Bypass damper or not - newbie

[furia]

We currently have an older Timberline stove which is easy to use but is not at all efficient. We are going to replace this stove with a new efficient non-catalytic stove.

Our Timber line has a 6" rear exit flue that enters the wall at about 27" (top of pipe) We have a 25' chimney with a clay flue liner. All are in good condition. We don't want to change this set up so this set up limits us to certain rear exit stoves.

We initially looked at soapstone stoves (specifically Hearthstone Phoenix and Heritage). We then changed tacks. Recently, we have been looking at the VC Encore and the Lopi Leyden. We concentrated on these stoves because they both had bypass dampers. We were told that the bypass damper would be easier to use with a rear exit and clay liner (much more so than the Phoenix).

The reviews of the VC Encore on hearth.com are less than stellar. The one review of the Leyden is promising. Still, this stove is so new I am not sure what to think. Now, almost every review of the Phoenix is positive. And it is a gorgeous stove. Also, it seems to me the glass would stay cleaner on stoves that don't have their secondary burn at the back of the stove.

Does it take longer to stabilize the Phoenix than it would take to stabilize a stove with a bypass damper such as the Leyden? It takes 30-60 minutes to stabilize our Timberline. If the stoves are similar to use in our situation we would like to get the Phoenix or Heritage just on looks (plus unobstructed glass).

I apologize if this is the wrong place to post beginner questions

BTW - We live in a 2000 ft^2 house. The house basically has two zones. One zone (about 1200 ft^2) is heated easily with forced air. The other half encompasses a kitchen/dining area that opens into a south facing sun room/solarium with an 18' ceiling and a loft. This area has a stone floor and quilted blinds. On sunny days in the dead of winter this area is very comfortable. But, on cloudy days and in the evening (even with blinds) this area needs a space heater (stove). So, we like to keep a fire from about 7pm to 8:00 am. Basically, we would like to make a fire when we get home and have heat for 12-14 hours. For our Timberline that is a lot of wood and crap in the atmosphere

thanks, in advance, for the help

ed...

 

[begreen]

Also take a look at the Quadrafire Isle Royale and the Harman Oakwood. They are also top-loaders with a bypass damper. The Isle Royale has two different leg kits possible to set the heigth.

 

[elkimmeg]

Whether you buy a Lopi Leyden, Harman Oakwood ,or Vermomt castings Encore,They all have simmilar opperations and burn using a rear secondary combustion chamber
Essentially there are the same stove. I have to ack why not tried and trus Cat combustor thechnolgy one that has gives years of quality preformance. I would not ask if I was not totally satisfied with mine. these newer stoves a are more draft critile than the Cat combustor stoves to run them right you need optimal draft conditions. Just go back and read the post o the last two weeks.
All owners who have bought this newer technology wishes they had bought the cat stove instead I would be looking at the Defiantc cat for your heating area

 

[Gooserider]

BTW - We live in a 2000 ft^2 house. The house basically has two zones. One zone (about 1200 ft^2) is heated easily with forced air. The other half encompasses a kitchen/dining area that opens into a south facing sun room/solarium with an 18' ceiling and a loft. This area has a stone floor and quilted blinds. On sunny days in the dead of winter this area is very comfortable. But, on cloudy days and in the evening (even with blinds) this area needs a space heater (stove). So, we like to keep a fire from about 7pm to 8:00 am. Basically, we would like to make a fire when we get home and have heat for 12-14 hours. For our Timberline that is a lot of wood and crap in the atmosphere

thanks, in advance, for the help

ed...

Given the use pattern that you are describing, I'm not sure a soapstone stove would work well for you. The general pattern I've seen people mentioning on the forums is that the soapstone stoves take longer to heat up, but are great once they've been going for a while. This makes a soapstone great for folks that burn 24/7 but not for those that only burn part time and want fairly quick heat when they light the stove. To me, it sounds like you would be more the latter "part-time burn" category, which may make you better off with a steel or cast iron stove.

Gooserider

 

[furia]

Given the use pattern that you are describing, I'm not sure a soapstone stove would work well for you. The general pattern I've seen people mentioning on the forums is that the soapstone stoves take longer to heat up, but are great once they've been going for a while. This makes a soapstone great for folks that burn 24/7 but not for those that only burn part time and want fairly quick heat when they light the stove. To me, it sounds like you would be more the latter "part-time burn" category, which may make you better off with a steel or cast iron stove.

