Blaze king princess Insert ongoing issues

[Mookiepie]

Helpful info: I'm in southeast Pa, princess insert, 25ft chimney insulated, wood is a hardwood mix of mostly ash, locust, oak, and a bit of Osage orange. All CSS for a MINIMUM of 2 years. Nothing, nothing has been moisture metered over 16%, nothing. First heating season with this stove, bought in sept.
I've been having issues with this stove from day one, zero help from dealer (who installed). I cannot get more than a 8 hour burn with this stove for the life of me, and pretty much chalked it up to overzealous statistics from blaze King. That was up until a recent two week trip to Montana where the ranch we were renting had the same exact stove. The owner of the ranch was a bit hesitant to let us run the stove until I mention the fact I have the same exact stove, his eyes lit up and was more than happy to allow us to use it. The performance of his stove and my stove were night and day. Not to mention his wood was subpar to mine, my opinion of course. The cat stayed in the active zone for easily 12 hours, where mine would die down after four hours if I didn't stok the fire and burn on high for a few min after a few hours. I was blown away, his stove ran like everybody else says their stove runs. I noticed a huge difference in the way of his stove ran as opposed to mine, mostly when his stove had a flame it was towards the front where the cat is, whereas my stove'S flame is more towards the back of the stove. Also, his stove seemed to run significantly hotter than mine, but neither one of our stoves have a stove top temperature gage, so I am just speculating. Since I've gotten the stove blaze King has replaced the gaskets on the door, The glass gasket, the thermostat control, and even the cat, The dealer even came out and replaced the bypass door with a door he had in his showroom stove. None of this has helped.
Upon returning from Montana I had my liner cleaned, and did a dollar bill test on the door, the door was tight, however there was some movement in the glass so I'm going to replace that gasket once again. My dealer, who has a young kid running the stove shop is extremely nice but extremely inexperienced. Can anybody give me a reasonable explanation as to what is going on with my stove? Or if blaze King offers a service to have someone other than my inexperienced dealer come out and take a look at what is going on? I'm half tempted to put my napoleon 1402 back in and sell this, but I don't want to give someone else my headache. Please help.
Thanks!
PS I ran the stove in Montana the exact way I run my stove at home. The owner of the ranch had nothing but great things to say about his stove, hence the reason he was skeptical about letting others use it. I explained to him my issues, and he had no explanation.

 

[BKVP]

Mookiepie

I did get your voicemail this morning. I am flying the Fairbanks and little time in next few days that I am not flying. So I can respond here...

I would only add the following. Your Princess Insert and all the others are made in the precise same manner. We must do this because of RCA's (random compliance audits). You are correct in the door glass may contribute to shorter burn times as posters here know we had a Princess FS unit that had a poor glass fi and it turned out to be the culprit. If you need glass gasket or just to snug up fasteners, let us know.

The variable factors between your application and that of the one in Montana:

Fuel (Specific Gravity, Diameter/Surface areas and dare I say MC)
Chimney (Length, Insulating Properties)
Home (R-Value, Sq Ft, Ceiling Heights Etc.)

With the thermostat, cat, door gasket and door glass gasket and by pass plate all replaced, only the firebox remains. When the chimney was swept, what did you observe as far as type and amount of accumulation? If "The dealer even came out and replaced the bypass door with a door he had in his showroom stove" it's not correct to say "zero help from dealer".

Did the dealer swap out the thermostat for you or did you handle that, I do not recall?

 

[Highbeam]

Sounds like decent dealer service and Manufacturer service. Maybe I can add some more ramblings....

Burn time in a thermostatically controlled stove can depend on several things. Just because you set the thermostat knob to the same place in Montana doesn't mean that the throttle blade that actually controls the burn rate is setting in the same place. If your PA chimney is taller, your house colder, the wood split smaller, the stove could munch wood way faster even though the stat knob is at the same place.

