Chimney needs repaired...ouch

[crater22]

Just had some company come out to give me a estimate on repairing my chimney as there are some cracks in the crown and some spalling. They tell me that there are spider cracks all down the chimney and it needs to be completely repaired with a new crown. Any idea of what I should expect as far as an estimate? It is on a ranch house. Here are a few pictures from the ground. I do not do heights very well.......

 

[Jo191145]

I've seen a lot worse.
Yes there's some spalling in the back and I'm sure there's spider cracks but it's really not that bad.
Get a second opinion. If funds are tight that chimney could be easily patched up and then waterproofed.

Without a doubt the best scenario is always a rebuild. Patching only lasts so long before the weather chews it up again.
The question becomes do a rebuild now or patch it for another ten years if lucky and do the rebuild then.

A good application of waterproofing will help greatly in keeping it together. They make some really good expensive epoxy type waterproofers. You can also just go with the cheap thompsons water seal and soak that thing heavy and repeatedly.

Back in the day Id charge you about 800- 900 bucks,,,,cash to do that full rebuild including new lead flashing. That was back in the day,,,,,,for cash. I would hope someone would be willing to do it today for $1200 or less.

Always ask for a cash price. These little private side jobs is where even fully licensed and insured masons make enough money to stay in business, hopefully without trying to get rich on one little job.

 

[crater22]

I've seen a lot worse.
Yes there's some spalling in the back and I'm sure there's spider cracks but it's really not that bad.
Get a second opinion. If funds are tight that chimney could be easily patched up and then waterproofed.

Without a doubt the best scenario is always a rebuild. Patching only lasts so long before the weather chews it up again.
The question becomes do a rebuild now or patch it for another ten years if lucky and do the rebuild then.

A good application of waterproofing will help greatly in keeping it together. They make some really good expensive epoxy type waterproofers. You can also just go with the cheap thompsons water seal and soak that thing heavy and repeatedly.

Back in the day Id charge you about 800- 900 bucks,,,,cash to do that full rebuild including new lead flashing. That was back in the day,,,,,,for cash. I would hope someone would be willing to do it today for $1200 or less.

Always ask for a cash price. These little private side jobs is where even fully licensed and insured masons make enough money to stay in business, hopefully without trying to get rich on one little job.

Wow, I was thinking in the 5,000.00-6,000.00 range. If I was to patch it , would I use something like regular mortar with a heavy dose of breathable water sealer? What about the cracks on the crown? Same deal with mortar or some type of caulk?

Thanks a lot for the info. I will see what the estimate is when he sends it to me....

 

[bholler]

I would say under $2000 i think $120 is a little low if he is going to pour a crown and rebuild from the roof line up. But absolutely do not use thompsons it will make the problem worse. I typically don't like using sealers they are a band aid that just attempt to cover up the real problem but if you do use something especially designed for exterior masonry. But if you have spalling brick i think its to late for sealer. I would cut out the bad brick repoint and do a crown. It doesn't really look like a complete rebuild

 

[Jo191145]

I would say under $2000 i think $120 is a little low if he is going to pour a crown and rebuild from the roof line up. But absolutely do not use thompsons it will make the problem worse. I typically don't like using sealers they are a band aid that just attempt to cover up the real problem but if you do use something especially designed for exterior masonry. But if you have spalling brick i think its to late for sealer. I would cut out the bad brick repoint and do a crown. It doesn't really look like a complete rebuild

Interesting. Why would you say thompsons will just make it worse?

There is some merit to your thought. Sealing masonry is never the best scenario. But in cases of old spalling brick chimneys sometimes it's the best option to save it for a few more years.

 

[bholler]

Interesting. Why would you say thompsons will just make it worse?

Because it does not breath well enough at all it will trap moisture and greatly accelerate the spalling. I have seen it enough times to know it is a bad idea to seal masonry with the wrong product. I agree that if there are no cracks in the masonry sealing can help a bit but if there are any cracks the sealer will not seal them and it will do nothing to stop water intrusion. And if you use the wrong sealer then you are trapping that moisture in the masonry which will tear it apart.