Gooserider

Weekends are when the stove would get the most use so that would be friday evening until Monday morning. Also mornings are more important than evenings. So the lasting heat is a good thing.

ed...

 

[Gooserider]

Given the use pattern that you are describing, I'm not sure a soapstone stove would work well for you. The general pattern I've seen people mentioning on the forums is that the soapstone stoves take longer to heat up, but are great once they've been going for a while. This makes a soapstone great for folks that burn 24/7 but not for those that only burn part time and want fairly quick heat when they light the stove. To me, it sounds like you would be more the latter "part-time burn" category, which may make you better off with a steel or cast iron stove.

Gooserider

Weekends are when the stove would get the most use so that would be friday evening until Monday morning. Also mornings are more important than evenings. So the lasting heat is a good thing.

ed...

No argument, I just wanted to be sure you had taken the useage into consideration.... Good luck with the new stove.

Gooserider

 

[Corie]

I like all the choices mentioned here.

I with the Leyden is definitely a promising stove, the Harman Oakwood also looks great, as does the Isle Royal. With the first two, you get the ceramic refractory combustion package at the rear of the stove. The Isle Royal is unique with its pivoting tubular above fire baffle system. Its slick.

I am a big fan of bypass gate stoves. I like having an extra level of control over the whole show and it certainly is nice to just be able to pop it open and really get the draft rolling. When I finally have a house, somewhere in it will be a catalytic stove, with top loading and a bypass gate. Of course, I can't say what brand because I don't know where I'll be working yet

 

[HarryBack]

Elk is right above, in that the seconday combustor stoves are more draft critical than the CAT stoves, but if youve got the draft they seem to work well. Nice glow from the afterburner, no smoke.....but to get this, youve gotta get the seconday combustor to around 1200 degrees.....if you cant do that with your nominal draft, these would be a poor choice.

 

[furia]

So - is that 1200 degrees for all secondary burners including top burn tubes or just the rear secondary burners like those in the Leyden and VC non-cat's.

One problem is noone sells catalytic stoves in my area, or at least they don't carry or reccomend them.

Well my chimeney appears to work well with our Timberline. Can I assume this means it has enough draw for modern stoves?

We are leaning towards soapstone. The Phoenix seems like a good compromise - front and rear are cast iron with soapstone on top and sides.

thanks for all the help.
ed...

 

[TMonter]

How easily does your stove draft at startup? IE do you ever get an inversion in the stove and cold air coming down the chimney?

 

[furia]

How easily does your stove draft at startup? IE do you ever get an inversion in the stove and cold air coming down the chimney?

It drafts pretty well at start up.

Here are some more particulars about our chimney. We have an internal masonry chimney with a clay tile flue liner (less than 8" square). The height is at least 24' We have a damper in the horizontal portion of the flue just before it infiltrates the wall. I usually use this damper with our Timberline. Damped down I maintain about 400 F with 5 18" long logs (~5 or 6") and a good bed of coals.

For what it is worth I just did a quick experiment. The outside temperature is now about 42 F. Our old stove is cold. It has not been used for a few days. I opened the damper and lit a loosely crumpled singe (two page) piece of newspaper. I left the doors open and all smoke went up the chimney. I closed the doors for a few seconds and opened them all was still going into the flue.

thanks,
ed...

 

[elkimmeg]

So - is that 1200 degrees for all secondary burners including top burn tubes or just the rear secondary burners like those in the Leyden and VC non-cat's.

One problem is noone sells catalytic stoves in my area, or at least they don't carry or reccomend them.

Well my chimeney appears to work well with our Timberline. Can I assume this means it has enough draw for modern stoves?

We are leaning towards soapstone. The Phoenix seems like a good compromise - front and rear are cast iron with soapstone on top and sides.

thanks for all the help.
ed...

At one time I was told the exact same info about the Cat stoves so I bought the non cat Resolute acclaim not a bad stove in fact a real good stove.

