Boiler Manufacturer business model

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Just a thought.

I like the business model that Woodstock stoves has in place.

Are there boiler manufacturers that do the same or similar thing?

 

[webbie]

Just a thought.

I like the business model that Woodstock stoves has in place.

Are there boiler manufacturers that do the same or similar thing?

Well, lots of them have for decades! When I imported the Tarm boilers, we sold 70% or so of them direct to consumers.

Lots of the OWB makers also did this....

However, a successful boiler company cannot be 100% direct sales because the "trade" is a very important part of the market and you'd want to include those pros who are interested in selling, installing and servicing your boilers and furnaces......

The reason that many boiler and furnace companies use this business model is frankly because the trade (that is, both plumbers, heating supply houses, etc.) have had very little interest in biomass products...so there has been little or no choice in the matter.

Business models change to fit the market.....when I was a dealer, I sold woodstock in my shop (they had many dealers). Many brands like Vermont Castings and HearthStone started out as 100% direct to consumer.

Each business model has it's ups and downs.....

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Webbie,
Thanks for your response.
Do you know which wood boilers are selling direct to the consumer currently?

 

[711mhw]

AHS sells the WG direct.

 

[webbie]

Webbie,
Thanks for your response.
Do you know which wood boilers are selling direct to the consumer currently?

Well, without counting, I'd say most of them one way or another!

That is, unless you are sitting at their computers you don't know who and how they are selling to.

This is certainly a guess, but I would be very surprised if any of the major boiler manufacturers do NOT sell direct to the consumer.

If I refine your question to "which boiler manufacturers do not have dealer pricing at all" - that would make it more like woodstock. I suspect that most boiler manufacturers do what we did when I ran Tarm - that is, have a better price for true dealers and trade.

I'd say others here are more up on this than I am....but, just for kicks:
http://www.newhorizonstore.com/Category/101-special-deal-overstock-items.aspx

Again, it's another question whether any makers use the exact similar business model - that being an advertising, marketing and sales approach that completely and admittedly bypasses any dealer or trade (no matter what).

I suspect most end customers don't care these days...that is, do you really care whether you buy your iPad from Target, Amazon or "direct" from the Apple Store? I think the product, the value, the price...and, yes, the support (albeit by phone and email) is very important....

Speaking again from my experience, we would usually suss out where the customer lived and if it was in an area where we had experienced dealers or installers, we'd refer them. But this was maybe 10-15% of the country, so when a customer called from elsewhere we would sell them direct if they were dealing with the installation, etc.

 

[heaterman]

Stoves are one thing, a boiler is a completely different animal. I think the business model has to reflect that to a certain extent.
A stove gets set in place and connected to a chimney. Period. Very little chance for user initiated disaster. This is not the case with a boiler and by boiler I mean a true sealed system boiler, not an open system.

A lot of the trade people that Craig alluded to just simply don't want to touch anything to do with wood because of the horrendous reputation of the wood burning industry. Speaking specifically of OWB's, which sad to say are still the industry mainstay, quality is all over the place, efficiency claims are still wildly exaggerated and the warranties with nearly all of them are so full of holes they are useless. In addition to that take a look at all the different designs that are out there.
Some say they don;t need storage, some use cement for storage, some use integral storage, some use external storage that is field fabbed and would likely not pass a boiler inspection if a licensed contractor did it.

Most contractors/tradesmen look at that like it's the Wild Wild West and in a lot of cases it is. When you're a tradesman, licensing and liability laws make you responsible for that product. In effect, you are married to the thing til death do us part. If it doesn't work as advertised, guess who gets the blame 90% of the time. Right. The contractor. Most of the manufacturers will drop you like a hot potato if they think they can pin a faulty heater or poor performance on a contractor.

Most guys who do boilers for a living just don't want to be responsible for that type of product.
That being the case I don't see a lot of real live "heatermen" getting involved in the wood burning business until the industry gets some things sorted out. A commonly accepted rating system EN vs ASME would be a huge first step. A rational efficiency and emission standard would also be huge.
Those two things would level the playing field to a large degree and let contractors know what to plan on and consumers be assured of what they are getting.
Until that happens I think you'll see a lot of direct marketing for the following reasons.
1: Direct marketing has never been easier due to the internet.
2: Trades people are by and large not willing to assume the risks involved with solid fuel boilers.
3. There is no solid distribution channel for a lot of this equipment.

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

I suspect most end customers don't care these days...that is, do you really care whether you buy your iPad from Target, Amazon or "direct" from the Apple Store? I think the product, the value, the price...and, yes, the support (albeit by phone and email) is very important....

Well I do care. I am a DIY type cash paying person. I try very hard to keep my money local. not easy to do anymore. this is why I burn wood.


