Ceiling heat shield for Jotul 602

[Ditchmonkey]

I am installing a Jotul 602 in an alcove. The manual states that 96" of ceiling clearance but I'm only at 89". The wood stove dealer said I would need to install a ceiling heat shield. The specifications in the manual for the wall heat shields are very detailed, but I have been unable to find ceiling heat shield specifications anywhere. I have sheet steel I will use, and one inch standoffs, but I can't figure out what the dimensions of the shield need to be.

The wall shields specify coverage extending 7 inches or more from the front of the stove, I'm wondering if 7 inches from each side would be a good measure for the ceiling shield? Any insights on this?

 

[begreen]

That is 96" ceiling height, not just above the stove. Sounds like you may be ok.



Post some pictures or a sketch of the layout if there are other concerns.

 

[Ditchmonkey]

That is 96" ceiling height, not just above the stove. Sounds like you may be ok.

View attachment 279579

Post some pictures or a sketch of the layout if there are other concerns.

Sorry I misspoke. Required total ceiling height is 96 but my space is 89 inches from the top of the hearth pad to the ceiling.

 

[begreen]

A ceiling shield is like a wall shield. It needs to permit air circulation behind it, so 1" standoffs and 1" away from the walls.

 

[Ditchmonkey]

A ceiling shield is like a wall shield. It needs to permit air circulation behind it, so 1" standoffs and 1" away from the walls.

That was my initial thought but based on that idea the heat shield is going to cover the entire alcove ceiling, whereas the wall shields only need to be 36 inches tall and certainly do not need to cover the entire wall. That makes the ceiling shield the largest piece of metal in the entire project, and complicates the installation a lot based on where the joists are.

I'll probably end up doing it that way but I was hoping someone had some insight on what the official requirements are.

 

[bholler]

That was my initial thought but based on that idea the heat shield is going to cover the entire alcove ceiling, whereas the wall shields only need to be 36 inches tall and certainly do not need to cover the entire wall. That makes the ceiling shield the largest piece of metal in the entire project, and complicates the installation a lot based on where the joists are.

I'll probably end up doing it that way but I was hoping someone had some insight on what the official requirements are.

If they don't mention a ceiling heat shield it is probably because using one is not approved.

 

[Ditchmonkey]

If they don't mention a ceiling heat shield it is probably because using one is not approved.

Yeah that is a concern I have but the dealer did stove and pipe installation and told me at the time I would need to install this ceiling shield. The fact that I can find nothing about it is making me think they were full of it.

 

[bholler]

Yeah that is a concern I have but the dealer did stove and pipe installation and told me at the time I would need to install this ceiling shield. The fact that I can find nothing about it is making me think they were full of it.

They did the install without the required clearances or shielding???

 

[Ditchmonkey]

They did the install without the required clearances or shielding???

The clearances are all correct upon installation of the heat shields. I was going to install those shields then coordinate with the inspector to finalize the permit. The snag is with this ceiling shield which has no specifications that I can find.

 

[bholler]

The clearances are all correct upon installation of the heat shields. I was going to install those shields then coordinate with the inspector to finalize the permit. The snag is with this ceiling shield which has no specifications that I can find.

Ok but it doesn't have clearances now correct? That is very unprofessional and is opening them up to massive liability. If I did it I would either require you to have them done or I would do them myself before hooking up the stove

 

[Ditchmonkey]

Ok but it doesn't have clearances now correct? That is very unprofessional and is opening them up to massive liability. If I did it I would either require you to have them done or I would do them myself before hooking up the stove

Like I said, the permit is not finalized so I imagine that indemnifies them from potential liability. Really we only wanted them to install the stove pipe as I'm doing the rest of the construction. Certainly it must be possible for contractors to come out and install a component, like the stovepipe, without finalizing the entire system at the same step. Neither myself, the dealer, nor the county have an issue with this process at this time.

If there is a problem here, it will be related to the fact that they took a look at my ceiling clearance, knew it wasn't correct, and told me the wrong information about a heat shield so they could go ahead and sell me a stove anyway. We'll find out I guess.

 

[begreen]

This would be easier to discuss if we saw some design drawings and/or site photos.

 

[Ditchmonkey]

I'll get a photo. In the meantime here is some info from the NFPA 211, stating that a ceiling heat shield reduces stated clearances up to 50%. My understanding is that manufacturers specifications are the first thing to follow, and then these rules where the manufacturer does not have a specification. Unfortunately that puts me right back where I started which is there are no guidelines on dimensions for a ceiling shield.

