Chimney Pipe ID???

[scotsman]

Is there some way to tell for what temperature the chimney pipe installed in my house is rated? I'm about to make a long, perilous journey across an inhospitable attic to try to learn the answer. Are there markings or stamped letters of some sort? Meanwhile, I'm continuing to search the Web for this info. Thanks--

 

[Pagey]

Look for a UL number, I believe.

 

[scotsman]

Look for a UL number, I believe.

Thanks! What UL number would indicate 2100 degree pipe?

 

[offroadaudio]

Research UL1777 - that has something to do with it.

 

[Pagey]

Look for a UL number, I believe.

Thanks! What UL number would indicate 2100 degree pipe?

Not 100% sure, but here's a pic of my stainless steel pipe:

 

[BrotherBart]

Edit: Dumb response omitted.

 

[fossil]

Pagey wasn't the OP...we're still waiting to hear back from Texas boy on what he found during his long, perilous journey across the inhospitable attic. I sure hope he's OK. How long do we wait before calling out the search parties? Rick

 

[Pagey]

According to the PDF located here: (broken link removed to http://www.hartandcooley.com/chimney/all_chimney.htm)
and here: (broken link removed to http://www.hartandcooley.com/chimney/chimney_catalog/851343) H&C; Model TLC Catalog - Edition 2.pdf

It has 100% mineral wool insulating fiber. But again, this is mine install, not the OP's.

 

[Pagey]

Also, that pipe in my pic is 8" diameter, forgot to mention that. But I'm not helping the OP, am I? :-/

 

[BrotherBart]

Pagey wasn't the OP...we're still waiting to hear back from Texas boy on what he found during his long, perilous journey across the inhospitable attic. I sure hope he's OK. How long do we wait before calling out the search parties? Rick

I am hanging it up for tonight. That is two posts in a row I read cross-eyed.

 

[scotsman]

<Gag!> <COUGH, COUGH!> (Dirt everywhere, and I do mean EVERYWHERE!)

Okay, y'all. I did survive the trip across the outer (inner?) reaches of an inhospitable attic, without stepping through the ceiling, but just barely. I sure hate to go up there!

From what I can tell, and I can't see all of the exposed pipe, it appears that we have an outer galvanized pipe of approximately 12" diameter. Tapping on the side produces an echo--kinda like the tin man in the Wizard of Oz, for you OLD people. I did not find any labels, like someone posted, but I sure looked! (Thanks for that photo!) Viewed from inside the firebox inside the house, we have what appears to be an 8" stainless steel inner pipe. Since it was snowing, 26 degrees with a 40+ mph wind with a 30 degree pitched roof, I did not go up to see what things looked like from that end. The roof is something I have to go on all fours under the very best circumstances.

Back to our story: Just as I finished this perilous journey and the inside inspection, I decided to call the dealer. He lives just north of me about 3 miles and happened to be near my house when I called. He came and explained that the piping is double wall with 8" stainless inside 11" galvanized with a 2+ inch airspace between. He drew sketches of a double wall pipe with vent holes all around the bottom of the outer pipe through which air is drawn and conducted up inside the outer pipe to the cap where it is released. He said this air both insulated the inner pipe from the cold outer air and carries off excess heat if needed.

I asked why he did not include a liner on his bids for the stove installation. He replied that the piping installed is more than adequate to handle the higher temps of a wood stove and would provide better draft than a 6" liner. Bottom line is that he has been installing this piping with airtights for more than 20 years with success. He stated that he has this precise arranagement in his house and has been burning a VC stove with this pipe for over than 8 years.

SO, with all that reported, what is the response of the "council"? Does this guy know what he's talking about or not? Is this arrangement sufficient to burn with safety for who knows how long into the future?

I cannot see us needing to burn 24/7 like a lot of y'all do in the winter. We'll burn more like from about 0600 to 2100 on cold days and let it die down during the night, then start it over again the next morning. Our cold is not as intense for as long at a time as a lot of you who live north, but we could burn during the day and then really low overnight for maybe two weeks at a stretch. So, it could happen, but not frequently.

Y'all's input is greatly appreciated and valued.

 

[jtp10181]

You have a prefab air cooled chimney... 99% of these manufactured are only listed for 1700 deg, not the required 2100 deg.

I prob could have told you all this just based off the model # of your prefab fireplace.

This guy is going to burn someone house down.

 

[scotsman]

You have a prefab air cooled chimney... 99% of these manufactured are only listed for 1700 deg, not the required 2100 deg.

I prob could have told you all this just based off the model # of your prefab fireplace.

This guy is going to burn someone house down.

Thanks so much for the information:
Speaking of the model--It's a CFM (Vermont Castings) SR36A.

