Carbon Monoxide

[guest5234]

Just a few questions folks.
Is a stove much better than an open fire at reducing the chance of Carbon Monoxide escaping into the room ? and is it always better to burn small hot fires instead of a large smoulderinf fire in your stove to lessen the risk of producing the deadly gas.

 

[ScottF]

Also if you are getting carbon monoxide from a wood stove I believe you are going to smell smoke in the room also. Different story if you are burning coal , you could get carbon monoxide without any odor. Carbon monoxide detectors are a must if you are burining coal.

 

[bokehman]

Is a stove much better than an open fire at reducing the chance of Carbon Monoxide escaping into the room ?

Yes!

is it always better to burn small hot fires instead of a large smoulderinf fire in your stove to lessen the risk of producing the deadly gas.

It doesn't matter how you burn, hot or not, the fumes produced by a woodstove/fireplace are lethal. But that is only a problem if the fumes enter the living space. This happens when there is insufficient draft or when the house is tightly sealed and two appliances are in competition for combustion air, for example a woodstove and an oil furnace. (Both of these are known as "backdrafting".) A woodstove is safer than an open fire because the fumes are better contained. For even more isolation between the fumes and the living space you could add an "outside air kit", which draws combustion air from outside the house. That way if for some reason fumes somehow start to exit the stove through the inlet those fumes cannot enter the living space.

 

[ScottF]

It doesn’t matter how you burn, hot or not, the fumes produced by a woodstove/fireplace are lethal. But that is only a problem if the fumes enter the living space. This happens when there is insufficient draft or when the house is tightly sealed and two appliances are in competition for combustion air, for example a woodstove and an oil furnace. (Both of these are known as “backdrafting”.) A woodstove is safer than an open fire because the fumes are better contained. For even more isolation between the fumes and the living space you could add an “outside air kit”, which draws combustion air from outside the house. That way if for some reason fumes somehow start to exit the stove through the inlet those fumes cannot enter the living space.

Exactly but if a wood stove or fireplace is backdrafting or has insufficient draw the room will smell like smoke. The smell provides warning, Still I like to err on the safe side and use a carbon Monoxide detector. You should have one in your house anyway .

 

[colebrookman]

CO is odorless, tasteless and colorless which is why we all need working detectors on every floor of our homes. Entire families have been lost to CO poisoning and we expect a rise this year with people try their best to heat their homes on the cheap. We've had calls when residents have disconnected the detectors because they made to much noise. Detectors must be properly placed so they go off when needed. They work for any burning in the home that produces CO fumes and anything burning will produce CO. Google CO poisoning for more info.
Ed

 

[Jimbob]

(broken link removed to http://hydro.mb.ca/safety_and_education/home/co_safety.shtml)

 

[bokehman]

if a wood stove or fireplace is backdrafting or has insufficient draw the room will smell like smoke. The smell provides warning

Tell that to the dead guy. First if a smell starts slowly and builds up gradually it will always be below the level of detection. That's how the sense of smell works. Also once the wood has finished the gasification phase there is no smell at all anyway. What about the sleeping family. How alert are they to a slight smell of wood smoke compared to a 105 decibel audible CO alarm. One other thing, as the problem progresses over time people become accustomed to the smell of a leaky appliance and just accept it as normal. As their exposure day after day increases their ability to rationalize about the cause decreases.

 

[ScottF]

Tell that to the dead guy. First if a smell starts slowly and builds up gradually it will always be below the level of detection. That’s how the sense of smell works. Also once the wood has finished the gasification phase there is no smell at all anyway. What about the sleeping family. How alert are they to a slight smell of wood smoke compared to a 105 decibel audible CO alarm. One other thing, as the problem progresses over time people become accustomed to the smell of a leaky appliance and just accept it as normal. As their exposure day after day increases their ability to rationalize about the cause decreases.
anyway

Which is why I added the second line, but I guess you didnt read that far.

Still I like to err on the safe side and use a carbon Monoxide detector.

