CAD Drawing technique questions...

[Gooserider]

The GF is going to get the mortgage on the house paid off within the next few months, and we are planning to do some serious upgrades and mods at that time with the money that is no longer going to the mortgage co.

Part of what I'm doing to get ready for this is to develop a set of plans that shows what we already have, as precisely as possible... I am teaching myself CAD drafting, using QCAD, Professional Edition, on Linux if that matters... I'm getting fairly decent on it so that I can draw most stuff, albeit slowly, but I'm still trying to figure out a few techniques.

What I'm having to do is "reverse engineer" the house - I take measurements on inside walls, draw them, then try to guess what's behind the wallpaper to draw in the rest of the structure. I figure that if I'm doing it right, I should be able to get the structure down to within an inch or so, probably less. I just purchased a Bosch Laser "tape measure" so I know that I can make measurments accurate to 1/16" if I'm careful...

Walls seem pretty easy, 1/2" sheet rock, 3.5" wide studs, and then another layer of 1/2" sheet rock... What I haven't quite figured out is how to do doors and windows, just where does one measure from in order to get the opening in the right place, and how much material thickness does one allow for the frames, etc. I feel like if I can measure it, I can draw it, but I'm not sure how to do the measuring...

Gooserider

 

[Brian VT]

Windows and doors in architectural drawings are normally referenced from the center and then the size called out per the supplier model #. In the real world there is normally the rough opening, then @ 1/4" space for shims, then the jambs which are @ 1 1/8" thick. I hope that is the info you're asking for.

 

[Gooserider]

Windows and doors in architectural drawings are normally referenced from the center and then the size called out per the supplier model #. In the real world there is normally the rough opening, then @ 1/4" space for shims, then the jambs which are @ 1 1/8" thick. I hope that is the info you're asking for.

Yes, that helps a lot - It gives me the info I need to "reconstruct" the rough opening given that all I can measure is the actual inside of the frame and it's location w/ respect to the exposed wall surface... I've been reconstructing the inside walls assuming 1/2" thickness on the drywall, and 3.5" for the studs, which seems to be working out so far.

Gooserider

 

[peakbagger]

If you can find a library with a copy of Architectural Graphics Standards by Ramsey and Sleeper, it would probably help you out a lot. I expect once you see a copy, it might be worth trying to buy one used.

 

[Gooserider]

Thanks for the book suggestion, though when I go to look for it on Amazon or Alibris, it's a confusing one, as they seem to have multiple versions and editions of the same title and author :-S and its hard to tell which one I'm looking for. Even used, that book also looks VERY pricey, not sure I can justify it for a one shot project... I did find several other books listed as covering the same general area, many of which were MUCH less expensive, especially in the older editions.

I've been looking at "Building Construction Illustrated" and/or "Architectural Graphics" by Francis D K Ching; "Architectural Drafting & Design" by Alan Jefferis & David A. Madsen; or "Fundamentals of Building Construction: Materials and Methods" by Edward Allen & Joseph Iano. Any of those any good? Also how much of a difference does the edition make? I notice in the descriptions they talk a lot about updating to cover the latest codes, ADA standards, and so forth, but how much real difference is there? If it matters, the house I'm working on is about 30 years old, we generally give 1980 as the build date.

I'm running into an additional problem with my drawing, where the numbers aren't adding up in small amounts... I'm using one of those new laser rangefinder "tape measures" which gives me dimensions to a 16th of an inch... However I obviously can't do the ideal "center to center" measuring on a completed wall, so I have to deal with measuring between wall surfaces and making assumptions about the structure underneath....

I have been assuming 3.5" for the studs, and 1/2" for each layer of sheetrock, but I've started to get significant errors where if I draw a large room, then fill in the walls of the intruding closets, the amount of space I have left on the drawing doesn't match my measurements. The only place I can see where I can get an error is if the wall was thicker than I'd been assuming. Looking up sheetrock at Home Depot, I notice it comes in 1/2" or 5/8" thicknesses - and one place I measured it did look more like 5/8" - is there any standard for home construction as to what thickness I should be expecting them to use? (I did a trial using my same measurements and a 5/8" sheetrock thickness, and it did get rid of most of my error - what was left was inside the tolerance for the laser...)

