Carbon monoxide problem

[Jclout]

Hi again, we just recently had the kitchen and the cellar carbon monoxide detectors go off within 1 min of each other. The culprit I believe is a Tempwood II downdraft wood stove located in the cellar. My wife had cut the draft down, the night was cold and cloudy no wind or not much I do not believe that the chimney is blocked but I will check. We have been running it for several days now with no problems except from the week before for the first burn when I had a bunch of liquid creosote leak out of the pipe again on a cut down draft and then another night the air going into the draft holes was making a fluctuating sound, but no carbon monoxide problem untill last night. My wife is weary now, what do I do, switch to an air tight stove?

 

[Burn-1]

Considering that all 7 of your stoves are smoke dragons, I think you might want to add one EPA compliant stove to the mix. You, (and your wife) could certainly sleep better at night with one of those replacing the Tempwood.

 

[begreen]

Stove nut, give us the big picture here. What stoves are currently in the house? How are you currently heating? What do you have running in the basement? Is there a clothes dryer? A furnace or boiler? Gas or oil HW heater?

Whatever you do, don't run the Tempwood stove until this problem is safely solved.

 

[restorer]

CCCCCCrrrrrrrrrrraaaaaaaaaaaapppppp! if it were me, I'd shut them all down and bring in an expert. We have a community service through the Health Department that will check this out for free. CO is DEADLY. The alarm will warn, but won't keep you alive. There is something seriously wrong, find out before we learn of a death.

 

[Jclout]

The house is heated mainly by hot water baseboard from a natural gas boiler in a closed section of the cellar. I only have one 6" double insul chimney for the wood stoves so I can only burn my 6" stoves per code and rite now the Tempwood II is the one that is hooked up. Thanks for any help! O yes there is a close dryer not far from the Tempwood and I also keep the window slightly open near the stove.

 

[DriftWood]

I only have one 6" double insul chimney for the wood stoves so I can only burn my 6" stoves per code and rite now the Tempwood II is the one that is hooked up.

??? do you mean more than one stove on the chimney??

 

[elkimmeg]

Lets see if we can get a closer look at this. Gas furnace. clothes dryer. and wood stove all located in the negative pressure zone and Co alarms go off,
any holes cut in the floor to move heat? meaning open floor vents? Is the clothes dryer gas?

 

[Jclout]

Yes only 1 stove in the 6" chimney at a time. No gas dryer only electric. There is a vent in the floor rite above the wood stove and another one nearly above the dryer.

 

[littlesmokey]

Yes only 1 stove in the 6" chimney at a time. No gas dryer only electric. There is a vent in the floor rite above the wood stove and another one nearly above the dryer.

Don't to mean tobe personal, but do you have a stove garden in the back yard, or all these working stoves, hooked up and running, in your signature?

 

[DriftWood]

My wife is weary now, what do I do, switch to an air tight stove?

No not a old air tight wood stove. Get a modern EPA wood stove. They are not air tight but will burn very clean and efficient ! More heat using less wood.


Old school iron collection. One for every season, like the old days and old ways.
"Move the Franklin to the barn for the summer will ya Sonny, we will be using the parlor for something else this summer."

 

[Todd]

Sounds like a negative pressure problem. Too many appliances competing for air at the same time, so your chimney sucks air down to equalize the pressure and leaks co2. Basements are notorious for this. Go to www.condar.com and check out their air supply ventilator, it may help. Also could be the old stove leaking, check your gaskets and seams or look into a new EPA stove.

 

[Hogwildz]

If that creosote is running outside the pipe, that means you have the pipe run backwards. And if that much is running out, you're due for a cleaning, and also most likely a chimney fire in the near future. Just sayin...............

 

[Jclout]

I do have a smoke dragon collection you might say. I do only use 1 at a time. What if I simply opened the window near the stove more to correct any negative pressure problem?

 

[restorer]

I do have a smoke dragon collection you might say. I do only use 1 at a time. What if I simply opened the window near the stove more to correct any negative pressure problem?

Personally, I'd open a few windows and say thanks. Take the next few weeks and look carefully though this forum and learn the reasons for not taking your life so casually. The stoves can be made safe, but you have issues that are way beyond the stoves. Solve the issue of CO alarms going off first and then look at how you can apply your appliances to heating your home. Tomorrow I want to have a nice reply that all the family is safe and you don't dump on your good natured Uncle.

 

[begreen]

Something is obviously amok in the installation, perhaps several things. If the pipe and/or stove is leaky and located in a negative pressure zone, it could be that stove fumes are being sucked into the basement and then coming up through the vents that were cut into the floor. Those detectors may have saved your lives. That's a lot to be thankful for today.

 

[elkimmeg]

Begreen you challenged me about floor vents I was only guessing he had holes cut but is sounds so familiar I can't not stress enough about safety containment concerning cutting holes in the floort especially directly above the stove istant passage way to disaster this application only proves exactly why this practice is so dangerous

It proves exactly what I feared products of combustion have an easy route to the living space Even worse holes in the floor in bedrooms without Co detectors or detectors that malfunction

Makes no difference with an electric dryer it still removes 150 cfm when in operation. The makeup air has to come from somewhere, which competes with combustion air supply.

Something drew the exhaust air out of that stove or vent warm air rising pushed the carbon monoxide up threw the floor vent above the stove and set off the alarm.