"Price is what you pay, value is what you actually get."
this quote is very true.
I am a firm believer that true value comes far after the sale!

So in my area there are many plumbers, getting them to your house is next to impossible. so DIY takes over.
Heaterman: I understand and respect the inherit danger and liability in a true closed system. there is no "heaterman" in this area.

So I can have a system designed to install. acquire all the necessary components and then get a plumber to hook up.
So in this situation the design has the value to me.

Now a Road trip to Garn to pick up a new Boiler with a tour of the factory. Priceless!!

 

[BoilerMan]

Completely agree with you Steve. Generally what I've seen is exactly what you've said. There are so few trades people willing to even touch and hand fired solid fuelled boiler do to the vastly varied fuel quality and that goes into the mentality of the user as has been discussed at length here.

We end up with trades people wanting exactly the same (or as close to) an oil/gas installation which leads to pellets or chips on large scale jobs. Then the cost is prohibitively high for any homeowner to consider such a system.

We here on hearth are certainly a niche as evidenced by these discussions. However some of the solid-fuelled boilers sold are installed in a very poor way (by homeowner or BIL etc.) and there are lots of them residing in basements that have been heating for years.................

TS

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

We here on hearth are certainly a niche as evidenced by these discussions. However some of the solid-fuelled boilers sold are installed in a very poor way (by homeowner or BIL etc.) and there are lots of them residing in basements that have been heating for years.................

a niche for sure. very helpful for a person not wanting a system installed in a very poor way. Many variables for an efficient system.

initially I looked at wood hydronic heating to save money. many discussions with hearth contributors and dealer reps. and quickly I realize that it takes a bit of coin to get a good system. One glaring part of the system is that low temp emitters are a wise choice. correct pump and pipe sizing saves electricity. and so on! so I feel the savings will come from a well thought out system that will perform for a substantial time.

So I am converting my home to a hydronic system(currently FHA). I have interviewed several heating guys all very good, but they all are set in their ways and push to a system that is like you say very traditional. most want a in floor system or base board. 1" hardwood floor to me is an insulator. So I come to the realization that I must design my own system and get things in place to get to my long term goal of achieving what I feel is the "value" I am looking for.

I was just curious when I get all things in place if I could make a road trip a buy direct from a manufacturer since at that point I have done all the work.

Sometimes it the journey that provides the entertainment more than the destination!



Thanks, for all the input for a guy just thinking out loud.

 

[Fred61]

So I am converting my home to a hydronic system(currently FHA). I have interviewed several heating guys all very good, but they all are set in their ways and push to a system that is like you say very traditional. most want a in floor system or base board. 1" hardwood floor to me is an insulator. So I come to the realization that I must design my own system and get things in place to get to my long term goal of achieving what I feel is the "value" I am looking for.

My home happens to be a re-worked early 1970's ranch. Purchased it for my retirement home before my larger place was put on the market in order to upgrade the new place at my leisure. Well, I put the occupied home on the market and it sold sooner than I expected. That meant re-working while we were living in the new place. I installed staple-up under floors that ended up being 2 1/4 inches thick and my radiant works fine. Couldn't be more comfortable. Most of the area consists of 3/4 inch subfloor covered with 3/4 inch particle board topped with 3/4 inch Brazilian Cherry. Other areas have the subfloor and underlayment topped with cement board and ceramic or porcelain tile. Of course with all the insulating I've done, my heat load is very low.

Sometimes it the journey that provides the entertainment more than the destination!

That's why I travel in an RV.

 

[BoilerMan]

One glaring part of the system is that low temp emitters are a wise choice. correct pump and pipe sizing saves electricity. and so on! so I feel the savings will come from a well thought out system that will perform for a substantial time.

So I am converting my home to a hydronic system(currently FHA). I have interviewed several heating guys all very good, but they all are set in their ways and push to a system that is like you say very traditional. most want a in floor system or base board. 1" hardwood floor to me is an insulator.

Have you considered panel radiators or even refinished cast iron radiators (same idea) their large surface area makes for nice low water temps.

TS

 

[NE WOOD BURNER]

Boilerman:
Yes. That is the direction I am heading currently. I think they will be a great solution for my retrofit. I got that idea off this site.
The new panel radiators look to me like you can adjust temp of each room from the radiator. correct me if I am wrong in this thinking.
I was thinking of an in floor radiant for one bathroom that I will be renovating, but may just put a radiator in there as well for simplicity.

I need to really draw up my house plan and get it to a "heaterman" or "boilerman" for a real design and parts list for the house system.

A true heat loss calculation will assist with my house loading. and radiator panel sizing.

And a decision on my future garage and boiler room will give me the heat load for my final boiler determination.

the future garage will have radiant floor if I can nail down my lift location first.