Gooserider

 

[TreePapa]

...snip...
I'm running into an additional problem with my drawing, where the numbers aren't adding up in small amounts... I'm using one of those new laser rangefinder "tape measures" which gives me dimensions to a 16th of an inch... However I obviously can't do the ideal "center to center" measuring on a completed wall, so I have to deal with measuring between wall surfaces and making assumptions about the structure underneath....

I have been assuming 3.5" for the studs, and 1/2" for each layer of sheetrock, but I've started to get significant errors where if I draw a large room, then fill in the walls of the intruding closets, the amount of space I have left on the drawing doesn't match my measurements. The only place I can see where I can get an error is if the wall was thicker than I'd been assuming. Looking up sheetrock at Home Depot, I notice it comes in 1/2" or 5/8" thicknesses - and one place I measured it did look more like 5/8" - is there any standard for home construction as to what thickness I should be expecting them to use? (I did a trial using my same measurements and a 5/8" sheetrock thickness, and it did get rid of most of my error - what was left was inside the tolerance for the laser...)

Gooserider

When was the house built? Many recent homes use 5/8 drywall, for shear strength, fire resistance, and noise reduction (esp. Type X). Homes from the 60's and 70's typically used 1/2" and cheaper builders still use 1/2" where they can get away with it. Also, 2x4's are now 1.5x3.5, but used to be 1-5/8 x 3-5/8 and before that, 1-3/4 x 3-3/4 ... of course, a house that old prolly has plaster walls.

You should be able to check drywall thickness at switch and outlet boxes - unless you've sealed them all, of course. Also, check your walls for true. If you are trying to get gnat's ass precision, if your walls (or closets) are slightly out of true, it could throw you off.

Why are you trying for gnat's ass precision, though? It's very difficult to achieve for As-Built drawings. And even though drawings for new buildings might have gnat's ass precision, the actual building is likely to vary from that, within tolerances. The only place in common construction where you really get such precision, and have it carried through to the final product, is Shop Drawings (for stairways, windows, structural steel, and other components assembled offsite).

Measure as well as you can, and then make adjustments in your drawing to fit overall dimensions if necessary.

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[TreePapa]

I should have read your last post better. For 1980 construction, you could have 1/2", 5/8" or both for drywall.

You might also see if you can find examples of plans for homes from the period and area. You might find them archived online, but your bldg. dept. might also have them on microfiche. They should give you a good idea of typical construction.

On typical floor plans, doors and windows are drawn a little simpler than their actual construction. More detail is shown on the framing plans and details.

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[CarbonNeutral]

You may not want to change packages now you're involved, but the google free program, SketchUp is actually excellent for exterior modeling and interior design. Apparently you can run it under Linux using Wine but you have to watch for video card issues.

I was able to find my house on satellite images from google earth, import the images to use as a base, draw my house orienting it correctly in the land, view the house in 3D with the surrounding terrain correct (i.e. the hills that that the house sits on) and light the house with the sun oriented correctly by direction and elevation depending on time of year.

The sketchup for Dummies book is also an excellent way to learn the package, and revolves around creating house design plans.

It will not create material lists if you need that.

Good luck.

 

[Highbeam]

Framing and building is not exact. No need to be so accurate that you are trying to decide whether 1/2" or 5/8" sheetorck was used. That 1/8" can be burned up with wall texture, paint, and wall paper really easily. You also probably measured at the corner of the room where extra drywall mud was used on top of the sheetrock to bed the tape.

 

[Tarmsolo60]

Even slightly out of square rooms will mess up some measurements. Get everything as close as possible without too much fuss and make it work while renovating.

 

[Gooserider]

I'm not going totally nuts about the accuracy, though it's neat that I CAN push it to that close (I really like that laser, not sure I'll ever go back to using a tape for anything over a couple of feet!) However I've always been taught that errors are cumulative, and that any reasonable effort to reduce them is good...