When everbody was purchasing pellet stove last year many were replacing older wood stoves. I'm doing a pellet stove inspection and pass this VC cat intrepid II sitting in the garage. so I saked what's up with the stove the owner says if I knew anyone that wants it tell them to come and take it away. A week goes by and I'm thinking about that stove and I call them and ask that weekend I picked it up I replaced my mid 80's plain jane plate steel stove in my familly room and gave it to a less fortunate familly eeven installed it for them I ddi a rebuild on the Intrepid II
including the replacement Cat combustor foirm stove combustor.com $59 and put it threw the paces. ths stove looked so little on my hearth and I have an outside masonry chimney block chimney. What if the stove did not preform? outside ma chimney block chimney and cat stove require th good drafts doom to fail right? A cold night fired it up my room temp was 50 degrees. First splits built a good bed of coals f so I loaded it about 3/4 full let it get going engaged the cat the stove leveled off at 550 griddle temps for over 5 hours the room now is 74 degrees Damn this stove is out preforming my two year old Resolute Acclaim in lenght of burn. Next I load it up and it burns a solid 6hours above 500 degrees griddle top temp damn this is good. It is easier that the Acclaim I could now set and forget and let the stove run on its own. I never dreamed one could do this the resolute I was always fiddling with the air and damper adding wood every 4 or 5 hours. I go outside with the cat engaged and no smoke no smoke damn this is good

So good I start wondering about my Resolute acclaim what if I can replace it witha cat Encore? well while doing inspection I spot one ina garage and ask about it it looks in good shape it was this lady's father stove used only 2 seasons 1999 stove $500 and its mine I rebiult the Resolute Acclaim sold it for $800 and went threw the Encore it was in teriffic shape. Now almost an entire burn season and it has delivered. I could have opurchased the Encore at the time of my resolute Acclaim purchase but was talked out of it by the dealer same old wives tales too had to opperate costly cat combustor replacement and more controls to work. What a bunch of BS. this is the easiest of 7 stoves I've had to opperate It will burn threw the night and have griddle temps 400 450 and decent bed of coals that all I have to do is stir the coal bed and add splits 10 minutes later engage the cat and for get controls for the next 6 to 8 hours maybe more.
This is the easiest most productive stove I ever had, dry wood is the key. I diss ngage the cat /damper open the smokeless top griddle place the splits in open the air up abit 10 minutes later
engage the damper and roll if I want 600 or 650 degrees 10 minutes later I adjust the primary air and forget it if the stove is 500 degtrrs or more upon reload right after the reload I can re engage the cat this is the same for both stoves more heat longer burns using less wood . did I mention how clean it burns? yes there is combustor maintance I shop vack it out and clean the stove at the end of the burn season takes less than 10 minutes. At mid season I clean the chimney s shop vac the stove ans shop vac the combustor. ITS rel easy to take the combustor out and ship vack it about 5 minutes or so thake more time to setup the shop vac than the cleaning and rplacement. nMe I like a technology that is time tested tried and true. The best stove I've ever owned I live in new England this is the first year t I have not used oil to augment heating my home. Infact I disconnected the wires to the zone valve so that my wife did not turn it on.

-18 widn chills the other night 74 in my familly room and my wife is taking off her sweatshirt Even shee admits the cat stoves deliver better than anything before. One thing Cat stoves do not do is w if into wild flames then they are not for you. more sedate red glow. not dancing flames. Bit with the open doors and fire screen option we can sip wine ans enjoy the open fire snuggled together on the couch. turn the light down and be memorized and a little more wine. So who says cat stoves suck? ones that never experience them?

 

[furia]

... stuff deleted....
-18 widn chills the other night 74 in my familly room and my wife is taking off her sweatshirt Even shee admits the cat stoves deliver better than anything before. One thing Cat stoves do not do is w if into wild flames then they are not for you. more sedate red glow. not dancing flames. Bit with the open doors and fire screen option we can sip wine ans enjoy the open fire snuggled together on the couch. turn the light down and be memorized and a little more wine. So who says cat stoves suck? ones that never experience them?

This is a great account of CAT stoves. Were these VC stoves pre-Majestic? The reason I ask is our best bet for a CAT stove would be a VC. We have a VC dealer but (as I mentioned previously) they don't carry or recommend CAT's. I have not read anything good about the new VC stoves (ones manufactured after they were acquired by Majestic)

thanks,
ed...

