Burning Tragedy

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restorer

restorer

New Member
Aug 16, 2006
831
Salt Lake City, Utah
Well folks, hell hath hit Utah. We have a wildfire less than a day old. The estimates are it has burned 140,000 acres. No that's not a misprint, the fireline on one side is over 80 miles long. Two Interstates were closed I 15 for almost a hundred miles and I 70 for thirty. The traffic is diverted on a secondary road paralell, but about fifty miles apart. Only one place has been evacuated an historic Fort, Cove Fort. and the services around. There have been structure destroyed, and some loss of life, but it's just getting started. We may have several rural communities displaced before this is over.

The land is mostly farm land, and pasture where developed and lots of BLM and forest service land that is Juniper, cedar, scrub oak. The smoke plumes are over 200 miles long.

This had already exceeded the largest fire on record by almost 50,000 acres.


To the Moderators, if you need to put this somewhere else, OK, didn't have a clue where to put it, we don't have a forum called tragic.
 
Webmaster said:
Well, it's wood fire related!

Is this the result, as you seem to mention, of having certain types of land developed in ways they should not have been? Or is it part of the natural cycle out there?
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The fire was probably natural caused. We are having statewide thermal storms that cause little rain but lots of lightning. The cause has not been established, but I would say it's the cause. The land is semi-arid, range land with low forestation, but there are lots of farms that grow hay and some field corn, wheat and rye. All grass like now. The fire is simply racing. The sad part is, thousands are losing their livelyhood. There is a power plant in the middle, that is off line, and may be destroyed, there are coal mines and salt mines in the path and it's moving to more populated areas.

We are in the all time driest period I can think of. The area affected has an annual rainfall of less than 10 inches. And is parched. The water reserves are so low they can't irrigate.

This is the same as the fire storms of history. We lost three folk last week from a fire moving at 70 to 100 mph over a hill and into a hay farm. A small boy survived and his dad and grandad passed with another man. I remember reading about the Plains in fire from horizon to horizon. This is the same kind of fire. Last weeks was in the East and this is in the South Central part of the state.

When the damage is totalled it will be out of site.
 
Well, an update, as of 1:00 pm we're over 160,000 acres burned and no containment in site. I'm 150-200 miles north of the fire and the sky is filled with smoke, light this morning, but growing slowly thicker and darker. I roughly guess we've burned up about 250 to 300 square miles so far this Summer. Guess no juniper burls for sale this year. We are supposed to get an update from the Fire Information source about now, nothing yet. Sad thing is, lots of people get licenses to cut dead standing and diseased trees on BLM. They cut it for this season, as it's already dry. The lodgepole pine infected by the pine bark beetle is a very efficient burner and dry over three years now, all gone. Folks will have to travel and extra two hundred miles round trip to get their wood. Sure hurts the little guy.

Us pellet heads are not as nearly desperate. Have some friends who depend on the dead stand each year, gues I will work something out with a few arborists to see if I can get them some help.
 
This post is two hours after the last. Latest is the fire has scorched over 250,000 acres. I watched on the news 80-100 year old cedars turned into matches and disappear in 15-20 seconds. The fire is fueled with 30 mph winds and it's own generated fire storm. Interstate was open for a few hours, but is closed again. It's moving towards towns, now, but still no evacuation orders.
 
Thoughts and prayers go out to the folks out there...

I lived in Colorado (front range) for four years and have friends out there. While there is some distance between CO and Utah...I "know the territory well" as they are both very similiar. Unless one has visited the area...you can't imagine the wide open space with "tinder dry fuel". You would think (in the 21st century) the BLM would "have a better handle on things" after the last 10 or 15 years having seen some "rather tragic fires" but...

I take it the "years long drought" has given up its' grip out there...damn shame.

Unfortunately, there is no "mutual aid" plans in place for such large "wild fires", again, a shame.

Maybe there will be an "unforseen miracle from above" with the skies letting loose some desperately needed rainfall...or at the very least for the winds to drop back a bit...

As big as it sounds...the effort of man is no match.
 
