Boiler Room Size?

[1MoCast]

We just completed the construction of our new home and will be starting on the detached garage that will be the home of our new gasification boiler among other items.
I want to make certain I allow enough room in the boiler room. I have the dimensions for the boilers on the short list. I am planning on pressurized storage, but having trouble sourcing a cheap LP tank or a retort so as of right now, I am planning to weld up a 4' wide X 4' deep X 8' tall, with 3"X3" angle for stiffeners.
What else will I need for room? I am sure I will need clearance for cleaning, space for the pump and controls. I don't want to get this all built and say "Oops"
I've been lurking on this forum on and off for several years, but started pretty serious research last fall when we bought the woods and started clearing. I have a pretty good idea of most of the basics, but some of these details elude me. Thanks!

 

[jebatty]

Exciting project for you. Your knowledge of welding and what's needed for a pressure tank appears to be much more than I have. Yet, I would be very careful to make sure that what you end up with, if you make your own pressure tank, is safe. A tank failure loaded with 190F water likely is deadly.

As to size, a horizontal LP tank works very well, and there is not much loss of usable space. My 1000 gal tank is about 19' long, and I boxed it in with insulation, 4' high above the floor. From the box to the ceiling is storage space.

 

[flyingcow]

Only my boiler is in my the boiler room. Storage is in the basement of house. My boiler room is 8x12. The ceiling is 10ft, but that is because I made the boiler room in one corner of an existing garage. Outside walls are r-19, interior walls r-11. The garage is unheated, the heat from the unit is all the heat I need. The colder it gets in the winter, the more fires I need. Overall it works well.

One note, usually ins co don't like a boiler room that is accessible from inside a garage. Outside entry only. Worried about gas fumes that stay low and could seep into the wood boiler. But with new construction, you should be able to keep them happy

 

[91LMS]

beware if you plan to build your own pressurized tank. I have friend that is a certified welder and was hired to weld a tank that was designed by an engineered. when he pressure tested this stainless tank at 3 psi it ballooned and they scrapped the idea. cant go wrong with refurbed lp tanks.

keep wood storage in mind, (how much you want inside and how you will move it. the faster the better if you have to do it weekly. a lean to so its outside the envelope of the building to properly season yet right next to where it is used and under cover is the best idea imo. make sure you door where wood will be brought in is sized accordingly.

don't forget to give yourself extra bond-outs in your floor when you pour. enough to run control wires seperately. I ended up with 4 1" runs of pex and saved a bunch of money as apposed to just two 1 1/4" pex.

 

[91LMS]

you gonna throw some pex in the slab for that garage for a radiant heated man cave?

 

[tjvt]

I think the rule is combustion chamber 18" off garage floor. We set our boiler on 14" of concrete blocks. Conveniently raises the firebox to a comfortable loading height in the process.

 

[maple1]

If you really want to avoid 'oops', you will ditch the idea of building your own pressurized storage. Chances are that would be a pretty major 'oops'.

IMO a boiler room would be big enough to hold the entire winters wood too - or at least have access to the entire winters wood under cover, like thru a door to a covered lean-to or something like that. My storage, boiler & winters wood is in a space about 12' x 20'.

 

[ewdudley]

If you really want to avoid 'oops', you will ditch the idea of building your own pressurized storage. Chances are that would be a pretty major 'oops'.

For pressurized any time I've done any rough calculations for a rectangular tank I end up with an interior jungle gym of 3/8" rod stays every 6 inches or so; x, y, and z.

But if you can get your storage up high enough and then use an atmospherically vented expansion cistern on the system, then a stout rectangular tank might work out.

 

[Bret Chase]

We just completed the construction of our new home and will be starting on the detached garage that will be the home of our new gasification boiler among other items.
I want to make certain I allow enough room in the boiler room. I have the dimensions for the boilers on the short list. I am planning on pressurized storage, but having trouble sourcing a cheap LP tank or a retort so as of right now, I am planning to weld up a 4' wide X 4' deep X 8' tall, with 3"X3" angle for stiffeners.
What else will I need for room? I am sure I will need clearance for cleaning, space for the pump and controls. I don't want to get this all built and say "Oops"
I've been lurking on this forum on and off for several years, but started pretty serious research last fall when we bought the woods and started clearing. I have a pretty good idea of most of the basics, but some of these details elude me. Thanks!

You can do what you want, but no ASME cert tag on the vessel, no insurance co will touch your house, in fact they may even report it to your state agency in charge of boilers and pressure vessels.

there is a reason that all pressure vessels are round....

 

[1MoCast]

Thanks for the advise, guys. I wasn't thrilled about fabbing the tank, either. The only way I thought I could pull it off is due to pile of 3X3X1/4" angle I got when we replaced the pallet racks at work.
I checked with most of the propane suppliers in the area and they sounded as if the never scrap tanks. I had a captive audience when they were trenching the gas line to the new house and explained what I was after. He said they have 35 and 40 year old tanks in service and has never seen one scrapped in many years of working there. I'll keep looking. I will also check with some of the canning companies for old retorts, also.
The wood storage in the boiler room makes sense, too... use the waste heat in the room to melt the snow, dry and temper the wood. I suppose a floor drain would be wise.

you gonna throw some pex in the slab for that garage for a radiant heated man cave?

No, I am not planning on in-floor heat in the garage. I don't plan to heat it full time. I am looking for some hanging Trane radiators and using a heat exchanger for glycol in the garage loop. I will have room in the attic trusses and will heat one of the rooms up there. I will either do Bekotec in-floor or baseboard radiators

We set our boiler on 14" of concrete blocks

Good idea!

