CATL pushed production battery capacity to 500wH/kg

[begreen]

CATL just announced a new condensed battery aimed at the transportation sector, especially aviation. The new battery has an energy density of >500wH/kg. This is a significant jump from the 200-300 wH/kg in current automotive batteries. The battery is scheduled to be production ready by fall. It significantly raises the bar for competitors, especially if cost competitive. So far there has been no pricing mentioned, but it will be one to watch later this year.
CATL is the leading manufacturer of lithium-based batteries. They have at least one-third of the world's market share. Their batteries are found in Teslas, BMWs, Mercedes, etc.

CATL unveils condensed battery with an energy density of 500 Wh/kg

The battery can achieve high energy density and a high level of safety at the same time in a creative manner.

www.inceptivemind.com

 

[peakbagger]

https://www.teslarati.com/electric-plane-battery-catl-unveil/.

Getting real interesting

 

[peakbagger]

Of course there are silicone anode batteries with potentially similar density https://www.yahoo.com/autos/silicon-anode-batteries-could-transform-193000609.html

Thats a new battery chemistry to me.

 

[stoveliker]

Silicon anodes don't last very long...

It seems that the more complicated structuring here was done to avoid desintegration of the anodes, especially in view of the high energy density.

 

[begreen]

There are some interesting formulations that are showing some promise in the lab but it's a big leap from the lab to having them ready for production, the fabrication lines setup, and all the infrastructure that requires. The new CATL battery appears to be tested and ready to hit the market in a few months. At that point, it's 100% ahead of the pack. Eventually, this battery will be eclipsed. Battery tech will continue to develop and evolve with growing markets.

 

[begreen]

Silicon anodes don't last very long...

It seems that the more complicated structuring here was done to avoid desintegration of the anodes, especially in view of the high energy density.

Solutions are now starting to percolate up toward production. A local company, Group 14 is ramping up production facilities rapidly in WA state and S. Korea. They have created a carbon scaffold bonded with nano-silicon which handles the expansion issue that was causing the breaking up of silicon anodes. Anodes made from this material are already in ATL cellphone batteries. Now they are ramping up for the transportation sector.

Sila is also building a Moses Lake battery manufacturing facility. These plants should be producing in a couple of years. Mercedes is the first automobile mfg. signed on. Amprius say they have developed a true silicon anode that they say is stable. The plan is to ramp up quickly to production scale, but it will be a race. CATL has a big headstart in the battery market and it looks like their new battery raises the bar significantly.

 

[stoveliker]

I know. I actually have done some work on silicon anodes.

The point is that the solutions you mention decrease (a lot) the energy density per kg. They may solve the swelling but the main advantage (high energy density) is mostly lost too.

 

[begreen]

I know. I actually have done some work on silicon anodes.

The point is that the solutions you mention decrease (a lot) the energy density per kg. They may solve the swelling but the main advantage (high energy density) is mostly lost too.

Indeed, the first two are claiming energy density in the 400-450 wH/kg, not too shabby, but not as high as Amprius claims to have achieved at 500 wH/kg with a pure silicon anode. CATL's announcement has to be raining on their parade a bit. Still, with the requirement for batteries to be US made for the full tax credit, they may still prevail, but who knows what CATL will announce in 2 yrs.

 

[begreen]

CATL and Ford are building a massive $3B battery plant in Michigan. It wouldn't surprise me if these batteries show up in a Lightning truck at some point in the not-too-distant future.

 

[EbS-P]

CATL and Ford are building a massive $3B battery plant in Michigan. It wouldn't surprise me if these batteries show up in a Lightning truck at some point in the not-too-distant future.

Weight is not an issue for a big truck. So I doubt that’s where they until the production cost drops below currently used batteries. Weight might be something a small hatchback might care about. First manufacturer to get a 5 passenger vehicle below $37k with a 350-400 mile range will be a big winner.

And a lighter battery might get the range they need to outcompete

 

[begreen]

Weight is not an issue for a big truck. So I doubt that’s where they until the production cost drops below currently used batteries. Weight might be something a small hatchback might care about. First manufacturer to get a 5 passenger vehicle below $37k with a 350-400 mile range will be a big winner.