This is a similar scale to a volcano. The pollution from this is probably similar to all US EPA wood stoves for 10 years or more. This is the kind of stuff that makes me just shake my head and wonder what the folks at BI must be thinking.
 
Trying to think of a positive side to this tragedy.........
Will all those smoke particles go into the atmosphere and create a cooling effect in the long term? Due to their blocking/filtering effect?
 
The fire is at over 300,000 acres, some 475 plus square miles. It was compared with the total land area of New York City on the news this morning. It's still about 120 miles south of me, but the smoke is hazing up the sky. our PM2.5 levels are as high as winter average, but the Ozone level is off the charts, that translates to very unhealthy air. We have 200 plus fire fighters they are bringing in the hardware as fast as they can. There are tankers and helicopters I think, three of each. The freeway is closed again. There are about 300 homes in the path right now this is a very rural area. Sage, scrub oak, juniper are the main fuel, the accelerant is "cheet"
grass, a non native weed that grows fast and dies early in the season. They are worried about afternoon winds, so they are trying a back burn it's about sixty miles from any dense communities, but it's heading towards cabins and summer homes.

There is no containment, except keeping it on the West side of I 15. except for a few jumps.

Hog:
I guess the silver lining has to be the removal of the "cheet" grass, it will not repopulate after the fire, and the fact the dead stand and general brush will be gone. Cedars and Junipers are pretty tough so they will come back quickly. I guess the pinions are gone, and I am not sure about their regrowth. They may be like the Lodgepole pine that get a strong stimulation to propagate from a fire.
 
Not much change from the last post. The fire management team is trying to limit the movement North and East. We are the number 2 priority nationally so we should get good resources. They are staging on the north side of the fire and seems like fire teams are arriving constantly. No real "hard data" that is new to report, except we have extreme unhealthy air for the entire front (about 120 mile stretch up the Wasatch front).
 
Warren said:
This is a similar scale to a volcano. The pollution from this is probably similar to all US EPA wood stoves for 10 years or more. This is the kind of stuff that makes me just shake my head and wonder what the folks at BI must be thinking.
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no S*%#!Makes a few grams of particulate per hour seem totally irrelevant. And Unc, I know this isn't yet effecting you directly and personally, but I'm still thinking of you and your community. Hope it gets better.
 
jpl1nh said:
Warren said:
This is a similar scale to a volcano. The pollution from this is probably similar to all US EPA wood stoves for 10 years or more. This is the kind of stuff that makes me just shake my head and wonder what the folks at BI must be thinking.
Click to expand...
no S*%#!Makes a few grams of particulate per hour seem totally irrelevant. And Unc, I know this isn't yet effecting you directly and personally, but I'm still thinking of you and your community. Hope it gets better.
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Thanks to all for the kind words, but it is affecting us. The air is gray and the particulate level of PM2.5 according the the Health Department this afternoon is the worst it has been in twenty five years for this time of year. We are a red stage condition. Outdoor exercise is not recommended, children and seniors are recommended to curtail any outdoor activity. Persons with asthma are very affected and almost everyone can feel the effects, burning eyes, raw scratchy throat, tightness in the chest. Trouble is the fire is moving this way. We won't burn, but there are some small towns that are threatened. Best guess is to stop it in ten days, worst case if we get more winds it might be three weeks or more.

The Feds have budgeted about $12 million, plus state and local communities. That, of course, is the starting budget. Remember, the fighters can sleep on the fire line if necessary, but actually live in a tent city, picture a baseball field filled with camping tents, no hotel rooms, but they have a caterer (mess kitchen) that serves over three hundred workers meals twenty-four hours a day. And these are real working people, not a celebrity fair.
 
Sounds pretty bad Rich. If it's any consolation, we survived New Dehli where this was pretty much the norm for the winter.
 
Fire has burned over 311,000 acres, I think that's about 479 square miles. Winds were calm and some containment gained. There are now 400 fighting and a couple of hundred more on the way. They are really concentrating on stopping it from jumping the freeway and a town about three miles from the origin. Because of the way the fire burned, there are hundred of hot spots with substantial fuel in islands surrounded with black char. The country is pretty much used for ranching. Open range and irrigated hay. The pastures are gone and the hay isn't even tall enough to call stubble. It will be months before the loss is known, but there will be tens of thousands of head of beef gone. Figure each is worth $1,000. Air was a little better today, there was probably less than a thousand acres burning, my guess, but they are worried about a storm tomorrow, that could whip it up bigger than ever. Not looking good, even when they are throwing around a 10% containment figure.
 