 

[elkimmeg]

Majestic acccquired VC about 1993 in1996 CFM accquired Majestic and VC my Encore was manufactured in 1999 during CFM ownership.
since then in 2004 CFM just about bankrupted the comapny the Largest share holders the Ontario Teasher association retirement account took control and removed all Former
CFM directors. At no point has the foundry and casting plane been off line manufacturing stoves I think today they are building them better than any time the passt 15 years
Particularlly the Cat stoves. The Cat Encore has just been re-certified till year 2011. A move to me, that indicates they plan to continue its production.

Along the way VC has refinde the Encome line. they have made it much easire to manitain by making access to the Cat combustor so easy no blots are required to be removed.
My 1999 Encore has these refinements I have worked of the earlier s Cat stoves and onw one of the first in my 20 year old Intrepid II. What makes it more appealing is after market combustors sell 50% less than OEM replacements and proform better. my Intrepit II combustor cost $59 last year and has a warranty of 7 years. replacement cost is less than $15 per year
It easilly makes up for producing more heat using less wood. and cleaner burning. Note I'm not suggesting Everburn technology stoves.
I am following the current post concerning this right now. I am suggesting a stove that I have personal experience using a thechnology that is time tested tried and true.

We have had epic cat vs non cat debates here these modern cats should not be confused with the earlier bad rap cat conversions attempts that did not work. Thses are designed to intergrate a separate secondary cat combustor chamber feed wit thermoatically comtrolled secondary air. this thermatically controled secondary air adjust the air flow to keep the long even temperature burn when the stove is hot air is reduced when the stove burns down lower more air in introduced to bring it back to temperature. It's not just the cat combustor but automaticall regulated secondary air control. Its as close to set and forget is a wood stove gets. Honestly once the stove levels out at say 500griddle top temps should I want the next 6 hours at 600 degrees I open the primary air between an 1/8 to 1/4 open set and forget. Naturally the hotter you run the stove the faster you go threw wood. But when i need heat I'll take an hour of reduced burn time to keep a home warm We just had 5 weeks of well bellow normal temps wind chills off the charts. Every night I still was able to maintain 68 degrees in the zone the stove was and if I lost a degree I was able to gain it back running the stove at 600 or 650 many times I would gan another degree or two. the interpid II is inanother zone in a large windowed familly room with 16' cathdral ceilings 4 sky lights and It can put any night I experienced so far in the 70;s inside. Bte Woodstock also manufactures Cat stoves and they are have a once in a life time sale

Blaze king is another manufacturer of Cat stoves

there are two ways to know when to close the damper to activate the cat combustor first of all developing a good bed of coals then watch the griddle top temps should n rise to above 500
inintially a wait a bit lom=nger to establish the fire and the bed of coals I may let it rise to 650 I then open the griddle top to comfirn a healthy coal bed and to confirm charring has occured to the wood. Once it engage it is set unless 10 minutes later I adjust the primary air to the stove top temps I desire. That's it till the next reload

 

[tradergordo]

sorry, double posted somehow

 

[tradergordo]

there are two ways to know when to close the damper to activate the cat combustor first of all developing a good bed of coals then watch the griddle top temps should n rise to above 500
inintially a wait a bit lom=nger to establish the fire and the bed of coals I may let it rise to 650 I then open the griddle top to comfirn a healthy coal bed and to confirm charring has occured to the wood. Once it engage it is set unless 10 minutes later I adjust the primary air to the stove top temps I desire. That's it till the next reload

If the new cats can light off at 400-500 degrees, why all the waiting around and establishing a nice coal bed, etc? Shouldn't it hit 500 from a dead cold start in about 10 minutes or less? Just trying to understand... because what you describe as how you operate your cat stove is pretty much exactly how I operate my non-cat stove, so I don't see what the advantage of the cat is? I do hope you will try the non-cat donor stove out to see how it compares. For what its worth, I've been keeping my house pretty much above 70 degrees all winter (albeit its been a mild winter in Pennsylvania, but still we've gone down to 3 degrees F and my house is about 2500 sq ft. Windchill doesn't matter when you aren't outside by the way). My bedrooms upstairs are usually about 75 degrees when I go to bed, and I turned the furnace thermostat off so no use of natural gas for heating.

p.s. I just took another look at the woodstock soapstone stoves. Their biggest model - even with this current "once in a lifetime" clearance sale, STILL costs about twice what I paid for my stove, it has a much smaller firebox, and it's only billed to heat "up to 1600 sq ft" (some say they understate its capacity - but that seems rediculous to me, why would anyone purposely make their product seem worse than it actually is?). At any rate, despite the sale, buying that stove still makes no sense (to me) even if aftermarket combustors can be had for just $85.