For years I have preached how dangerous this practice is yet members want to fight me and disprove it or do not want to hear the message. The message is real as are the consequences of this practice. when are other members going to realize this and support safety? Hell I alerted about safety issues with fireplaces and pre fab installations only to have those post deleted.
You think I'm making up these safety warnings. There is a house totaled in my town last weekend due to the very fireplace issues I tried to point out and bring forward a problem that could have been fixed with a tube of refractory cement and a caulking gut about a $10 fix could have saved that home But its gone deleted I made a good effort posting codes concerning ZC and insert installation again not the message some wanted to hear again deleted.

Do the powers that be, owning or moderating the hearth, care anything about life safety issues? How many deaths or disasters will it take?

Ok off the soap box but I feel strongly about safety Codes only go so far, at some point common sense should kick in, and having administrator poo poo the dangers of safety is appalling.

 

[velvetfoot]

My brother in law told me yesterday about a wedding he went to in Massachusetts.
They had to hire a fire marshall for the reception to watch over the centerpiece candles.

 

[emory]

Way to hijack another thread with the holes in the floor rant. I think holes in the floor are the least of this posters worries right now.

If a CO detector goes off you may have a serious problem. You should contact a professional to come and check out your appliances.

 

[elkimmeg]

Way to hijack another thread with the holes in the floor rant. I think holes in the floor are the least of this posters worries right now.

If a CO detector goes off you may have a serious problem. You should contact a professional to come and check out your appliances.

yes only 1 stove in the 6” chimney at a time. No gas dryer only electric. There is a vent in the floor rite above the wood stove and another one nearly above the dryer.

What you think that is not a concern or part of the problem?

 

[begreen]

Elk, I read the remark about the holes and it set off a red flag. Even at dinner I couldn't forget about it. A few what if's went through my mind.

What if the holes in the floor were in a bedroom and this happened with an overnight fire?
What if they didn't have a CO monitor at all or the batteries weren't kept up?
What if they only had one alarm in the basement and were sound sleepers (my sister in law could sleep through a tornado).

There are lots of things we can't stop, but this is not one of them. Good judgment and safe practices can save lives. That is all Elk is pointing out. I've always been with him on the risks with holes cut in the floor. I think I was the original advocate for fusible link dampers being installed. However, in this case, a fusible linked damper in the floor vents would have done nothing. That's why I would never put a vent in a bedroom. But one can only protect so much and with a large open hole between floors in our own house, aka a stairwell, it would be hypocritical for me to say never do this. My compensating safety program consists of alarms, a clean new install, good maintenance and an extinguisher nearby.

emory, this is a public forum. While we can do pretty much whatever we chose in our own home, it is another thing to endorse it on the forum as a common or safe practice. Pointing out the causes and cures for this situation may help others. If it saves one life, then it will have been worth bringing once again the potential risks of cutting holes in floors to attention.

BTW, kudos to stove nut for this posting. This has to be pretty unsettling to a guy who loves burning and stoves. Let's get him safe and comfortable; if his wife will let another fire be burned in the house. Good for him also to have the common sense to install alarms and keep them maintained.

 

[Jclout]

I just talked with a chimney sweep who is coming to check out the situation and he said that the floor grates without ductwork are actually illeagal which I did not know, but even if it is ducted you still can get smoke or fumes. We at least need to leave the cellar door open for some heat. Everybody is alive uncle larry and I am thankfull for that and that the detectors worked and I will let everyone know what the sweep finds out.
John

 

[elkimmeg]

Solutions

ask before the chimney sweep arrives, if he has the means to draft test and meter your chimney draft?

second I need to know the dimensions of your basement and if there are rooms walls ext H/W/L

I will do the combustion air calculations. I suspect you will need to provide outside air feed to your furnace.

Tell me is the furnace enclosed in a utility room? We need to get an idea of your cellar layout


Do you have a pulldown stairs to your attic or how big is your attic access?

 

[JimWalshin845]

Did you have your HVAC guy check the barometric damper on your gas boiler?

 

[Jclout]

Ok boys it doesnt look good! I talked to one sweep on the phone who seemed very knowledgable and what I got from him without him actually coming to see the situation was that the answer was to extend higher than the highest roof. The sweep that did come and inspect my chimney had many bad things to say about it. One piece has a bulge on the inside, I used screws that were too long on several connecting points, I had some open previous screw holes a no, no, I also installed the insullation improperly in the thimbal area and there is not enough clearance around the pipe where it comes through the deck. As far as the stove goes he said that the insurance company would laugh if there was a claim. It is old and rusty which I did not think was a problem as long as it was UL approved,- am I wrong? He also said that part of the problem was that it was not air tight and also I should add to the hieght of the pipe but I seemed to get that adding another 3' or so to start may be ok. I got an estimate of replacing what I have with new DuraTech 8" fixing the deck section and I hope adding to the hieght is under $2260, but I think that since most new stoves are now 6" that I may stick with that if we go that route. He did not check the draft with a meter however.

 

[begreen]

Well, the good news is that you folks are alive.

Just process thinking here, if you need a complete new flue, what about getting a good epa stove and moving it upstairs? I think you might be surprised how much less wood you would use. It would also shorten the chimney length (and price). Depending on the house layout, you might be able get the flue and a good new stove for less than the basement quoted chimney. Would moving the stove to the first floor be a possibility?