1]

For those interested in BK pricing, you might want to read the comments in this thread as well...
https://www.hearth.com/talk/threads/40522/

And HB, I'm sure you're correct... Our comments here obviously prompted someone to contact BK.

While AR gave me the best price, I found many dealers around the country that were more than willing to ship a stove to me, and all were significantly cheaper than dealing with the east coast guys.

I love the BK products, but it would not hurt my feelings at all if east coast BK sales were drastically impacted since this info has been publicised here. BK really needs to address this BS...