 

[Mookiepie]

Chris-
Thanks for getting back to me. Not sure if I need a new gasket or not for the glass as I haven't taken it off yet. I'm assuming at minimum I'll have to get a new door seal as I'll need to take that off to access the glass gasket/screws. I'm assuming the door gasket cannot be reused. Is it common for these to fail after (less than) one season? I spent a Great deal of time talking at length with the rancher about his set up, and it is extremely similar to mine. I.e both of our chimneys are on the exterior, they are roughly the same height, mine is insulated but his is not. He did say they installed a block off plate when they installed the stove, however I could not see it with the stove surround. The wood that I was burning burning out there was mostly fir and he said it was only cut split and stacked for one year. Neither one of us had a moisture meter but I can only assume it was not as dry as my wood. Like I said when the dealer was out he moisture metered several pieces of wood from several stacks and they were all within the tolerance blaze king recommends. His wood splits were a bit larger than mine, but the difference was negligible. Upon taking your advice from our phone conversation late last year the wood I have split since has been in the 7-10" diameter as opposed to the 5-8" I have been using. I guess in 2 years I'll see what difference that makes.
All the maintenance done to the stove was by me, you walked me through installing a new thermostat over the phone. I'm sure you don't remember as you deal with hundreds if not thousands of people, so I understand.
As for the "zero help from the dealer" When the dealer came out to put the new bypass in, because the old one was not properly sealing, as per him, it was adjusted to tightly by him and after having the fire die down the following morning I was unable to open the bypass door to refuel and had to wait for the dealer to come back out to fix what he was supposed to fix originally. When he "replaced" the cat I received a call from Francisco alleging I received a new cat via the mail and I needed to return the old one. That was not accurate. The dealer brought the "new cat" out and took the old one with him when he left. After several phone calls and emails with the dealer and fransisco it was FINALLY figured out that I was not in possession of an additional cat and no cat was ever mailed out to me. I STILL have yet to hear back if the cat was defective, although I was informed that I have surrendered the warranty on my cat, that would have been nice to know before it was swapped out. Can you confirm this Chris? I pretty upset about surrendering a 10 year warranty 2 months in without even knowing if the cat was the issue. Frankly I question if the cat was indeed replaced. When we cleaned the liner there was enough creosote to possibly fill a shot glass. It was cleaned feb. 2 as well with the same amount of creosote collected.
After using the stove in Montana I can see why everyone rants and raves about your stoves. It was amazing. I just wish I had the same experience with my stove. There has to be some type of reasonable explanation for my subpar results. Please advise.

 

[black smoke signals]

AH keep me posted same thing going on with my Sept purchase!

 

[Mookiepie]

I should also add that when the new door gasket was sent out no gasket cement was sent out. I hat to run up to my local wood stove shop and purchase some as per blaze king customer service, even though it was listed on the sales ticket. The gasket cement arrived in the mail a few weeks later.....

 

[Mookiepie]

AH keep me posted same thing going on with my Sept purchase!

Sorry if this is a stupid question but what/who is AH. Sweet car by the way. Sorry you're having the same issues I am, very frustrating

 

[Woody Stover]

Sounds to me like the bypass door is letting air by when closed, if the flame is in the back of the box. Has the gasket sealing been checked with a dollar bill? What does the stack look like a while after you close the bypass...clean or still smoky? If the smoke isn't going through the cat, exhaust will be smoky and not much heat be produced

 

[black smoke signals]

I had to remove my dealer installed Vacu-stack chimney cap to get 6-7 burn now I don't feel alone here now that your stove shares same result as my insert.

 

[Mookiepie]

Sounds to me like the bypass door is letting air by when closed, if the flame is in the back of the box. Has the gasket sealing been checked with a dollar bill? What does the stack look like a while after you close the bypass...clean or still smoky? If the smoke isn't going through the cat, exhaust will be smoky and not much heat be produced

That's exactly what I have been saying to my dealer since day 1!! He claims the seal for the bypass does not need to be tight, just needs to be closed. He cites Vermont casting stoves not even having a gasket in their stoves.... like I care about other stoves. Totally contradictory to him replacing the door and adjusting it to the point of it not being able to be opened. The chimney constantly has smoke exiting. Not a lot, but smokes. Similar to a someone exhaling cigar smoke. My closest neighbor lives about 100 yards away and this is the first year he EVER said something to me about the smell from my wood stove. He actually likes it and reminds him of his old family cabin. My 1402 only smoked when reloading/starting up. The diffence in the flames from my fire box to the Montana firebox was so evident my wife even said something about it. This is why I'm asking the questions here, my dealer is not experienced at all with running/problem shooting these.

