Blaze King secondaries...can you encourage them?

[SeanG]

Hi all,

Based on my research here, my needs and wants, I've pretty much decided that a Princess Insert will be my first stove. The fact that I was able to see one in action helped a lot too.

The only thing holding me back, other than the initial cost, is the lack of a sustained fire show. I love how the Hearthstone, Regency and Jotul stoves that I've seen in action look when the secondaries are engaged.

For all you BK owners, do you find that certain wood species or certain actions you perform during a burn produce a sustained light show from the cat? For example, according to some BTU charts certain woods produce more smoke than others. In theory, having more smoke would give the cat more fuel right? Maybe I just don't understand how the secondaries in a BK are produced. If someone can explain that to me that would be great.

I know this is a apples to oranges kind of comparison but I would love to know if its possible for the times when I'm am able to sit on the couch in the evening and look at the fire/stove.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[jeff_t]

Secondary combustion takes place in the cat. If you have it hot and make a quick drop to the thermostat while you have a heavily offgassing, fairly fresh load, you will probably get some flames dancing up top that are ignited by the hot cat. You'll get the occasional dancing flame if the thermostat opens enough. This is assuming the glass is clean enough to see thru.

If you're looking for a sustained show, this ain't the stove. It's an efficient heating machine, and a bunch of fire is wasting fuel.

 

[Highbeam]

I would love to know if its possible for the times when I'm am able to sit on the couch in the evening and look at the fire/stove.

Easy, just turn up the thermostat. You will get flames and heat so if you're already hot this might make it hotter. Really you will be loading this stove at least once per day so you can time your reload cycle and/or heating needs to correspond with your desired time to watch the fire.

Every day when I get home I load a fresh fire.

I have owned a hearthstone and still own a non-cat an the fireshow on these is great because they are wasting tons of heat up the chimney. The BK never has a flameshow quite as cool but it is fire.

 

[NYSB]

Sean,

Note that I do not own a Blaze King stove, however I have seen them working in the shop and I would agree the first responder. Catalytic stoves, like the Blaze King, are primarily designed to make the most of the wood using a catalyst to burn the smoke. Blaze Kings are well known for their long burn times. The catalyst may glow red when hot, but this is not the the sustained fire show you are looking for. If you are looking for an insert with a sustained secondary flame display you should look at a non-catalytic unit instead - there are many and some are very efficient indeed. Pacific Energy, for example, makes some very nice units which are very efficient. Non-catalytic stoves work by pre-heating the incoming combustion air with tubes in the firebox. When the pre-heated air exits the secondary airtubes, it hits the smoke and ignites it. The practical result is burning wood (the primary combustion) with a mesmerizing fire display in the middle and upper parts of the firebox (secondary combustion)Another type of stove to consider would be a so-called hybrid, which is what I own (Regency CI2600 - has had mixed reviewes in the past but I love mine). The concept here is to have both secondary air tubes and a catalyst to get a very efficient burn. Once my stove is good and hot I can see a small "lazy" primary combustion flame which is usually light orange or darker yellow, a good display of pale yellow, blue, and purple secondary flames, and the red-hot glowing catalyst. There is probably not as much visible secondary combustion as the best non-catalytic stoves out there but it is way more than a typical catalytic stove. In this condition there is no visible smoke or odor from the chimney and it cranks out enough heat to easily heat our 2000 sqft single-story home. And this is with the stove in our masonry fireplace on an outside wall using a non-insulated stainless steel flexible chimney liner. Personally, I like the hybrid concept. You get some good secondaries to look at while catalyst ensures a very, very clean burn.

 

[Ashful]

Any cat stove will provide flame show, if you just open up the primary air enough to allow it.

 

[Woody Stover]

When I opened up the air enough to get some flames, I would sometimes see some smoke from the stack on the Fireview and Keystone. Lazy floater flames were possible while still burning clean. The smoke has to be moving slow enough for the cat to be able to catch it all, so these stoves like to run low. If you want a lot of flame, get a tube stove or as mentioned, a hybrid.

 

[SeanG]

Hi all, thanks for the info. It helps. However, I think I was slightly misunderstood. I understand that in order to see a lot of big licking flames I just need to burn on high (3) for the insert I believe. BK recommends doing this briefly each day to clean the glass anyway from what I've read and seen on their website.

A hybrid might be the way to go for me and the CI2600 is the only one that will fit my fireplace. The Progress is just a bit too tall and won't really work on my hearth since it's small.

What I really like to watch are flames like these:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/nO6uOt4Z974

When do these types of flames occur? Does it happen often and under what circumstances.