Questions:
Is the firebox/chimney piping a package deal or could the chimney have been a separately installed item?
From the description of the pipe given:
--is this for sure a 1700 degree chimney?
--any idea what the UL number would be? (I've been looking, but without results so far.)
To accomodate the 2100 degree requirement, what SHOULD the configuration of the piping be if it had been installed at the time the FP was put in? (What is the physical difference in the piping for 2100 as opposed to 1700?)
Could the current piping be pulled out and the correct piping installed?
Will the installation of a 6" SS liner inside the current 8" SS inside pipe (creating a 2" airspace) make the current setup equal to a 2100 degree chimney?
Finally, if the stoves heat to a rough maximum of 600 to 800 degrees when operating--which seems a long way from either 1700 or 2100 degrees--what would cause the need for such a high temp requirement for the chimney pipe?

I'm needing second opinions here so I can understand what must be done and what parts I must get to make it the equivalent of the 2100 piping. Sure don't want to burn my new house down

Thanks to all who have contributed to my increasing knowledge base. I continue to study . . . !

 

[scotsman]

Look for a UL number, I believe.

Thanks! What UL number would indicate 2100 degree pipe?

Not 100% sure, but here's a pic of my stainless steel pipe:

is it an insulated pipe or does it have a dead air space for insulation?

Good photo of the pipe label!! Thanks!

From the description of the pipe given by the dealer who installed it, the inside pipe is 8" SS. The outer pipe is 11" galvanized. He said there is a 2" airspace between the two pipes.

How is the pipe you photographed constructed? Is it the 2100 degree type?

Thanks again!

 

[Pagey]

Look for a UL number, I believe.

Thanks! What UL number would indicate 2100 degree pipe?

Not 100% sure, but here's a pic of my stainless steel pipe:

is it an insulated pipe or does it have a dead air space for insulation?

Good photo of the pipe label!! Thanks!

From the description of the pipe given by the dealer who installed it, the inside pipe is 8" SS. The outer pipe is 11" galvanized. He said there is a 2" airspace between the two pipes.

How is the pipe you photographed constructed? Is it the 2100 degree type?

Thanks again!

Yes, the pipe in the photograph is type HT, which means it is rated for 2,100F. It is 8" diameter, and there is a layer of insulating fiber between the outer and inner layers which acts as insulation. Please find more information here: (broken link removed to http://www.hartandcooley.com/chimney/all_chimney.htm)

From their product catalog: Model TLC is safety-tested and
listed to applicable UL safety
standards for chimneys serving
solid-fuel and liquid-fuel appliances.
This includes UL 103.
This chimney system is designed for use on
appliances that use solid, liquid or gas fuels under
natural draft conditions.
Allowable flue gas temperatures are:
Type HT Non-HT
5" to 8" 10" to 14"
Maximum Continuous 1000°F 1000°F
Brief Forced Firing (1 hr.) 1400°F 1400°F
Creosote Burn-Out (10 min.) 2100°F 1700°F

 

[jtp10181]

Reasearching the fireplace right now, will report back shortly. Found a manual so far

(broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/2008/7412948_SR_SC_Series_A.pdf)

----

Ok... so you had two choices of chimney on that unit. the "SK8" or "MHSC". You have the SK8 because that's the double wall, the MHSC is triple wall.

The SK8 is UL Listed U-260,258 according to this document I found (broken link removed to http://www.vermontcastings.com/catalog/elements/files/Majestic_Wood.pdf)

I can't find any info on the MHSC pipe but if its the old Majestic triple wall I am thinking of I know its not 2100 deg rated.

The UL listing you need for a prefab pipe to be 2100 deg is UL-103HT which neither of those pipes is.

To have the install be safe you need to install a full 6" liner with a 1/2" insulation wrap on it. This makes the liner system meet UL-1777 which is what most wood inserts require and are tested for. Also since your prefab pipe is air cooled you need to keep the pipe system functioning as intended. You cannot block off the air chamber at the top of the pipe. You can either leave the bottom half of the cap in place which has the cooling vents or you can run the liner right through the top of the old cap and put the new one on top.

It does not matter how you use your stove, if you use it once a year or 24/7 all winter long. It was only tested by the specs in the install manual, if the installation deviates from this you are on un-tested ground. Some things may be fine forever and never cause a problem but you never really can know for sure. Eventually some day one of this guys customers is going to run their fireplace for a week straight full blast and start their attic on fire due to the pipe overheating. Or if someone has a massive chimney fire it could also start the house on fire.

 

[stovetechri]

good luck getting a 6" liner with 1/2 in isulation down an 8in pipe. but it would be very safe. dont try it or you be one pissed off individual.