 

[BKVP]

Chris-
Thanks for getting back to me. Not sure if I need a new gasket or not for the glass as I haven't taken it off yet. I'm assuming at minimum I'll have to get a new door seal as I'll need to take that off to access the glass gasket/screws. I'm assuming the door gasket cannot be reused. Is it common for these to fail after (less than) one season? I spent a Great deal of time talking at length with the rancher about his set up, and it is extremely similar to mine. I.e both of our chimneys are on the exterior, they are roughly the same height, mine is insulated but his is not. He did say they installed a block off plate when they installed the stove, however I could not see it with the stove surround. The wood that I was burning burning out there was mostly fir and he said it was only cut split and stacked for one year. Neither one of us had a moisture meter but I can only assume it was not as dry as my wood. Like I said when the dealer was out he moisture metered several pieces of wood from several stacks and they were all within the tolerance blaze king recommends. His wood splits were a bit larger than mine, but the difference was negligible. Upon taking your advice from our phone conversation late last year the wood I have split since has been in the 7-10" diameter as opposed to the 5-8" I have been using. I guess in 2 years I'll see what difference that makes.
All the maintenance done to the stove was by me, you walked me through installing a new thermostat over the phone. I'm sure you don't remember as you deal with hundreds if not thousands of people, so I understand.
As for the "zero help from the dealer" When the dealer came out to put the new bypass in, because the old one was not properly sealing, as per him, it was adjusted to tightly by him and after having the fire die down the following morning I was unable to open the bypass door to refuel and had to wait for the dealer to come back out to fix what he was supposed to fix originally. When he "replaced" the cat I received a call from Francisco alleging I received a new cat via the mail and I needed to return the old one. That was not accurate. The dealer brought the "new cat" out and took the old one with him when he left. After several phone calls and emails with the dealer and fransisco it was FINALLY figured out that I was not in possession of an additional cat and no cat was ever mailed out to me. I STILL have yet to hear back if the cat was defective, although I was informed that I have surrendered the warranty on my cat, that would have been nice to know before it was swapped out. Can you confirm this Chris? I pretty upset about surrendering a 10 year warranty 2 months in without even knowing if the cat was the issue. Frankly I question if the cat was indeed replaced. When we cleaned the liner there was enough creosote to possibly fill a shot glass. It was cleaned feb. 2 as well with the same amount of creosote collected.
After using the stove in Montana I can see why everyone rants and raves about your stoves. It was amazing. I just wish I had the same experience with my stove. There has to be some type of reasonable explanation for my subpar results. Please advise.

I would check the bypass plate to gasket tension. The process is the same as the door, a dollar bill test. You can do this from inside the stove, not as easy as through the collar, but that too is a lot more work. As the forum group here will tell you, the block off plate isn't a magic pill, but there is plenty of evidence that it can help to reduce wood consumption. Is the larger diameter fuel extending your burn times? When you turn down the stove, are you able to eliminate the flames? A shot glass is a amazing low amount of accumulation. That would suggest clean burning, dry fuel and proper operation. But it would also suggest the cat is working, bypass is sealing etc.

From my position, it has to then be door or glass fit.

 

[jetsam]

I have that stove, and it can keep the cat active for 20 hours with not-so-dry oak on a 15' flue. I don't know what it could do with 16% locust and osage on a 25' flue, but I would sure like to try.

I cannot get more than a 8 hour burn with this stove for the life of me, and pretty much chalked it up to overzealous statistics from blaze King.

I assure you that is not the case.

The cat stayed in the active zone for easily 12 hours, where mine would die down after four hours if I didn't stok the fire and burn on high for a few min after a few hours.

This jumps out at me because it narrows the problem down to things that can actually put the fire out. A lot of the stuff that was adjusted and checked and replaced would make the fire burn too hot, not snuff it out.

This can't be a huge mystery; it's a steel box that you burn wood in, and the performance is hugely different from normal.