 

[crater22]

I would say under $2000 i think $120 is a little low if he is going to pour a crown and rebuild from the roof line up. But absolutely do not use thompsons it will make the problem worse. I typically don't like using sealers they are a band aid that just attempt to cover up the real problem but if you do use something especially designed for exterior masonry. But if you have spalling brick i think its to late for sealer. I would cut out the bad brick repoint and do a crown. It doesn't really look like a complete rebuild

Thanks, that is why I mentioned breathable. In another house that I was renting, the bricks were all over the yard after a good wind. I was told, and did, cover the entire chimney with mortar and seal with a special type of sealer sold at stove shops. Got a lot of complents on the job and it did do the job. At least for the two years that I stayed there after the job. Doing the whole thing in mortar look like a stucco job.

 

[Jo191145]

Wow, I was thinking in the 5,000.00-6,000.00 range. If I was to patch it , would I use something like regular mortar with a heavy dose of breathable water sealer? What about the cracks on the crown? Same deal with mortar or some type of caulk?

Thanks a lot for the info. I will see what the estimate is when he sends it to me....

Well if you ask around enough I'm sure you'll find somebody willing to charge you that much lol. And yes I worked cheap but it kept me busy.
Any good Mason will have a yard of new leftover bricks and mortar accumulated from bigger jobs. Technically these bricks are already paid for Sure we figure that stuff into the price but just how much money does one need to make in a day to make it worth their while to get out of bed.

Your crown seems quite minimal. That's me being nice. Very difficult to find a mason who pays enough attention to hand troweling a crown to its proper dimensions. It can be done correctly without building a form but it takes the will and expierience to learn how it's done.
It's also not a question I can truthfully answer from a photograph. Yes your crown is lacking in thickness but is chopping it off causing more damage to the chimney than it's worth? Can't really tell from a photo.
With a thin crown that's still relatively solid sometimes the best method is chisel it back from the edges and re crown over it correctly.

 

[crater22]

Well if you ask around enough I'm sure you'll find somebody willing to charge you that much lol. And yes I worked cheap but it kept me busy.
Any good Mason will have a yard of new leftover bricks and mortar accumulated from bigger jobs. Technically these bricks are already paid for Sure we figure that stuff into the price but just how much money does one need to make in a day to make it worth their while to get out of bed.

Your crown seems quite minimal. That's me being nice. Very difficult to find a mason who pays enough attention to hand troweling a crown to its proper dimensions. It can be done correctly without building a form but it takes the will and expierience to learn how it's done.
It's also not a question I can truthfully answer from a photograph. Yes your crown is lacking in thickness but is chopping it off causing more damage to the chimney than it's worth? Can't really tell from a photo.
With a thin crown that's still relatively solid sometimes the best method is chisel it back from the edges and re crown over it correctly.

He did mention he would build a form for the crown and extending over the chimney a little so it drips down instead of back into the seam.

 

[bholler]

With a thin crown that's still relatively solid sometimes the best method is chisel it back from the edges and re crown over it correctly.

That is typically what we do wit ha bond break between the new and old crown and around the liners. Yeah 5 to 6 thousand is way to much but i would not go cheap either the cheap option is often not a very good one and you will be paying to redo it later.

 

[bholler]

He did mention he would build a form for the crown and extending over the chimney a little so it drips down instead of back into the seam.

Good that is the way it should be done.

 

[bholler]

Thanks, that is why I mentioned breathable. In another house that I was renting, the bricks were all over the yard after a good wind. I was told, and did, cover the entire chimney with mortar and seal with a special type of sealer sold at stove shops. Got a lot of complents on the job and it did do the job. At least for the two years that I stayed there after the job. Doing the whole thing in mortar look like a stucco job.

We have done that also but we use wire mesh and fiberbond no need for sealer there either. It can look good also and many times it is a good option.

 

[Jo191145]

Because it does not breath well enough at all it will trap moisture and greatly accelerate the spalling. I have seen it enough times to know it is a bad idea to seal masonry with the wrong product. I agree that if there are no cracks in the masonry sealing can help a bit but if there are any cracks the sealer will not seal them and it will do nothing to stop water intrusion. And if you use the wrong sealer then you are trapping that moisture in the masonry which will tear it apart.