 

[Bret Chase]

Thanks for the advise, guys. I wasn't thrilled about fabbing the tank, either. The only way I thought I could pull it off is due to pile of 3X3X1/4" angle I got when we replaced the pallet racks at work.
I checked with most of the propane suppliers in the area and they sounded as if the never scrap tanks. I had a captive audience when they were trenching the gas line to the new house and explained what I was after. He said they have 35 and 40 year old tanks in service and has never seen one scrapped in many years of working there. I'll keep looking. I will also check with some of the canning companies for old retorts, also.
The wood storage in the boiler room makes sense, too... use the waste heat in the room to melt the snow, dry and temper the wood. I suppose a floor drain would be wise.

No, I am not planning on in-floor heat in the garage. I don't plan to heat it full time. I am looking for some hanging Trane radiators and using a heat exchanger for glycol in the garage loop. I will have room in the attic trusses and will heat one of the rooms up there. I will either do Bekotec in-floor or baseboard radiators

Good idea!

tanks typically don't get scrapped unless damaged.

every new construction plumbing code I know of requires a floor drain for any water heating apparatus, be it a hot water heater, hydronic "boiler" or a real steam boiler. it is there to give the water exiting a T&P valve a place to go without damaging the structure. there are purpose made pressurized hot water holding tanks, such as the ones Superstor makes.

there will also need to be some kind of combustion air make up, be it a OAK, or a louver with MOD (Motor Operated Damper). Otherwise you can have some weird things happen, like pulling a slight vacuum in the floor drain, overcoming the water seal in the trap, and drawing sewer (flammable) gases into the boiler room. This is especially a problem with boiler using forced, instead of induced draft in the chimney.

 

[maple1]

Try the large scrap yards in the area for tanks. I found a mountain of them at a scrap yard an hour away from me. Or I guess someone pointed me there. I was getting kind of hopeless before that discovery. Broadening your search to 2-3 hours away or even more might be worth it.

 

[91LMS]

I was told paint and a recertification vs. scrap price for them deems them scrap in the eyes of the company I got mine from. possibly states had different code for tanks, possibly just a customer satisfaction issue as well?they said often times customers will complain about paint peeling, fading, etc..


throw the pex in your floor. you wont regret. low temp emitters are your friend with a boiler and storage if you want to be able to run it down between charging. baseboard performs poorly at lower temps, do your research and be realistic about supply temps. flexibility with lower temp emitters is key, baseboard units and panel radiators for lower temps get pricey. I would imagine being able to run storage down lowers wood consumption as well.

 

[1MoCast]

I was told paint and a recertification vs. scrap price for them deems them scrap in the eyes of the company I got mine from. possibly states had different code for tanks, possibly just a customer satisfaction issue as well?they said often times customers will complain about paint peeling, fading, etc..


throw the pex in your floor. you wont regret. low temp emitters are your friend with a boiler and storage if you want to be able to run it down between charging. baseboard performs poorly at lower temps, do your research and be realistic about supply temps. flexibility with lower temp emitters is key, baseboard units and panel radiators for lower temps get pricey. I would imagine being able to run storage down lowers wood consumption as well.

This guy made it sound like the only thing that would do the tanks in was a damaged or missing certification tag.
The deterring factor for the pex is the Styrofoam. I spent more on that than on pex, manifolds, staples and accessories combined. I was also told that the radiant heated doesn't work well for those "I think I'll work in the shop tonight" situations... it is too big of heat sink to respond on demand. I may do the Bekotec in the upstairs workshop only because I have most of a box left over. I have to check to see if the room in the attic truss's bottom chord will hold the added load.
My research on this site lead me to an "emergency heat dump" in case of power failures or other over temperature events. I thought the fan/radiator units could also serve that purpose with the right controls scheme.
Thanks for the input... it gives me a lot to think about. That "low temperature emitters are your friend" makes a lot of sense. It basically means more BTUs are stored per pound of stored water when your use temp to storage temp ratio is higher. Should result in longer time between firings

 

[Mike Fromme]

I wouldn't worry about glycol in the garage heaters if you have an attached garage with heated space above.

That is what I have. When I don't want to keep the garage heated I just turn the t-stat down to 35. The zone almost never turns on -- not often enough to worry about the expense of glycol and a heat exchanger/controls.

 

[velvetfoot]

How about anhydrous ammonia tanks, aka "nurse tanks", I believe. If you're anywhere near some farming country. I think they're more heavy duty than propane tanks.

 

[TCaldwell]

Aside from having enough room for the boiler to meet code and service it comfortably, wood storage is important. Especially for a gasser, dry room temp, not dry 15deg wood is probably the most important thing for consistent efficient burning. I have room for 4.5 cord inside my boiler barn, 16x24 and I wish it was bigger, at least to get from mid dec. to mid march without refilling. I will probably add a lean to off one side with a door into the barn to store another 4 cord that I can easily bring in a month before burning. If I was to do it over again, another 4ft wider would have been much better! Also be mindful of the wind patterns around your house, if you plan on summer or shoulder season burns with regards to your barn placement. I would have liked my barn closer to the house, but due to prevailing winds its 35ft behind.

 

[1MoCast]

Thanks to a tip in a PM from a member who lives here in Minnesota I was able to locate some LP tanks within 40 miles. They have a couple 500s a and 1000. I will need to decide how much is enough.

I wouldn't worry about glycol in the garage heaters if you have an attached garage with heated space above.

Well, it will be a detached garage with room in the attic trusses. But that is something to consider... a bit more wood or the cost of the extra hardware. I guess I can always add it later. I was hoping I could heat at least a portion of the upstairs workshop with the waste heat of the boiler using a bathroom fan and a return air duct.

Also be mindful of the wind patterns around your house, if you plan on summer or shoulder season burns with regards to your barn placement.

I don't have a lot of choices on placement because of the topography and the drain field. I'll be straight west, so it should work.