-Not enough air
- Draft problems
-Obstructed flue/cap
- Insufficient draft, possibly intermittent

- Air intake problems
- Bad thermostat
- Bad flapper
- Intake obstructed

- Poor fuel
- Wet wood

-Operation
- Thermostat set below minimum viable setting

So let's think about that list. (What did I miss, guys?)

I am going to rule out all the air intake problems because you can just turn up the knob and burn high.

As far as draft goes- Does smoke ever come out when you open the door? Has the whole length of the flue been checked, and has the cap been cleaned? Do you live in a valley or other area subject to inversions? Is your stove's flue shared with anything else?

Barring that, let's check the fuel. Is your wood stored under cover? When you measure MC, do you check wood that has been inside 24 hours and then freshly split, on the face of the fresh split?

And then we're left with operations. Are you getting the load burning, then throttling it down to wherever you want it? Be aware that most of us can't keep the cat active on the lowest setting on the thermostat; the lowest viable setting depends on your fuel and draft and cat. Are you using the fan? That makes a massive impact on burn times. On the same load, I might see a 20 hour burn in warm shoulder season weather, or a 10 hour burn in cool weather with low fan, or a 4 hour burn in really cold weather with stove and fan blasting.

his stove had a flame it was towards the front where the cat is, whereas my stove'S flame is more towards the back of the stove.

That makes me wonder if your bypass door is sealing, but 1) it wouldn't explain 4 hour burn times and 2) It sounds like the dealer already went all the way down that road.

 

[Woody Stover]

This jumps out at me because it narrows the problem down to things that can actually put the fire out.

I think Mookie is saying that all the fuel is burned up, not that the load goes out, since he says he needs to "stoke" it after several hours.

 

[Mookiepie]

Ok, to be clear I DO need to do the "dollar bill test" on the bypas door? That is the exact opposite my dealer said, I even have a text from him saying that. Maybe he should be informed, im sure it's not close to being tight. I DO have a block off plate as well as(vermiculite) insulated chimney. It has unbelievable draft and has never belched smoke into the room. I can throttle the stove all the way down to the 1st/2nd dot and still have plenty of flame activity, however there is hardly any heat. I usually burn it at 3oclock to get enough heat to keep the house at 65°. Flame activity the entire burn. I clean the chimney every four weeks for fear of a chimney fire (had one as a kid) and I haven't been burning that much in February. The larger diameter wood did you give me minimal extend it burns, however it's not close to being dry enough to use. I took about 200 pounds up to my buddies kiln in order to kiln dry it. I split it open and Took a 6% moisture reading out of several splits. The stuff was nice and dry.
I love atop a hill and there is a constant breeze, so I'm sure that affects the burn, but I can't imagine it more than cuts it in half. All my wood is seasoned outdoors in direct sunlight, single row, constant breeze without a cover (in summer) for two years, until being brought into my covered woodshed. My chimney cap did have a substantial amount of creosote buildup on it, but it has since been cleaned.
I can't imagine this stove being inferior to my old Napoleon 1402, but those are the facts.
I'll ask again, does blaze King offer any kind of service for the issues I'm having, dealer aside. I'm not asking for anything for free, I'd be more than happy to pay for the service, Unless of course this is an issue that the dealer should have and could have fixed. The stove is purchased and installed by the dealer. ~$4k
Chris could you also get to the bottom of my cat issue as per the warranty.

 

[Woody Stover]

Ok, to be clear I DO need to do the "dollar bill test" on the bypas door? That is the exact opposite my dealer said, I even have a text from him saying that. Maybe he should be informed, im sure it's not close to being tight.....It has unbelievable draft and has never belched smoke into the room. I can throttle the stove all the way down to the 1st/2nd dot and still have plenty of flame activity, however there is hardly any heat. I usually burn it at 3oclock to get enough heat to keep the house at 65°. Flame activity the entire burn.

Boy, at this point it sure sounds like the bypass door is being "bypassed." I think you are close to having this stove running the way it should, in spite of the know-nothing dealer's "help."