 

[bholler]

I'll get a photo. In the meantime here is some info from the NFPA 211, stating that a ceiling heat shield reduces stated clearances up to 50%. My understanding is that manufacturers specifications are the first thing to follow, and then these rules where the manufacturer does not have a specification. Unfortunately that puts me right back where I started which is there are no guidelines on dimensions for a ceiling shield.

No the NFPA 211 specs only apply to unlisted stoves. Yours is listed so NFPA doesn't apply at all. Once a stove is listed the only thing that matters is the manual.

 

[Ditchmonkey]

No the NFPA 211 specs only apply to unlisted stoves. Yours is listed so NFPA doesn't apply at all. Once a stove is listed the only thing that matters is the manual.

Does that mean that in the case of a Morso 1410, as an example, which has no adjusted clearances for heat shields in its manual, that heat shields can't be used at all to reduce clearances?

 

[bholler]

I'll get a photo. In the meantime here is some info from the NFPA 211, stating that a ceiling heat shield reduces stated clearances up to 50%. My understanding is that manufacturers specifications are the first thing to follow, and then these rules where the manufacturer does not have a specification. Unfortunately that puts me right back where I started which is there are no guidelines on dimensions for a ceiling shield.

Ok that chart gives you the reduction granted for various methods to that 96" requirement. So ceiling shields are allowed. To figure out the size you measure diagonally from the edge of the stove untill you meet the required clearance. Anything under that needs shielded.

 

[bholler]

Does that mean that in the case of a Morso 1410, as an example, which has no adjusted clearances for heat shields in its manual, that heat shields can't be used at all to reduce clearances?

Correct if no reduction is specified none is allowed

 

[Ditchmonkey]

Ok that chart gives you the reduction granted for various methods to that 96" requirement. So ceiling shields are allowed. To figure out the size you measure diagonally from the edge of the stove untill you meet the required clearance. Anything under that needs shielded.

I thought you said in your previous reply that chart did not apply to a listed stove?

 

[bholler]

I thought you said in your previous reply that chart did not apply to a listed stove?

Sorry I thought that was a chart from jotul I wasn't paying attention. That what I get for posting while working

 

[Ditchmonkey]

I'm not sure how these pics will help as this is a numbers game, but this is what I'm working with.

 

[bholler]

I'm not sure how these pics will help as this is a numbers game, but this is what I'm working with.

I just looked through the manual and it clearly says 96" min and offers no spec for reduction so I don't think it is allowed. (Which to me is crazy for such a tiny stove but it looks like that is the requirement.)

 

[Ditchmonkey]

I just looked through the manual and it clearly says 96" min and offers no spec for reduction so I don't think it is allowed. (Which to me I'd crazy for such a tiny stove but it looks like that is the requirement.

Yeah It's crazy. Do you know how wide a space is before it is no longer considered an alcove?

 

[bholler]

Yeah It's crazy. Do you know how wide a space is before it is no longer considered an alcove?

I don't that would be a question for jotul. The fact that your sidewall doesn't go to the ceiling could possibly change things as well. But again that is a question for jotul

 

[Ditchmonkey]

Thanks for your help!

 

[BigVee]

Thanks for your help!

Ditchmonkey: Would you kindly share the outcome with your ceiling-clearance reduction issue? Am in the midst of same issue with ceiling clearance (in our case, with a Rais Q Tee 2 with Base, which states 45” clearance from top of appliance to combustible ceiling; our 78” ceiling causes us to fall short by 10”.) My initial question, like yours, had simply been the required *dimensions* of that ceiling heat shield, since we were proceeding with plans to install a non-combustible ceiling panel per NFPA 211 Chapter 13 guidelines (specifically, per Table 13.6.2.1(option f), Fig. 13.6.2.1(f), code 13.6.2.15, etc.) We had already reached out to our local town building inspector with the clearance situation, who instructed us to submit engineer/architect stamped drawing and materials list that reference the NFPA codes. Rais manual includes statement that, “It may be possible to reduce clearances to combustible walls using the methods detailed in NFPA 211. Seek guidance and permission in your locality as permits or inspections may be required.” Does Rais say “combustible walls” while really meaning “combustible surfaces” — including ceilings? Uh, boy. Reading and reckoning the manufacturer specs and NFPA guidelines are a challenging logic exercise!