 

[colebrookman]

if a wood stove or fireplace is backdrafting or has insufficient draw the room will smell like smoke. The smell provides warning

Tell that to the dead guy. First if a smell starts slowly and builds up gradually it will always be below the level of detection. That's how the sense of smell works. Also once the wood has finished the gasification phase there is no smell at all anyway. What about the sleeping family. How alert are they to a slight smell of wood smoke compared to a 105 decibel audible CO alarm. One other thing, as the problem progresses over time people become accustomed to the smell of a leaky appliance and just accept it as normal. As their exposure day after day increases their ability to rationalize about the cause decreases.

Great comments Bokehman. Clear, odorless, tasteless !! Most people take the fire detectors seriously but have a cavalier attitude towards CO which is a hidden killer. Even Drs. in the ER neglect to ask about CO poisoning when patients are seen with flue symptoms. Any flue like symptoms that get better after leaving the house and return when your back in the house should be suspect. We had one house in which the propane dealer responded three separate times yet it finally took the fire dept. to follow the outside vent and discover a rodents nest partially plugging the air exchange. Not rocket science!
Also studies have proved that sleeping children up to the age of 21 or so will not hear a fire or CO detector alarm so be prepared to rescue them.
Ed

 

[ScottF]

Every house that has some sort of heat, cooking etc. device that burns fuel has the potential to be subject to carbon monoxide. Therefore carbon monoxide detectors should be as standard as smoke detectors. As a matter of fact many states require them in all new building construction just as they require smoke detectors.

.I have a friend that heats with propane The snow was excessive last year and the vent of his direct vent furnace was covered when the snow slid off the roof. The Carbon monoxide detector saved his family from possible disaster.

There are numerous ways that vents or exhaust pipes can become plugged or fail. If you have any type of fuel burning appliance in your house you should have carbon monoxide detectors placed similarly to where smoke detectors are required.

In a previous post I stated that with coal carbon monoxide can be undetected but with wood there is a smoke smell present if cabon monoxide is present. This was merely so anyone could see how the two could differ , however, I was in no way condoneing burning a wood stove without a carbon monoxide detector. I should have been more specific about that. Carbon Monoxide detectors save lives and I believe everybody should have them in their houses if they have attached garages or burn any kind of fuel burning appliance.

 

[colebrookman]

Nice post Scott. Wait till people start using the gas ovens on their stoves to supplement heating or they bring in the gas grill because they have no money for fuel. Of course the politicians will be warm and cosy. People are hurting.
Ed

 

[colebrookman]

http://hydro.mb.ca/safety_and_education/home/co_safety.shtml

Nice web site Jimbob, thank you. Unfortunately with the cold temps coming we will see a CO victim in the news soon. Be safe.
Ed

 

[bokehman]

Every house that has some sort of heat, cooking etc. device that burns fuel has the potential to be subject to carbon monoxide.

The important word here is potential. Gas fired hobs and boilers don't produce CO unless they are broken. Wood smoke on the other hand inherently contains CO. And talking about incomplete combustion, we control a wood stove by limiting the air supply, (the opposite of a diesel engine). Can you imagine doing that with a gas hob. Feed in gas at a constant rate and cut the air to limit the heat output. When you turned the hob down the flame would go orange and anyone in the house would die of CO poisoning.

 

[firefighterjake]

Nice post Scott. Wait till people start using the gas ovens on their stoves to supplement heating or they bring in the gas grill because they have no money for fuel. Of course the politicians will be warm and cosy. People are hurting.
Ed

No waiting needed . . . they started last winter when heating oil prices began to spike. I've heard now of more than one person who "supplemented" their home heating by turning on the gas oven. No cases of gas grills inside yet . . . although there was a few CO poisonings back when Maine was hit with an Ice Storm several years back.

 

[colebrookman]

Good point Firefighterjake. Last year's ad for fuel assistance put out by Joe Kennedy showed an elderly woman trying to stay warm in front of an open gas oven. No warnings except to apply for fuel assistance. There is a lot of apathy regarding CO and it cuts across all income levels and dumb tv ads don't help.
Ed