My thoughts are with you UR. Hope you guys make it through OK - that is a lot of fire there...

-keep safe
 
This evening the fire has burned 340,000 acres. It has been contained by 30%. There are over 400 on the line and another two hundred on the way. There are afternoon and evening thunder showers, usually virga(?) rain that evaporated before hitting the ground. If it does hit the ground, very good, but the increased humidity is great also. Besides they temp has dropped twenty degrees.

This is the number two priority fire nationally, the number one is in Utah also. It's newer and smaller,. but scarer. This one is the Mathis fire near Price, Utah. Size is unknown, but the concern is it's threatening the Aberdeen Coal mine, if it reaches the mine, cost of electricity in the Western States will skyrocket. A shutdown will be a bump, a fire involving the surface of the mine will be a mountain, if it catches the reserve on fire, good by air conditioning in Southern California. This mine is a major supplier of coal for several locations in the West.

By tomorrow at this time we will have some idea of the future.
 
Unc, I saw on our local news that NH's got a squad of firefighters all ready to go to help out with the Utah fire. Sounds like living hell out there. Hope any ground fire moving over the coal areas goes by quickly enough to prevent ignition of the coal! That virga (your spelling is correct, virga doesn't quite make it down, viagra gets it up) is a friggin tease in your area. You see the rain and it just ain't makin it to the ground. Kind of like a mirage. It's absolutely not a good scene out there.
 
Jpl:
Thanks for the thoughts. I should have explained. During the Summer we are quite used to virga. Makes you feel sticky, but you never get wet. The biggest concern is the air movement. It generates huge clouds and lots of electricity. I'm 120 miles from the fire and there have been thunder rumbling for the last hour. That guarantees we will torch up again. Lightning strikes are measured in hundreds per minute or mile.

We already have at least two fires in the region they can not fight. They are in terrain too dangerous for the best fighters. Glad to hear you are sending help. We got a type one crew from Alaska today.

For those of you who don't have much experience with fire that is out of control, a few years ago some of the best in the world got on the wrong side of the fire and nine (I think) died in Colorado. When Yellowstone burned I watched a hundred year old cabin burn to the ground in 15 minutes. For the fighters it is sort of like us sticking our heads in the stove to check the fire. Some wear suits of mylar to keep the temperature down to 130 degrees. Every fighter carries gear to handle a flashover. If the fire comes back on them they can protect themselves given enough warning.

The livestock on this land didn't have that equipment. It either killed them outright, or burned them. There is livestock with burned hooves, and scorched eyes that have been found. For the ranchers it truly is hell.

Next week I may take a tent and sleeping bag and do a week of tending calves who can't walk with burnt hooves. The tragedy is not a part of most peoples reality. Three years ago friends in Idaho had fire come to within 30 feet of their home and they were dumping 3,0000 gallons per hour of water on their "yard" to stop it. The ten acre orchard was gone, and two thousand acres of corn were gone.

I think statewide we are about 550 to 600 square miles of burnt dust. Rural areas, but some of these families have been here for over a hundred years.

Well, personally I'll watch the news at ten, and check in at two and get the updates at 5. Hopefully it will all be positive.
 
I looked over the last post and realized I skimmed over a very important issue. The Mathis fire is teasing the coal mines (2) and a field of Natural Gas wells, but the real concern is the Aberdeen mine, it vents 11 million cubic feet of methane every day. If they lose power that sits in the mines, increasing the chances of explosions, if the fire goes over the vents and ignites them, well it will be easily seen from space. The heat will go up a thousand degrees in the area. They are desperately trying to keep Mathis away from that area.

The Milford is now at about 350-360,000 acres. Back burns are working and safety breaks have been effective, but not 100%, they say they have turned the edge, but no date for containment, yet. Tenth straight day of Red Air Quality.

