Burn in Jotul 450

[cityevader]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My name is cityevader, and I burn wood. (Insert "Hi, Cityevader!" here)

I'm asking advice as directed from another wood forum.

I have a Jotul 450 insert that has a hard time fully burning.

I attribute this to the poorly desined intake which enters at the front of the insert, and which has to travel through the ash and coals piled against it. Meanwhile, the secondary burn tubes are sucking freely.

A new fire burns wonderfully from the primary intake, but a couple hours thereafter gets suffocated by ash/coals...meaning the coals no longer "glow from below" and only glow on the surface if new wood added (I assume because the primary air can't get throught the ash and charcoal all the way to the back of the stove where the secondary starts).....so more and more wood gets added so that there is a 5 inch layer of charcoal that would burn fabulous if only there was enough air from below.

Since the primary intake is at the lowest point and easily restricted, I'm thinking about a grate system, but the extremely tiny firebox protests. If a three inch depth grate was put in, only pieces 2-inch diameter in the rear and maybe 7 inches diameter in front could be placed after full temp reached.

Any ideas?

(First posts...need to learn your site...)
__________________

 

[My_3_Girls]

Try searching for "kennebec" or "jotul 450" and you will find a wealth of info.

 

[begreen]

The air intake is low, but it is fed to an airwash system across the top of the glass. And secondary air is only fed above the fire. I would closely inspect the wood for partial dampness. Resplit a split of two and feel the freshly exposed surface. It is cool and damp? If you take a pair of splits and bang them against each other, do you get a nice ;plink or a thud (damp).

Also, check the flue top for possible creosote clogging and the flue cap to see if the screen is plugging up.

If the wood and flue check out fine, try moving the coals front and center in the firebox and open up the air control all the way to burn them down a bit.

 

[cityevader]

I'm using white oak and madronne, both split and stacked two years ago and are dry and lightweight as possible.

There's a good strong draft when burning, the screen is clean, and 6inch double wall is two years old and hasn't been cleaned yet as my fires are wide open for max heat...so doubt plugged pipes, but it is possible.

 

[oconnor]

Welcome to the forums.

I have a 450 Kennebec, and it burns real well in all phases. One thing I have heard on here though is that if you tend to leave a lot of coals, or lay wood quite close to the primary air intake, the "bump" front and center behind the doors, then ash can fill the holes and plumbing below and choke it off. There was a post here in the last month with that problem. They pulled the dome off, and vacuumed it out, and all was well. You will need a new gasket if you do that though.

The primary intake is almost 2 inches above the firebox floor, so I wouldn't say it is low - any higher and it would serve as an andiron. These units are well designed IMHO - you shouldn't need to modify a Jotul to get it to work well.

What follows will seem harsh, but don't take it personally - As for not cleaning the flue in over two years - BAD PLAN. We have had folks on here have the pipe plug in a weekend when the wood is just wet enough and the temps are just warm enough. Even if you solve the burn issue in some other way - CLEAN THAT FLUE!.

We would like to get to know you, not read about you in the paper.

Rant complete.

I hope we can help you get that unit workin well. Let us know how it goes.

 

[cityevader]

I peeked into the chimney pipe, approx 3 feet extending above masonry, and looks like 1/4 to 3/8 of creosote... 2 years buildup with no cleaning yet.
Vacuumed out the primary ports from inside the stove tonight....mild improvement...but still no white-hot coals near the inlet...rather a slow yellow burn like it's starving for air.
Will try to see if any spiderwebs in the outside air inlet.

 

[My_3_Girls]

This insert gets it's combustion air from inside the fireplace cavity. If the surround is sealed to the masonry, then it's starving for air. If you have an outside air kit, then this is plugged or kinked. You say you have a good draft, (outgoing air), so the only issue should be your combustion air (incoming air).

 

[cityevader]

Before I disrupt the cover over the primary, is there a special gasket for it should get ahead of time? Or gasket cement alone will work?

I'll peek inside it next. Then poke around the inlet outside with a small stick for possible spiderwebs, then let her cool down and clean chimney pipe......
except we just had a cold snap here in the Bay Area. Snowed at my place here in the Santa Cruz mountains at 840 ft altitude...not the time to be dinking around with stove.

Maybe I'll just notch out a bit of door gasket at the bottom for temporary "fix".

 

[oconnor]

Not sure about the gasket, but cement would work in the interim. I actually just started to vacuum mine out in that area with a reducer to fit the holes.

One more question - has this been a problem since installed, or a new problem after a period of working well?

 

[cityevader]

I've always been disappointed with this insert...but a long story would be inolved.....

I seem to remember one-year-old Madronne in my old stove (that I now miss dearly..siiiggghhhhh) burning to nothing. Now I have two-year-old Madronne fire dying out with charcoal chunks left.