I agree with the sealing masonry and breath ability being an issue. No different than painting masonry. Might look good at first but your gonna hate doing it eventually.
Still years ago we used barrels of thompsons water seal on chimneys after patching to help keep them dry. The masonry below the roof line can still breathe. Stopping the masonry above the roofline from soaking up excess water will stop the spalling once it's begun.
I always had a little saying. Whatever damage (spalling) you see on the outside it's usually 80% worse inside.
There's only one way to stop the water from penetrating that brick face and soaking into those millions of tiny cracks and crevices inside that chimney. Keep them dry.

My theoretical analysis of the situation leads me to beleive the crown and top bricks should be fully saturated with sealer. The body of the chimney gets just one coat. This theoretically allows for wear of the sealer at the top where it gets the most weather.
There's nothing worse than a crown leaking water and the body of a chimney not breathing allowing it to dry out. That will,speed up the disintegration rapidly.

Your are correct its a temporary fix. I always advised the homeowner to redo it every two years till they get to the point they'd rather rebuild. It's up to them if they do so.
I can drive around my area and still see chimneys I've patched and waterproofed still in use. I haven't been on a roof for 15 years.

 

[bholler]

I agree with the sealing masonry and breath ability being an issue. No different than painting masonry. Might look good at first but your gonna hate doing it eventually.
Still years ago we used barrels of thompsons water seal on chimneys after patching to help keep them dry. The masonry below the roof line can still breathe. Stopping the masonry above the roofline from soaking up excess water will stop the spalling once it's begun.
I always had a little saying. Whatever damage (spalling) you see on the outside it's usually 80% worse inside.
There's only one way to stop the water from penetrating that brick face and soaking into those millions of tiny cracks and crevices inside that chimney. Keep them dry.
My theoretical analysis of the situation leads me to beleive the crown and top bricks should be fully saturated with sealer. The body of the chimney gets just one coat. This theoretically allows for wear of the sealer at the top where it gets the most weather.
There's nothing worse than a crown leaking water and the body of a chimney not breathing allowing it to dry out. That will,speed up the disintegration rapidly.
Your are correct its a temporary fix. I always advised the homeowner to redo it every two years till they get to the point they'd rather rebuild. It's up to them if they do so.
I can drive around my area and still see chimneys I've patched and waterproofed still in use. I haven't been on a roof for 15 years.

well we will agree to disagree. I strongly feel that it is not worth the waste of time and money to seal it. Just repair it correctly and it will stay dry without sealer. Now i do seal very porous materials like sandstone. But never brick

 

[Jo191145]

well we will agree to disagree. I strongly feel that it is not worth the waste of time and money to seal it. Just repair it correctly and it will stay dry without sealer. Now i do seal very porous materials like sandstone. But never brick

Yep we will agree to disagree. I have much respect for your opinion on this forum. You clearly have put much thought into your trade which is a rarity these days and something I personally hold in great reverence.
That's all any customer can ask of a tradesman.

While different masonry products have different absorption qualities it's still,all masonry and subject to the same laws of weather. When it's raining hard there's nothing above the roofline that stays dry

 

[jotul?]

I like to crown with concrete. Mortar is not structurally stable when it is used as a stand alone building material more than 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick. It does not have a large enough aggregate to allow for expansion / contraction when applied as a top coat. Quickcrete is nice for crowns because it is a happy medium between mortar and real concrete when taking aggregate size into consideration. The crown can be molded to 4 or 6 inches thick in the center around the flues if need be, then taken down to 1/2 inch thick out around the edge because Quickcrete uses pea gravel for aggregate. I do like to take that 1/2 inch thickness right to the edge of the brick, and yes I do like to seal the concrete with some good commercial concrete sealer. Not the brick though, it needs to breathe.