I understand that BK's are heaters first and foremost and that if I want a showpiece type of stove then I need a non-cat. In the end, I just want to be warm and the ease of use and long burn times/less reloading time is very appealing to me.

Thanks,

Sean

 

[rdust]

When do these types of flames occur? Does it happen often and under what circumstances.

I understand that BK's are heaters first and foremost and that if I want a showpiece type of stove then I need a non-cat. In the end, I just want to be warm and the ease of use and long burn times/less reloading time is very appealing to me.

Thanks,

Sean

I get the secondary flames dancing around like that after running the stove up hot and closing the t-stat. It'll burn like that for a few minutes but doesn't last long. As Jeff stated above if a secondary flame show is important this stove isn't for you. You can get flames anytime you want by turning the stove up but this is just going to waste wood and make the room uncomfortably warm. I was worried about this when I bought my BK 4 seasons ago and quickly stopped caring about it. I get a fire for 30 minutes or so when I load the stove, I'm good with that.

 

[SeanG]

Thanks rdust. After watching that video I figured the secondary flame show wouldn't last long but I had to ask just in case. I just have to balance what it more important to me in the long run.

 

[NYSB]

I would guess that part of the reason for hybrid stoves is to have some of the secondary flameshow of non-cat stoves combined with the long, cleam burn of a catalytic stove. You should read through the long thread about the Regency CI2600 mentioned above - a lot of those posts pre-date the minor changes the manufacturer has made to the newer stoves they are shipping out. Once I got my unit "tuned" for my particular setup it is has really been exceptional. I wanted a flush insert with as big a firebox as possible, with a long burn time. I also live in a densely populated suburban area and wanted as low emissions as possible. I thought hard about a non-cat stove such as the PE Neo 2.5, but the advertised burn time was a bit shorter and the emissions are a bit higher. In general I found the cat stoves that I had access to locally had lower emissions on average compared to the non-cat varieties so I decided early one to go with a cat stove. Then my dealer showed us the CI2600 which seemed to meet all our needs. He did caution us that it was a relatively new model so few customers had them; consequently they did not have nearly as much experience with it compared to others. But in the end, even with a less-than-optimal installation it has really been fantastic.

 

[begreen]

Yes there are a lot of people that like a clean glass and a good looking fire. My wife likes to tend the fire as well as me which makes feeding it every 8-10 hrs no big deal for us. It's a happy trade off to have a good fire show. We get a lot of pleasure from the good looks of the fire as well as of the stove.

 

[Highbeam]

In the end, I just want to be warm and the ease of use and long burn times/less reloading time is very appealing to me.

There you go. If you want a campfire, build one outside.

The flame show feels and looks great when you're cold. After you watch it for a half hour an are fully warmed up then it isn't as important. It's like a craving for heat that is satisfied by the look and feel of flames but then the craving goes away when you're warm.

 

[begreen]

??? A good stove in a proper installation will not necessarily have temp swings, thus the room or area is already warm on a reload. For many folks the visuals are part of the pleasure of burning wood. If all I wanted was warmth, I'd simply turn up the thermostat.

 

[Ashful]

...if a secondary flame show is important this stove isn't for you. You can get flames anytime you want by turning the stove up but this is just going to waste wood and make the room uncomfortably warm.

This is a misleading statement. How is a cat stove running at a setting sufficient to provide flame show any more wasteful than a non-cat stove is 24 hours per day? How is a cat stove with flame show throwing more heat than a non-cat does all the time? It's not.

There is no magic in the cat / non-cat technology. They are both doing the same exact thing. The ONLY difference is that the cat has the ability to maintain secondary combustion at lower burn rates, should you choose to run it that way. Run at similar air settings, they are doing the same thing, with the same results.

 

[rdust]

??? A good stove in a proper installation will not necessarily have temp swings, thus the room or area is already warm on a reload. For many folks the visuals are part of the pleasure of burning wood. If all I wanted was warmth, I'd simply turn up the thermostat.

That's why different stoves are available. For me it started out as a visual thing after a short period I just wanted to heat the house. Honestly with two young kids that I need to get ready for school in the morning or in bed at the end of the day I have no time to sit down and enjoy a fire. A hassle free stove is what I need/want right now. When I retire I may have interest in a stove with an active flame show, until then the stove with a black box 90% of the time is working great.

In defense of my BK, when it's "winter" cold(low 20's/teens or colder) my stove has some flame for a lot of the burn. It's not like a secondary flame show but more than a black box. Shoulder season when I can turn it down low it's just a black box with some red coals with an occasional flame up.

 

[begreen]

There is no magic in the cat / non-cat technology. They are both doing the same exact thing. The ONLY difference is that the cat has the ability to maintain secondary combustion at lower burn rates, should you choose to run it that way. Run at similar air settings, they are doing the same thing, with the same results.