Every instinct screams primary resriction. I poked around with a hanger at the outside air inlet while burning, no airflow change....but it HAS to be inlet problem, since cracking open front door makes some good organ notes as the chimney resonates from a sudden full throttle fire.

Process of elimination brings me back to a restriction in the inlet between the outer pipe and the firebox. Hopefully this weekend will be warm enough to both open/inspect the firebox inlet and clean the chimney pipe.

BTW, previously i had an old semi-freestanding stove halfway into the masonry fireplace but free vented without pipe into the firepalce as I bought the house this way back in "02. That thing kicked out heat like crazy, but when I had a chimney sweeper come by he hept muttering OMG...OMG...OMG...over and over. Discovered the stove "vented" with no piping whatsoever, into the fireplace and up a bare brick chimney with huge layer of creosote ready to go up in flames, and man, I truly wish the house DID go up in flames....( but that is a longer story) I simply wanted to "re-pipe" chimney with double wall and keep the stove, but my folks decided to "help" and bought me the Jotul insert and had it installed.

The installers did the same thing, exhausting directly into the brick chimney with no piping except a 4 foot flex past the flue door. So I had to pony up and install the piping myself. Forever disappointed with the heat output of my free insert that sucks compared the prior stove with more than double firebox size and heat output....So my "gift" ended up costing me a grand and I get less heat out of it.....siiiggghhh...;

 

[oconnor]

cityevader

What is the setup of your stove - liner size and height, chimney position etc. Also, the stove draws it's air from inside the fireplace firebox - I assume that the pipe is free of obstructions and can breathe back there, and isn't jambed against the back wall of the fireplace. Edit - on reading thru again, I note you have an OAK, so you know that already.

Besides that, it sounds to me like you have way to much ash in the box. I clean mine out but for 3 pints or so of coals each day. You mention that the intake is at the lowest spot in the stove - the top of the intake in mine is 2 to 3 inches above the stove floor - they didn't put 2 rows deep of firebrick in the bottom of your unit did they?

Here is a pic of the airflow in your stove - you mentioned secondaries at the back, but they are actually at the top of the firebox integrated into the baffle.

 

[cityevader]

Correct, there is a lower layer of firebrick, so the initial primary entry between 2-3 inches above them. The secondary plumbing goes along the back and enters the baffles sloping from back to front.

When I open up the cover for the primary inside the stove, I'm hoping to see some blockage, otherwise, that's just the way it is and i'll have to live with it.....keeping the glass door cracked open more than closed....yikes

 

[myzamboni]

Run your stove wide open when you get a coal build up with a split or two to burn them down. It does sound like you damper down too soon or you just cant damper all the way with the wood your are burning.

 

[ba_jie]

Hi, Cityevader,
I had the similar experience as you. But i am relatively new to wood burning. So i am still in the stage of blaming myself, for not burning the right wood, the right way, etc etc.
I saw quite a few posts on this forum complaining Jotul 450 after searching keyword "Jotul 450". Although I know people tend to rant their frustration more than their happiness with the stove.
For those people had had bad experience with your Jotul 450, did you finally solve your problem? or you are just living with the fact that this stove is what it is?

Correct, there is a lower layer of firebrick, so the initial primary entry between 2-3 inches above them. The secondary plumbing goes along the back and enters the baffles sloping from back to front.

When I open up the cover for the primary inside the stove, I'm hoping to see some blockage, otherwise, that's just the way it is and i'll have to live with it.....keeping the glass door cracked open more than closed....yikes

 

[Rudyjr]

I am in the first week of burning with this insert. I too was disappointed with my first couple of burns. After talking to Brent I am now convinced that I am to blame. Yesterday afternoon I decided to build a good base fire, left the primary open longer, and worked up a good coal bed. The outside temperature was in the high 20's, my furnace was set at 66. I cut back the primary air to about 50 % by 2:30, stove was burning very good. The last time I reloaded the stove was 7pm with 3 medium size splts ,left the primary wide open for about fifteen minutes and then cut back to almost fully closed. Went up to bed at 9pm without reloading the thermostat read 69, probbly 72-75 in basement rec-room. At 5 this morning the blower was still running and there were plenty of coals under the ash. Stove temperature was still pretty warm, upstairs temperature was 65 at the thermostat. I think I have alot to learn about using these new stoves.Once this stove was going good you had to virtually close the primary or I think this thing would run wild,I never thought this would be the case after the first few failures I had. I have never seen so little wood last so long.I see now that I was not building a substantial enough base and cutting the air back too soon.

 

[cityevader]

Finally warmed up a little bit, so got home from work tonight, scooped out 5 inches of unburnt charcoal. Tried to remove the front bump of a cover. Only one screw came out. The other siezed and rounded. Scraped out the gasket with a thin hook, which allowed enough free play to spin the cover out of the way, and sure enough, inlet filled with ash. What a ridiculous design. Nothing at all to prevent ash entry. No angled-down-overhang or anything. And if it needs constant maintanence, there should be a different fastening system, or at least some anti-sieze on the bolts.