And a lighter battery might get the range they need to outcompete

For a big truck, I think the issue is the range when towing or hauling a heavy load, especially in the winter. The extra range in summer when unloaded is just gravy.

First manufacturer to get a 5 passenger vehicle below $37k with a 350-400 mile range will be a big winner.

Agreed, though for most EV owners this is unnecessary, especially if they are fast charging capable. A 250-mile range for many is fine and usually enough to get between larger urban areas. It seems most cars are daily commuters, kid transport, and shopping trip vehicles.

 

[ABMax24]

Weight is not an issue for a big truck. So I doubt that’s where they until the production cost drops below currently used batteries. Weight might be something a small hatchback might care about. First manufacturer to get a 5 passenger vehicle below $37k with a 350-400 mile range will be a big winner.

And a lighter battery might get the range they need to outcompete

I'd argue weight is a huge issue. Current one ton pickup owners already run into issues in some states because of max GVW regulations regarding passenger vehicles. A pickup built to tow needs a 200-300kwh battery to be competitive with an ICE powered version. With current battery tech it'll weigh significantly more than their ICE powered counterparts.

Tesla is seeing this with their Semis right now, it's estimated the EV has an 8,000lb weight penalty over a traditional diesel truck. Which works out to about a 25% reduction in cargo capacity. Not an issue if your hauling potatoes chips, an issue for most other cargoes though.

I see this battery tech having commercial applications on highway long before it see commercial applications in aviation.

 

[EbS-P]

As

I'd argue weight is a huge issue. Current one ton pickup owners already run into issues in some states because of max GVW regulations regarding passenger vehicles. A pickup built to tow needs a 200-300kwh battery to be competitive with an ICE powered version. With current battery tech it'll weigh significantly more than their ICE powered counterparts.

Tesla is seeing this with their Semis right now, it's estimated the EV has an 8,000lb weight penalty over a traditional diesel truck. Which works out to about a 25% reduction in cargo capacity. Not an issue if your hauling potatoes chips, an issue for most other cargoes though.

I see this battery tech having commercial applications on highway long before it see commercial applications in aviation.

I get the sense that the aviation industry is working harder to be green than the trucking industry.

For light duty truck in particular, I think range trumps cargo capacity. The cheapest way to get your range is what you will go with then you will decide what cargo capacity you will design for. Put it all into cost optimization matrix then ask the public what’s most important. Or ask why did you or did you not buy a Tesla.

Aviation will pay more for batteries than the the public will in cars. But the testing will cost more too.

 

[stoveliker]

I think weight is a huge issue.
Weight vs range is the EV variant of the "rocket equation" (without, of course, the change in mass that plays a large role in the rocket world).

 

[ABMax24]

As

I get the sense that the aviation industry is working harder to be green than the trucking industry.

For light duty truck in particular, I think range trumps cargo capacity. The cheapest way to get your range is what you will go with then you will decide what cargo capacity you will design for. Put it all into cost optimization matrix then ask the public what’s most important. Or ask why did you or did you not buy a Tesla.

Aviation will pay more for batteries than the the public will in cars. But the testing will cost more too.

It's not really about being green or not. The trucking industry has low barriers to entry, most people with a commercial drivers license and a few cents to rub together can pony up and get themselves a truck. As such margins have been historically low. Operators have and will continue to choose their trucks based on cost effectiveness, EVs aren't cost effective outside of specific niche markets or large scale businesses that use them for marketing material.

Short range commuter planes are different, it's not unheard of for a short haul flight to consume 25% of it's total fuel burn during taxi because jet engines are so inefficient near idle. There's significant cost advantages to a more efficient electric motor power fan or propeller during taxi, or alternatively power the landing gear wheels themselves. Of course not to mention that electric driven fans would be quiter than their turbine power counterparts. Jet fuel is also more expensive than road fuel, while road and aerospace electricity costs the same.

 

[begreen]

Interesting and astute observation ABMax. Still, initial reports indicate that the trucking industry seems to like EV trucks, a lot. They are quieter, faster, gearless, safer, and technology-rich. They make driving more comfortable and route planning and logistics easier. They are also a lot cheaper to run.