For those of us spatial confused, the fire is about 55-60 miles by 40 miles. Hope things stay within the current perimeters.
 
Has there been any hopeful signs on this fire in the last day or so?

And how does this compare to the Yellowstone Park fires of a few decades ago? I rememebr visiting Yellowstone maybe ten or 15 years ago after those fires, and the burn remains were still very visible near the Park Lodge by Old faithful.

Hope things take aturn for the better soon.

BTB
 
BTB said:
Has there been any hopeful signs on this fire in the last day or so?

And how does this compare to the Yellowstone Park fires of a few decades ago? I rememebr visiting Yellowstone maybe ten or 15 years ago after those fires, and the burn remains were still very visible near the Park Lodge by Old faithful.

Hope things take aturn for the better soon.

BTB
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BTB:

If you are referring to the 1988 fire in Yellowstone, we're probably not going to be as big. But the damage is far worse. Looks like there will be from 3-6 million pounds of beef not reaching the market from the loss in the fire. That's current herds, not counting the calves and mother stock that will affect years into the future. The land affected is free range land, some think not to well managed by the BLM, the larger foliage, cedars and juniper and pinion will take at least twenty years to recover, the grass lands maybe two years, they are starting replanting now. If the cheet grass is too firmly established, it will choke everything else out. That is a true worry.

They have better control with about 40% containment, back burns worked well, they say. If weather cooperates it may be out by the 17th. As I said earlier, they are replanting as I speak. However, the economic damage to two rural counties can't even start to be measured. I have a friend who is a real cowboy, I can't even call him for fear of hearing the despair in his voice. Brings a whole new meaning to "A grown man crying."
 
I've followed this close, it really is a social, famililial, and economic tragedy. Rich is my bud, lets me share his HS-ISP, sweet skype connection. I feel the pain. Those folk are getting their water stolen by Las Vegas, and their livelihood by Mother nature. I think he's going to do something personal this week, but that's his story. For those of you in comfortable jobs and comfortable cities, what would you do if all industry was gone in your community? What would you do if hubby worked at the feed store and you worked at the Diary Queen and you learned that your customers will have for the next two or three years no money to buy your product or services. Your brother works at the local gas station and no one has money to buy highway fuel let alone farm fuel. You have a brother who is the manager at the grocery store and he has no customers, but the food coop, or community services can't fill the demand. We produce a lot of cattle feed in my area, Monday I'm on the road. Even ten percent of the crops he may guarantee the survival of some of those farms, they can't pay $200 a ton to keep the breeding stock. It's sort of like dropping an "A" bomb on central Utah. It is a waste land.

Imagine for a moment Boston burned to the ground. That fire is almost 600 square miles. Equate your loss to theirs. They can't recover without rebirth. The land, the livestock, etc. So there are fewer people there, but it is really a swipe at a very important part of America.

May not mean anything to the "Coasties", so often referred to here, but they will make it. We got burned over twelve years ago, but I have the same tough neighbors, and we never apologize. Come by UR's neighborhood and see what's there in three years.
 
Thanks all for the kind responses. As of an hour ago my trip is off. Seems what I would like to do to help may not be needed. More importantly, my friends know I can't handle what needs to be done the next week or so. So, I may take another tact. May take a trip as far as Baker, Oregon. Will see.

Good news, the Milford Flats fire is 85% contained. Estimate is 660,000 acres. Still have some major hot spots, but by Tuesday they say it will be under control. They are shifting resources to other fires.

The Mathis fire is contained, with a perimeter protecting the coal mines and gas wells. Things will be wrapped up there in three days estimate.

This will be my last post for a while to this thread, I will let those that have followed it know the economic impact. Tough Old Buzzards down there will survive, but they are very proud, and have a hard time accepting charity. They won't turn down hay deliveries from those more fortunate this season. I will be back with updates.
 
Glad to hear things may be taking a turn for the better. I know here in Oregon the weather is a lot cooler and there is some rain in the forecast for mid-week this week. Hopefully, that weather system coming off the Pacific is big enough to moderate not just the Pacific NW but the adjacent states too, just long enough they can really get things under control.

BTB
 
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