Cover back on with gasket cement spooged into gap and anti-sieze on the bolt. Fired it back up, intake lever at approx 15-20% position and went out to eat, and there's ash now instead of charcoal! Hoped it would be warmer now, but nope, still same old weak output... and four 4 inch logs nearly burnt out...But at least now I can keep adding fresh wood to keep it blazing. I have a feeling I'll be back to relighting morning fires again, but better to have a little bit of ash and relight, than a bunch of charcoal and coals taking up so much volume.

Overall, I'm still an unsatisfied Jotul 450 owner. The upper secodary "plate" is already falling apart after two years. The first week I tried to remove the front face of the firebox, (can't remember why now) and the first (of four) bolts snapped upon removal attempt...decided not to continue with that. Weak heat output and very short burn time even with intake down almost closed. Terrible rattling of the fan unit no matter how I shim and shift and reposition fan/ashlip. And now prone to plugging....man I sure do miss the powerhouse of a stove that was removed for this thing.

 

[Stihl Burning]

Cityevader:
I found when I removed the bubble that the edge by the top wasn't really sealed well because the metal didn't mate properly, and thought I was on to something, but no. I have my stove running up to 750+ and yet it barely feels hot standing in front of it. As for the "block off plate" don't have one, the stove is fully jacketed (to channel the fan air), and my chimney runs through the garage, and is not even barely a degree warmer. With my Elmira the chimney was warming the garage and still cooking me out of the house. Also with the Elmira, I always had the nearby basement window cracked an 1/2", but can't afford to dilute my heat that much. Also this stove ain't quite "miserly" on the wood, it will go through three splits in about three hours. I wouldn't recomend a Jotul 450 to anybody. Maybe these guys who think their stove is so great, never really owned anything better. I'm sure if you never drove a Viper, you may think a Toyota Celica is "Freaking FAST", Anyway I'll suffer this winter, but I will be on the lookout for a large capacity "Kickass" Insert" P.S. if I'm getting 750 and up to 800 degrees, it aint my wood or method. I know Jotul is a great stove company, but maybe they just made very nice looking "LEMON". Merry Christmas, Happy New Year!

 

[oconnor]

My C450 heats by whole house on 6 12" across X 16" long logs a day - my house is a 1200 sqft 75 year old 2 storey with recent windows and insulation - not new, but not leaky either,

Stihl Burning - I see you still aren't getting the heat from the wood into your house. Bottom line is that the wood has the heat in it, but it isn't staying in your house - I'm thinking you might want to try a block off plate. If you are getting 750F from the stove, then you are getting the heat from the wood. The jacket around the stove is just there to provide ducting for the blower, it won't stop convective loss up the chimney.

If you have convective air rising up your flue and escaping into the atmosphere, you are producing the heat, just not getting to enjoy it. There aren't many folks I've read yet on the forums that find that the Kennebec doesn't work well - most agree that it doesn't give long burns, but we all agree that we get good heat out of a pound of wood when we use it. My guess is that your flue is less sealed at the top than some, and you are getting the loss there. I can't dispute that the Elmira gave more heat - My old 1976 Ford F100 with a 390 big block had more power than my last 1/4 ton truck, but if I stood behind it, I smelled like unburnt gas. You can't compare a 1/2 ton to a 1/4 ton - that is what you have between the Elmira and the Kennebec.

Try this simple test to see what you think - take the surround off, run the stove to 750F and see what kind of a draw you have around the liner where it passes thru the damper. Also, see what kind of circulation and heat improvement you get in the room.

I think that this insert (others too probably) traps a lot of radiant heat behind that Cast surround.I think that if the jacket had more airspace along the top, and had an increasing slope as it ran from back to front along the top, we would get even more heat from these units.

Please don't take me as some kind of Jotul extremist - I just hate seeing one fellow get results that are way less than what I see others reporting. The next worse thing to buying something expensive and not getting the expected result is to see someone else do the same, and get results that are worse than yours.

Hopefully we can get this thing working better for you. That would be my Christmas wish for you.

Merry Christmas

 

[Stihl Burning]

Brent: I'm not some Jotul "disgruntled owner" I'm an Interprovincial Millwright for a good part of 30 years. I always fix my own cars, (except for trani rebuilds) motorcycles, chainsaws, fridge, AC etc. The woodstove ain't too complex. I have run the stove without the surround, and stuck my hand in there, and it wasn't exactly hard to keep it there. My liner is sealed and insulated at the top. I'm trying to get my head around the idea that I can lose so much heat up the flue, and NOT feel warm brick in my garage 6 feet above the insert. If you really think about it, there are others who are NOT that impressed with this insert, other than me. I just know that with the Elmira, I could get the upstairs 75 to 78 degrees F on a 0 celcius day. The Jotul struggles to do better than 68F. There are numbers not imagination. The room the stove is actually in is 12 x 24 feet and even that room is not getting "cooked out". Again no offence, Merry Christmas, Mike.