 

[BKVP]

Ok, to be clear I DO need to do the "dollar bill test" on the bypas door? That is the exact opposite my dealer said, I even have a text from him saying that. Maybe he should be informed, im sure it's not close to being tight. I DO have a block off plate as well as(vermiculite) insulated chimney. It has unbelievable draft and has never belched smoke into the room. I can throttle the stove all the way down to the 1st/2nd dot and still have plenty of flame activity, however there is hardly any heat. I usually burn it at 3oclock to get enough heat to keep the house at 65°. Flame activity the entire burn. I clean the chimney every four weeks for fear of a chimney fire (had one as a kid) and I haven't been burning that much in February. The larger diameter wood did you give me minimal extend it burns, however it's not close to being dry enough to use. I took about 200 pounds up to my buddies kiln in order to kiln dry it. I split it open and Took a 6% moisture reading out of several splits. The stuff was nice and dry.
I love atop a hill and there is a constant breeze, so I'm sure that affects the burn, but I can't imagine it more than cuts it in half. All my wood is seasoned outdoors in direct sunlight, single row, constant breeze without a cover (in summer) for two years, until being brought into my covered woodshed. My chimney cap did have a substantial amount of creosote buildup on it, but it has since been cleaned.
I can't imagine this stove being inferior to my old Napoleon 1402, but those are the facts.
I'll ask again, does blaze King offer any kind of service for the issues I'm having, dealer aside. I'm not asking for anything for free, I'd be more than happy to pay for the service, Unless of course this is an issue that the dealer should have and could have fixed. The stove is purchased and installed by the dealer. ~$4k
Chris could you also get to the bottom of my cat issue as per the warranty.

I will check on the warranty issue. Yes, check bypass gasket tension. So, with a full firebox, flames going on medium high, turn to low, do you still have flames or not? If yes, perhaps bypass is leaking and you strong draft is shortening burn times. If you have flames but no heat, then it's fuel.

As to your question of in home support, we do not have any such program. We look to our dealers to provide such support and it looks as though your dealer requires more support/training.

 

[woodchipper95]

Hey, mookiepie I sent you a direct message.

 

[black smoke signals]

This picture shows after one month in October the bypass bolt. Dealer removed the cat to adjust the cam over setting for the handle. Is this adjustment bolt looking at the bolt threads a normal setting from factory? I assume turning this bolt counter clockwise will close any gaps in the gasket to door correct? Mookiepie posted his bypass door would not open same thing happened to my insert dealer found stainless tensioner fell out from factory and got caught up in rod mechanized system. I have very little cam over on my insert now but it passes dollar bill check.

 

[black smoke signals]

This picture shows after one month in October the bypass bolt. Dealer removed the cat to adjust the cam over setting for the handle. Is this adjustment bolt looking at the bolt threads a normal setting from factory? I assume turning this bolt counter clockwise will close any gaps in the gasket to door correct? Mookiepie posted his bypass door would not open same thing happened to my insert dealer found stainless tensioner fell out from factory and got caught up in rod mechanized system. I have very little cam over on my insert now but it passes dollar bill check.

This picture shows after one month in October the bypass bolt. Dealer removed the cat to adjust the cam over setting for the handle. Is this adjustment bolt looking at the bolt threads a normal setting from factory? I assume turning this bolt counter clockwise will close any gaps in the gasket to door correct? Mookiepie posted his bypass door would not open same thing happened to my insert dealer found stainless tensioner fell out from factory and got caught up in rod mechanized system. I have very little cam over on my insert now but it passes dollar bill check.

 

[jetsam]

I think Mookie is saying that all the fuel is burned up, not that the load goes out, since he says he needs to "stoke" it after several hours.

mine would die down after four hours if I didn't stok the fire and burn on high for a few min after a few hours. ... Also, his stove seemed to run significantly hotter than mine.

Well, 'stoke' can mean 'stir' or 'add fuel to', so that part is unclear.

The home stove was burning a lot cooler and a lot faster, with much better wood? Even if the cat was permanently bypassed, I am not sure I can see it needing to be stirred up or refueled every 3 hours to keep the cat probe in the active range. The stove is obviously not being burned on a high setting, because OP says it needs to be burned on high for a few minutes every few hours to keep the cat going.