As one example, the back third of the house has my office, a bathrooom and the GF's office in a row, along with some closets, and so forth. Working with the 4.5" wall thickness assumption (two layers of 1/2" rock, plus 3.5" studs) I had been drawing one room at a time, building across. Last night I also took a measurement (on the about 6 square inches where I could) from the outside wall of my office to the outside wall of her office - over 1.25" difference! Using the 4.75" wall assumption (5/8" sheet rock) got rid of most of the difference.

I'm quite aware that I will probably find differences from the drawings once I start building, but I figure that making them as close as I can to what's there will help... At least we are now starting to get some thawing, so maybe I can start trying to get some outside measurments as well, figure out what is most likely to be on the outside of the studs...

We have this vertical shiplap siding on the outside, that I'm calling as 3/4". I'm guessing there is some sort of plywood sheathing under it, that I hope won't be too rotten, but not sure what thickness...

(One of the renovations planned is to replace the siding, I'm strongly inclined towards good quality vinyl, and against anything wood based. The other question is what I should put under it in order to ensure maximal added wind sealing and increased R-value...)

Gooserider

 

[TreePapa]

We have this vertical shiplap siding on the outside, that I'm calling as 3/4". I'm guessing there is some sort of plywood sheathing under it, that I hope won't be too rotten, but not sure what thickness...

(One of the renovations planned is to replace the siding, I'm strongly inclined towards good quality vinyl, and against anything wood based. The other question is what I should put under it in order to ensure maximal added wind sealing and increased R-value...)

Gooserider

Check out Fiber Cement siding (HardiPlank)

http://www.jhreside.com/main/index.pl?p=perils.html&adId=20&gclid=CMv6lLOG2pgCFR2dnAodyl2HdA

We used it on an addition a few years back and it's great stuff. Just be sure to wear your mask when cutting. It's fire resistant (vinyl melts and releases toxic fumes), stable, takes paint really nicely (and holds it for much longer than wood) and looks a lot nicer than vinyl. The wood product part of it is basically mill waste. Asthetically, I like real wood but HardiPlank is more practical and usually less expensive, plus it doesn't involve cutting down wood for it's own sake. Personall, I distain vinyl siding - it always looks fake. HardiPlank looks like wood - from a distance anyway. Check around for prices. I found the best price at Home Dope, but only for the in-stock width (I think it was six-inch, pre-primed). Also, HomeDope delivered and unloaded w/ a fork lift for a reasonable charge. The local bulding supplier could only deliver with a roll-off truck - okay (maybe) for lumber, but not for FC siding. We put 1/2" CDX plywood sheathing under the siding on the whole addition, w/ plain "building paper" (the black stuff) betwen it and the siding. We were going for shear strength (this is earthquake country) rather than moisture control, and I actually selected the plain building paper as opposed to the fancier house wrap 'cuz it "breaths" better.

BTW, I'm sorry if I was a little strong regarding the measurements. Have fun with your drawings.

Peace,
- Sequoia

 

[Gooserider]

Part of the problem we see with the Hardiplank is that you mention that evil word "paint"! The GF and I are both very much into the lowering needed maintainance side of things, and that is one of the big appeals of vinyl far as we are concerned... Put it up and mostly don't worry about it afterwards... We also feel that there are some of the better vinyls that look really nice, we had one house near us that put up some that the GF wouldn't have thought was vinyl except that she saw it going up... (I agree the low end stuff does look a bit tacky)

Seems to me that it all depends on what sort of look you want. The vertical shiplap we have now looks nice (from a distance, not so good when you get close enough to see how warped and rotted it is) but far as I'm concerned they could have sided the house with window screening for all the weather protection it gives - I dread what I'm afraid we might find once we start stripping the house.

There is some historical stuff that says we are due for a big earthquake one of these centuries, but this is generally not considered quake country, so that hasn't been a big concern (We aren't terribly far from Mt. Nashoba, which supposedly is Indian for "Mountain that shakes") Our big concern (at least as far as I'm involved) is trying to improve our weatherproofing / insulation and lower the amount of future upkeep required...