That's right. We run our non-cat pretty much the same way in shoulder season as in winter. That is with no initial low burn rate. The main difference is the shoulder season loading will be 2/3ds instead of a full load and reloads are less frequent. If it gets very cold then we shift to hardwood. The mass of the T6 allows us to burn a hot fire in milder weather without a dramatic temp swing. It's more like getting a flywheel up to speed and then letting it coast.

 

[rdust]

This is a misleading statement. How is a cat stove running at a setting sufficient to provide flame show any more wasteful than a non-cat stove is 24 hours per day? How is a cat stove with flame show throwing more heat than a non-cat does all the time? It's not.

There is no magic in the cat / non-cat technology. They are both doing the same exact thing. The ONLY difference is that the cat has the ability to maintain secondary combustion at lower burn rates, should you choose to run it that way. Run at similar air settings, they are doing the same thing, with the same results.

Wasn't ment to mislead just sharing my cat vs non cat experience. My stove for my install can sufficiently heat my place without a flame in the stove unless it's low 20's or colder. For me if a cat stove has to be burned with active flames to sufficiently heat the space it's the wrong stove for the space. The idea of a cat stove is long/even/clean burns, when you burn it with flames you have a stove that performs like a non cat. If that's the case you should've just bought a non cat since a cat stove usually has a premium on the price tag.

Also a cat stove burning at a higher burn rate isn't as efficient as a non cat on the top end. If you need to burn at a higher burn rate you will not get the benefits of a cat stove.

 

[begreen]

When thinking about this process 9 yrs ago I decided to invest in a tightening up the house and installing a good quality heat pump for shoulder season heating. That has turned out to be a good decision for our needs. No regrets. One has to make a choice based on the options available to them, the operating conditions, looks and persons running the stove. Besides aesthetics, the main reason we have a non-cat is KISS. The only thing I have done to this stove in 7 years besides annual cleaning is a gasket replacement. With multiple people operating the stove this works best for us. That said, I can appreciate why other folks would choose a cat stove for their situation.

 

[iamlucky13]

The flame show feels and looks great when you're cold. After you watch it for a half hour an are fully warmed up then it isn't as important.

I guess I'm different. When I've got a fire going, I find myself sometimes just sitting in front of it for hours, enjoying the warmth and mesmerized by the flames, thinking about chores I should be working on instead. I might have a mild case of pyromania.

Strangely, I don't experience the same enchantment with gas fireplaces.

Really though, I wouldn't base my stove choice on the flame show. In fact, given the way it distracts me, maybe I'd be better off if I couldn't see the flames.

 

[SeanG]

Man, now I'm rethinking my who purchase. However, I'm in the same boat as rdust. I have three small kids and very little time to veg out in front of the fire. That's why the BK Princess appeals to me. Just load it twice a day and be done with the heating chores. I just don't think I'm going to have the time for much else.

 

[rideau]

There are plenty of stoves you can just load twice a day and be done with it, and many of them will give you beautiful fire shows. And that includes cat stoves.

 

[OhioBurner©]

This is a misleading statement. How is a cat stove running at a setting sufficient to provide flame show any more wasteful than a non-cat stove is 24 hours per day?

I don't have a cat stove yet but it's my understanding if you turn one up to get lots of flames the cat may not be able to keep up any longer(meaning you will waste fuel up the chimney). I suppose that's why hybrids exist, to bring the efficiency back up during a high burn right?

 

[Ashful]

I don't have a cat stove yet but it's my understanding if you turn one up to get lots of flames the cat may not be able to keep up any longer(meaning you will waste fuel up the chimney). I suppose that's why hybrids exist, to bring the efficiency back up during a high burn right?

Good question. My experience is that turning up the stove has two effects:

1. Fire box temp goes up, fuel consumption goes up, initially cat cools. The cat cools because more of the gasses are being burned in the hotter firebox, so the exhaust moving from firebox to cat contains less un-burned fuel.

2. Eventually cat temp goes up, sometimes unacceptably high. This is because more of the load gets going, you reach a new steady-state rate at which wood is off-gassing and pushing un-burned fuel thru the cat quicker than it can be consumed in firebox.

I have never seen a situation where turning up the stove caused smoke to come out the chimney, but I have seen the situation where turning up the stove sent the cat to unacceptably high temperatures.

 

[rideau]

If exhaust is going through the cat faster than it can burn it, and the firebox is not hot enough to burn all the smoke before it exits the firebox, then smoke can indeed come out the chimney. However, with both the Fireview which I had for seven years, and the PH which I have had for four, when I burned at a high burn rate the stove went to secondary flames and I had clear exhaust.