 

[Rudyjr]

There has to be some logical reason for what you are experiencing. I have just completed the first week with my c450 and you are right it is not really that complex. My stove is installed in my basement rec-room at the far end of my house. The house is a 1700 sf all brick ranch. The fireplace is an all masonry unit with another fireplace above it on the first foor.The chimney is brick and exposed to the weather on three sides. When I installed this stove I was unable to insulate the liner because of two offsets in the chimney. I instead insulated and installed a block off plate above the stove and the liner under the chimney cap before I siliconed them in place. I heated with an old airtight stove in the 70's and 80's and I can tell you that this stove puts out very comparable heat and uses far less wood. I feel that if I had not taken the time to install a block off plate that I would be fighting a losing battle trying to overcome the heat loss to the exterior mass of masonry in the chimney. The low the last two nights where I live was in the 20's and this stove kept the house in the 67-68 range all night on three splits. This is with the stove located at one end and the open stair well at the other. The fan was still on at 7:30 am and I was able to restart a fire with the coals. I am not some kind of Jotul fanatic but I think this unit or any insert unit needs some special attention when installed to get the most from it.

 

[begreen]

I peeked into the chimney pipe, approx 3 feet extending above masonry, and looks like 1/4 to 3/8 of creosote... 2 years buildup with no cleaning yet.
Vacuumed out the primary ports from inside the stove tonight....mild improvement...but still no white-hot coals near the inlet...rather a slow yellow burn like it's starving for air.
Will try to see if any spiderwebs in the outside air inlet.

So this is just a stubbed in flue and not a full liner? What's the dimension of the chimney flue tiles? This could be the source of poor draft. I'm willing to bet the insert is fine, but the stove is only half of the system. The flue is equally important. If this stove is dumping into a large flue it's losing draft. With the more moderate temps in CA draft is already going to be a bit lower. Add a big change in pipe diameter and draft can drop off dramatically.

BTW, the place you want to check for creosote build up is up at the top of the chimney. When was that last done?

 

[cityevader]

I peeked into the chimney pipe, approx 3 feet extending above masonry, and looks like 1/4 to 3/8 of creosote... 2 years buildup with no cleaning yet.
Vacuumed out the primary ports from inside the stove tonight....mild improvement...but still no white-hot coals near the inlet...rather a slow yellow burn like it's starving for air.
Will try to see if any spiderwebs in the outside air inlet.

So this is just a stubbed in flue and not a full liner? What's the dimension of the chimney flue tiles? This could be the source of poor draft. I'm willing to bet the insert is fine, but the stove is only half of the system. The flue is equally important.

BTW, the place you want to check for creosote build up is up at the top of the chimney. When was that last done?

Approx 18ft of double wall inside masonry chimney, with last 3ft or so sticking above existing chimney, which is where I had peeked in throught the spark arrestor screen. Checked a couple days ago.

 

[begreen]

OK, I lose that bet. The description had me off on a hopeful tangent. Crap, I was hoping to see you burning hot tonight. Have you tried burning without the cap for a day?

Also, you mentioned earlier a secondary problem. Can you post a picture of the issue and describe what is wrong?

 

[Stihl Burning]

Rudyjr: The location and set up of your stove is (layout of your house) exactly as mine, but my house is about 1200 sq ft on one floor. I for sure use less wood, and one nieghbor thought something happened to me,as he could see or smell any wood burning this year. But I think with it putting out 750 degrees, shouldn't it at least "cook" that one room. I'll probably trie a "block off plate" when I can, but this would be some "strange science", that a "block off plate" when installed, will make an almost "night and day" difference, and in the meantime, if that much heat is being dissapated to the chimney masonary,(inside the garage) How can I NOT feel it. Cheers.

 

[Rudyjr]

Stihl Burning, I am at a loss also as to why you do not feel heat in the garage, but I am heating almost 1700 feet on one floor. The only difference from what you are telling me is no block off plate correct? I know that I had always in the past had a hard time with getting this fireplace to draw when starting a fire. This is no longer the case with the stove, liner, etc.., When I had my chimney cleaned about three weeks ago the sweep commented on how cold it was when we took the glass doors down and how much of a down draft there was. He asked me what I planned to do when I installed the liner. He is a certified sweep and installer and he said that it sounded like a good plan to him, and that most of the guys around our area just packed insulation around the pipe in the damper area. I told him I did not like the idea of insulation without something holding it in place and he agreed. It definitely seems to work well.