Gooserider

 

[orangecrushcj7]

Hardisiding can come prefinished too, so no need to paint. I used it on my own house. It is also insect proof too. It also has a higher resistence to heat transfer of any cladding material, because it is made of cement. Seriously though. I am an architect at an architectural and construction management firm (design build). The need for superprecise plans to the 1/16th of an inch are really a waste of your time, unless you enjoy the exercise. As mentioned above, unless your detailing a set of steel shop drawings, or fine carpentry, dimensions to the nearest half inch generally are sufficient. Heck, even nearest inch is fine. Frank Ching is an excellent resource for drafting techniques, was a text book of mine back in school, as were the other's you listed. Glenn Wiggins also has a good book on how to assemble a complete set of construction drawings. If you get to flustered with it, you can always pay me to do them! LOL. Seriously though, I will. Business is slow. Hence why I am on here in the middle of the afternoon. On that note, good luck, and don't be afraid to PM me if you have any questions...

 

[Gooserider]

Hardisiding can come prefinished too, so no need to paint. I used it on my own house. It is also insect proof too. It also has a higher resistence to heat transfer of any cladding material, because it is made of cement. Seriously though. I am an architect at an architectural and construction management firm (design build). The need for superprecise plans to the 1/16th of an inch are really a waste of your time, unless you enjoy the exercise. As mentioned above, unless your detailing a set of steel shop drawings, or fine carpentry, dimensions to the nearest half inch generally are sufficient. Heck, even nearest inch is fine. Frank Ching is an excellent resource for drafting techniques, was a text book of mine back in school, as were the other's you listed. Glenn Wiggins also has a good book on how to assemble a complete set of construction drawings. If you get to flustered with it, you can always pay me to do them! LOL. Seriously though, I will. Business is slow. Hence why I am on here in the middle of the afternoon. On that note, good luck, and don't be afraid to PM me if you have any questions...

Thanks for the book suggestions - I think I'm starting to get a feel for what I should try to get my hands on to help me with this... The Wiggins book seems like a mixed bag from the Amazon reviews, I can use some help on figuring out what features I need to get down beyond the obvious walls, doors and windows, but several said the book was more aimed at commercial buildings than residential, so it might be overkill. OTOH, it's fairly low cost used.

I'm with you on the idea that my overall plans don't need to be ultra precise, but as I said, I find that doing my best to minimize errors at each stage keeps me from ending up with a big cumulative one... I suspect that the rest of the floor plans will go better now that I've got this part of the house done, as the other rooms are less convoluted, and there are fewer closets and such to deal with. I'm also getting more used to the CAD program and the laser tape.

Part of the problem is that this is a very non-standard house design, it's beautiful, but a bit strange - the GF says she thinks it's somewhat like a Deckhaus design, all I know is it's a contemporary, one of only three in town, and a bit of a challenge to work on in lots of ways...

Gooserider

 

[TreePapa]

Take a good look at the HardiPlank. I suspect the vinyl will warp, crack, and bubble before the HP needs to be repainted (provided orig. paint job is good). It really does take and hold paint well. In addition to shear strength, it also resists fire (nice everywhere) and wind shear (more of a problem in the Northeast than it is here). I think it also has a better "R" value than vinyl ('tho no siding insulates that much).

Also, google "vinyl siding AND mold" and you get a lot of complaints and "how to remove" threads. Google "hardie plank siding AND mold" and you get articles on how well it resists mold.

No, I don't work for James Hardie and have no financial interest therein. I do have a visceral dislike for vinyl, but I can put it aside when the application is good. We recently used high-quality wood grain vinyl flooring in the "guest house" that my (elderly) MIL and FIL live in behind our house. They had really nasty, dirty crapet (er, carpet) 'cuz they spill a lot. This flooring has a lot of qualities that made it the right choice for their house. Vinyl siding, OTOH, has a lot of problems and looks phoney.

Peace,
- Sequoia