 

[elkimmeg]

yes I could engage the cat sooner but at first light off I'd just as soon wait 10 minutes longer call it error on the side of caution

As for wind chill I agree but I only used that term to show it was real windy and windy weather tends to suck the heat out of homes making the heating equipment work harder to maintain temps./. The routine is the same as you correctly pointed out the secondary combustion chamber be it holding a cat ot everburn is still about the same.
Im' a bit hesitant recomending Everburn stoves, in light of VC disclosing they turn glowing red. Till this is cleared up I have a problem with glowing red stoves.

 

[furia]

I just got off the phone with our local VC dealer (BTW a nice bunch of folks). They said they would be happy to order a catalytic Encore. The said they just made a decision to not stock or show the CAT's. So at this point our front runners in order are:

Hearthstone Phoenix
Vermont Castings Catalytic Encore
Lopi Leyden

ed...

 

[furia]

yes I could engage the cat sooner but at first light off I'd just as soon wait 10 minutes longer call it error on the side of caution

As for wind chill I agree but I only used that term to show it was real windy and windy weather tends to suck the heat out of homes making the heating equipment work harder to maintain temps./. The routine is the same as you correctly pointed out the secondary combustion chamber be it holding a cat ot everburn is still about the same.
Im' a bit hesitant recomending Everburn stoves, in light of VC disclosing they turn glowing red. Till this is cleared up I have a problem with glowing red stoves.

Elk,

Are you using an 8" flue or the 6" flue collar (down size)? And just to confirm your Cat Encore does not glow red

Does the glass stay pretty clean?

thanks,
ed...

 

[elkimmeg]

I ordered the optional 6" flue collar I can tell you my stove has gotten a bit away fom me but it has never glowed red What you might find real convient is smokless top laoding I also use the mitten racks and warming shelves my wife actually raises bread on the warming shelf and I dry my mittens hats ect and the open fir screen option I do not use often but nice to see a real fire

Glas stays pretty clean fly ash will haze it but it can be wiped off easilly. Nor dark soot unless you are burning w wet wood nbut the next decent fire usually burns that off

 

[Gooserider]

I ordered the optional 6" flue collar I can tell you my stove has gotten a bit away fom me but it has never glowed red What you might find real convient is smokless top laoding I also use the mitten racks and warming shelves my wife actually raises bread on the warming shelf and I dry my mittens hats ect and the open fir screen option I do not use often but nice to see a real fire

Glas stays pretty clean fly ash will haze it but it can be wiped off easilly. Nor dark soot unless you are burning w wet wood nbut the next decent fire usually burns that off

Naughty, Naughty... :coolmad: and you the safety expert... You shouldn't be using the screen AT ALL per the manual - "Note: When installed with the 6" flue collar, the Encore may not be operated with the front doors open." (Encore manual, p.5, bold print in Chimney Size section....)

Gooserider (Just giving you chit....)

 

[elkimmeg]

how do you know I did not swap to the other flue collar two bolts 7/16" nut an bingo instant swap Did I say whiuch stove I used the open scree option with? The Intrepid I also have the fire screen

 

[Gooserider]

how do you know I did not swap to the other flue collar two bolts 7/16" nut an bingo instant swap Did I say whiuch stove I used the open scree option with? The Intrepid I also have the fire screen

I don't, but somehow I don't think you'd swap out to get the 8" liner at the same time - that's a bit more work than just the two bolts you mentioned and I don't see how the screen could be approved if you had an 8" collar necking to a 6" liner if the 6" collar isn't OK (though the manual doesn't seem to say)

I was going by the way that all the other references were to the same stove - plus I couldn't resist the chance to yank your chain a bit...

Gooserider

 

[elkimmeg]

Goose I'm smilling the rest of any comments will be off line off forum

 

[furia]

Thanks for all the help!

We narrowed our choices down to the VC Encore cat. and the Hearthstone Phoenix. We are going to go with the Phoenix. The main drawback that I see for the Phoenix is loading. We may try to get shorter splits so we can load the stove perpendicular to the door.

Too bad Woodstock is only mail order in my area the Keystone looks like a nice stove.

ed...