 

[bholler]

I like to crown with concrete. Mortar is not structurally stable when it is used as a stand alone building material more than 3/8 to 1/2 inch thick. It does not have a large enough aggregate to allow for expansion / contraction when applied as a top coat. Quickcrete is nice for crowns because it is a happy medium between mortar and real concrete when taking aggregate size into consideration. The crown can be molded to 4 or 6 inches thick in the center around the flues if need be, then taken down to 1/2 inch thick out around the edge because Quickcrete uses pea gravel for aggregate. I do like to take that 1/2 inch thickness right to the edge of the brick, and yes I do like to seal the concrete with some good commercial concrete sealer. Not the brick though, it needs to breathe.

we form and pour all of our crowns but your crowns sound about as good as it gets without forming them with an overhang

 

[Jo191145]

The edges of a crown I build is 3-4" inches thick. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on aesthetics and chimney size. Angled back of course. The angle is supposedly, by theory, to deflect wind up and away from the top of the flue.
Of course it requires a damn good consistent Mason tender to mix that concrete in such a fashion to accomplish this. I had the best.

Not to beat a dead horse but if a bricks ability to breathe was sufficient to prevent spalling we wouldn't know what spalling is

 

[bholler]

The edges of a crown I build is 3-4" inches thick. Sometimes more, sometimes less depending on aesthetics and chimney size. Angled back of course. The angle is supposedly, by theory, to deflect wind up and away from the top of the flue.
Of course it requires a damn good consistent Mason tender to mix that concrete in such a fashion to accomplish this. I had the best.

Yes but the reason we prefer to form an overhanging slab is to get the water away from the structure more. I have heard that reasoning about the angle before and i just dont buy it sorry. That is like the smoke shelf being there to prevent downdrafts. physics just doesn't back up those theory's.

 

[Jo191145]

As a mason I'm ill equipped to argue physics. Its more about asthetics. Up here in New England there's very few poured caps around. A spattering from the contemporary era but not too many. I did probably ten in twenty years.
Most customers up here would scream bloody hell if they saw a sidewalk on top of their chimney.

As for the smoke shelf we've had that discussion. The ability to build a real Rumford fireplace with a traditional damper is nill. Some of our inspectors will not sign off on a grandfathered design that's been changed. Others wouldn't know the difference but if you explain it to them they're likely to balk. As govt officials it's always easier to say no than to stick your neck out.
Flue top dampers are just not done in New England. Gotta give the customers what they want. I've seen one flue top damper in twenty years and the chain was broken.

There was a company that made Rumford dampers way back. Seen one but never used one. There was also a flue made with the Rumford design in mind. A 8"x16" if I remember correctly. I've used those once or twice when the concrete guy only gave us a 20" projection.

 

[crater22]

Well, received the estimate.----$3,200.00. Plus an additional $800.00 if I want them to replace the flashing....

Called another company for an estimate yesterday, but they have yet to return my phone call. In my book, that's not a good sign.

 

[claydogg84]

Well, received the estimate.----$3,200.00. Plus an additional $800.00 if I want them to replace the flashing....

Called another company for an estimate yesterday, but they have yet to return my phone call. In my book, that's not a good sign.

Get a few estimates.. Ask family & friends if they know a mason, and also check on Craigslist.

 

[bholler]

Well, received the estimate.----$3,200.00. Plus an additional $800.00 if I want them to replace the flashing....

wow that is high

 

[bholler]

Most customers up here would scream bloody hell if they saw a sidewalk on top of their chimney.

well you can do decorative forms it doesnt have to be a simple slab. But i do agree there are some chimneys that an overhanging crown does not look right on and i don't do it on them. As far as the smoke shelf goes it must be regional i never put in smoke shelves regardless of the fireplace design and have never failed an inspection we do them with both thought and top sealing dampers and they all work well and are much easier to clean. But if inspectors in your area require them then that is what you need to do.

 

[Jo191145]

Well, received the estimate.----$3,200.00. Plus an additional $800.00 if I want them to replace the flashing....

Called another company for an estimate yesterday, but they have yet to return my phone call. In my book, that's not a good sign.

I knew I used to work too cheap.

As someone mentioned. Time to start looking for referrals from friends and family.
You can always try your local building inspector also. Technically I do t think they're supposed to give referals but most will toss out a name with a wink and a smile.