If I took the cat out of my stove and burned through a load in 3 hours, I would not come away saying that someone else's stove burned hotter, either. On a burn that crazy hot, the cat is probably a small percentage of the heat output.

Anyway, remember that the whole cat bypass door has been replaced by the dealer.....

I feel like this is a simple problem and we don't have a clear picture of it yet.

 

[Highbeam]

Barring that, let's check the fuel. Is your wood stored under cover? When you measure MC, do you check wood that has been inside 24 hours and then freshly split, on the face of the fresh split?

The dealer checked many pieces from the stack and got 16%. I'm thinking that the splits were cold and not resplit. Both of these mistakes lead to falsely low MC readings. The Montana stove was burning fir and Montana is a dry climate, this wood in this location dries fast. Too bad the OP could not have brought home a load of that fuel for testing.

I clean the chimney every four weeks for fear of a chimney fire

This explains the shot glass of creo from the sweeping. Very little time and fuel burnt to create deposits.

I wouldn't sweat the bypass gasket perfection. It's a big, thick, chunk of heavy steel setting down on a gasket. It will seal pretty well by gravity.

Wet wood. The stat is staying open and dumping lots of air into the stove to combust the wet wood which blows the flames to the rear of the box.

Smoking all the time from a fresh active cat, is wet wood. OP didn't say but I'm guessing the smoke is more white than blue.

 

[Rickb]

Mookie. If you turn the primary air dial down do the flames die down to just wisps or is it still full flames?

If it dies down does it still burn or do you have to turn it back up to keep it burning?

Do you have a cat thermometer?

If even turned down your full flame then you have air leaking in. If it dies down too much your wood is wet. I can burn some wood after 4 months of being split in the sun and it burns way better then 2 year old oak. The oak just takes for ever to dry.(I know you said you tested it and it was dry.... Just my observations.)

 

[webby3650]

Ok, to be clear I DO need to do the "dollar bill test" on the bypas door? That is the exact opposite my dealer said, I even have a text from him saying that. Maybe he should be informed, im sure it's not close to being tight. I DO have a block off plate as well as(vermiculite) insulated chimney. It has unbelievable draft and has never belched smoke into the room. I can throttle the stove all the way down to the 1st/2nd dot and still have plenty of flame activity, however there is hardly any heat. I usually burn it at 3oclock to get enough heat to keep the house at 65°. Flame activity the entire burn. I clean the chimney every four weeks for fear of a chimney fire (had one as a kid) and I haven't been burning that much in February. The larger diameter wood did you give me minimal extend it burns, however it's not close to being dry enough to use. I took about 200 pounds up to my buddies kiln in order to kiln dry it. I split it open and Took a 6% moisture reading out of several splits. The stuff was nice and dry.
I love atop a hill and there is a constant breeze, so I'm sure that affects the burn, but I can't imagine it more than cuts it in half. All my wood is seasoned outdoors in direct sunlight, single row, constant breeze without a cover (in summer) for two years, until being brought into my covered woodshed. My chimney cap did have a substantial amount of creosote buildup on it, but it has since been cleaned.
I can't imagine this stove being inferior to my old Napoleon 1402, but those are the facts.
I'll ask again, does blaze King offer any kind of service for the issues I'm having, dealer aside. I'm not asking for anything for free, I'd be more than happy to pay for the service, Unless of course this is an issue that the dealer should have and could have fixed. The stove is purchased and installed by the dealer. ~$4k
Chris could you also get to the bottom of my cat issue as per the warranty.

So you typically run the stove on a 3 o'clock setting. That in itself would explain the short burn times. No one that I'm aware of can achieve 20 hour burns at the setting. How tall is the liner? Age of your home? Insulation quality? It could be that your heat loss is quit bad. Some exterior masonry fireplaces suffer badly from heat loss to the outdoors, Roxul insulation around the unit can make a big difference!

 

[Woody Stover]

How tall is the liner?

He said 25'. That should be plenty, even for a BK. Shouldn't be too much, either.

 

[webby3650]

He said 25'. That should be plenty, even for a BK. Shouldn't be too much, either.

Missed it. I end up grazing sometimes when posts are so long.