 

[jtp10181]

good luck getting a 6" liner with 1/2 in isulation down an 8in pipe. but it would be very safe. dont try it or you be one pissed off individual.

We do it all the time, if you use the SS mesh and stretch it tight the thing just fits through. Cleans the chimney on its way down too.

 

[stovetechri]

good luck getting a 6" liner with 1/2 in isulation down an 8in pipe. but it would be very safe. dont try it or you be one pissed off individual.

We do it all the time, if you use the SS mesh and stretch it tight the thing just fits through. Cleans the chimney on its way down too.

Iill take your word for it hopefully there's no offset in it. do you do alot off insulated liners. I hate doing them. we hardly ever do em. It cost too much for the customer. Its soposed to help with draft and creosote

 

[jtp10181]

We insulate all liners, unless the customers chimney has passed a Level II inspection performed by a certified sweep (which no one has attempted yet). Without the insulation the liner does not meet UL-1777 and you rely on the old masonry or prefab system for the safty aspect of the flue. Everyone knows most masonry chimneys built in the past are not up to current codes (or probably not even the codes of that time).

If you don't give the customer the option of no insulation they don't know the difference, we just say this is the price for the liner system, period.

There is a trade off... a little extra expense and work getting the liner down, or the alternative is burning someone's house down. If you install enough liners not up to spec eventually it will happen.

 

[stovetechri]

how much do you charge for installation with 6" insulated liner (say 25ft with insert). and what do you do if you get to the house and the flue is 9x13 tile. thx

 

[scotsman]

We insulate all liners, unless the customers chimney has passed a Level II inspection performed by a certified sweep (which no one has attempted yet). Without the insulation the liner does not meet UL-1777 and you rely on the old masonry or prefab system for the safty aspect of the flue. Everyone knows most masonry chimneys built in the past are not up to current codes (or probably not even the codes of that time).

If you don't give the customer the option of no insulation they don't know the difference, we just say this is the price for the liner system, period.

There is a trade off... a little extra expense and work getting the liner down, or the alternative is burning someone's house down. If you install enough liners not up to spec eventually it will happen.

Whoa! Thanks for all the great info.

From what I can tell, there is some offset to this installation. As you face the FP from the room, the piping moves up and off to the left (east) about a foot or so, (this is the way it appears when seen from inside the FP as you lay on your back with your head in the FP looking upwards into the flue).

SO, assuming that the piping setup is as you say (and I have no reason to doubt it), is this liner with insulation something I can do myself? I spoke to the installing dealer about putting the liner in. He said I didn't need it and gave the impression that he would not do it for his own (he has this same FP in his house, or so he says!) and sees no need to do it for me. Since he's the only dealer in town, my options are limited, to say the least. Of course, living in the south, I have no experience with serious "heating with wood" other than my insert into a full masonry chimney in Austin, which did fine, but wasn't what I'd call "serious". Now, without a sturdy masonry chimney to rely upon, I feel like I need to check and double check and get second opinions on everything this installer tells me. After all it is MY house that could burn down, not his.

So, CAN I do this myself or will I be forced to "force" this installer to do it? I hate to insist that he do something he doesn't want to do, 'cause he's likely to over charge and not do a quality job. AND, when my stove comes (not bought from him--he wanted to sell me a DW--he's a VC dealer), I wanted his shop to check out the chimney and make sure everything was/is in top notch condition. What would you suggest in this situation? I hate to get on folks' bad side, but then I don't want my house catching fire either--I'm funny that way.

I know it's a bit of a trip, but how much would you charge to come here and do the liner install?

Thanks--

 

[stovetechri]

I'm still unconvinced that a 6" insulated liner will fit down an 8 " air cooled pipe. the liners I use measure almost 7" outside, now ad 1/2 " Insulation. I think it would be really tight. now variables like did the screw the sections together? IS THERE AN OFFSET? my shop would pull a permit install a full uninsulated liner and have the town inspector pass it. There not gonna look at pipe ul listings in a finished wall. What id like to do is have everybody install one of these cheap wood boxes and see how chinsy the pipe is and how it goes togeter. I would think if you put that heavy insulated pipe down, get stuck at an offset/screw, and push hard your chimney would fall apart. dont mean to scare you but i put these units it. these chimneys sk8 and others are pieces of S%^&. . Oh yeah another variable, the builder installed the fireplace and from the chase i look down and see wood almost touching the pipe! good luck id get a professional to do it you dont need the aggravation. WHAT A RANT thx

 

[fossil]

Maybe a little less sake with your sashimi, eh? Rick

 

[stovetechri]

Maybe a little less sake with your sashimi, eh? Rick

U like my shark fishin trip picture. he didn't catch nothing that day