Tesla Semi: Everything we know in December 2023

Here’s everything we know about the Tesla Semi, the Californian brand’s CO2-free semi-truck that could revolutionize its segment.

topelectricsuv.com

 

[ABMax24]

Interesting and astute observation ABMax. Still, initial reports indicate that the trucking industry seems to like EV trucks, a lot. They are quieter, faster, gearless, safer, and technology-rich. They make driving more comfortable and route planning and logistics easier. They are also a lot cheaper to run.

Tesla Semi: Everything we know in December 2023

Here’s everything we know about the Tesla Semi, the Californian brand’s CO2-free semi-truck that could revolutionize its segment.

topelectricsuv.com

The substantial orders thus far are from large corporations with massive fleets, most orders making up less than 1% of their current fleets. While I agree there are certainly advantages, I believe most trucking companies are watching with cautious optimism. The proof will be in the pudding, I know Tesla at this time claims a 20% reduction in cost (which I believe is certainly achievable) reliability has yet to be proven though and many consumers are going to want to see real world evidence before throwing down $150k on an EV truck. The only way for that proof to be shown is to get them on the road and let them start racking up miles, something Tesla seems to be having issues doing.

 

[begreen]

Yes, it's a seachange. Companies are wisely taking baby steps, as they should. It will require a lot more of those superchargers along main interstate routes before wider adoption occurs. Still, change is coming and it will be good.

 

[EbS-P]

The substantial orders thus far are from large corporations with massive fleets, most orders making up less than 1% of their current fleets. While I agree there are certainly advantages, I believe most trucking companies are watching with cautious optimism. The proof will be in the pudding, I know Tesla at this time claims a 20% reduction in cost (which I believe is certainly achievable) reliability has yet to be proven though and many consumers are going to want to see real world evidence before throwing down $150k on an EV truck. The only way for that proof to be shown is to get them on the road and let them start racking up miles, something Tesla seems to be having issues doing.

Tesla hasn’t listed a price on their semi. Numbers I have seen put it at $225k USD

 

[stoveliker]

Maybe I should buy one and live in it. And have solar panels on the trailer (and live in a sunny place).
That's expensive (as in 150% of an ICE truck, if I'm correct), is my point... Payback will be a while at that percentage...

 

[EbS-P]

Maybe I should buy one and live in it. And have solar panels on the trailer (and live in a sunny place).
That's expensive (as in 150% of an ICE truck, if I'm correct), is my point... Payback will be a while at that percentage...

But at $100k in fuel costs costs a year you save $20k. No DEF or DPF either. Five years or less and you’re ahead. Not to mention the maintenance cost savings. 40-50 qts of oil every 40k-50k miles. I do think there will be a maintenance schedule for the heavy duty BETs but nothing like the ICE.

I’d like to see what insurance rates do for the Tesla trucks. That could be another savings.

 

[stoveliker]

True.

I read (I think at the AAA) that insurance rates of EVs are higher than for ice vehicles - but that surely was for cars, not semis.

 

[SpaceBus]

I can't believe how fast this sector is moving. Now I'm looking for data on how fast ICE displaced animals, but that's hard to find.

 

[begreen]

True.

I read (I think at the AAA) that insurance rates of EVs are higher than for ice vehicles - but that surely was for cars, not semis.

Teslas are high up there. Maybe because they are harder to fix or need specialized shops? Could part of the high costs for others be due to the very high cost of those EVs? Normal-cost EVs like the Bolt, Niro, and Kona seem to have more normal insurance rates too. Our Volt doesn't have unusually high premiums.

 

[SpaceBus]

Teslas are high up there. Maybe because they are harder to fix or need specialized shops? Could part of the high costs for others be due to the very high cost of those EVs? Normal-cost EVs like the Bolt, Niro, and Kona seem to have more normal insurance rates too. Our Volt doesn't have unusually high premiums.

I think when EVs are mainstream ICE will be more expensive to insure. Currently EVs are the specialty that requires retraining and retooling across the industry, but I think that in the long term parts supply and techs will be cheaper than what is required for ICE.