"Clarification" of Effecta Boiler User

[stee6043]

"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"

I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs. Just askin........

Not true, Heaterman. Direct from the state of Michigan boiler code:

R 408.4047 Exempt boilers....
Rule 47. These rules do not apply to any of the following:
...
(h) A water tube or coil type hot water heating boiler requiring forced circulation not
exceeding any 1 of the following:
(i) Maximum water temperature of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
(ii) Relief valve set pressure of 30 psi.
(iii) Heat input of 200,000 BTU/hr.

I did a fair amount of reading before going forward with my EKO. There are pleny of non-ASME stamped boilers in operation in Michigan, legally, operating at 30psi or less.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_boiler_code_rules_print_version_2010_326957_7.pdf

Ste, It appears that H must be met. The EKO is not a water tube boiler, Randy

Define "water tube" boiler? The EKO uses HX tubes to transfer heat to water. I guess I don't know exactly what definition the state of Michigan proper intended here but since the words are not capitalized it leaves a bit up to interpretation. And as stated above...EKO's are being inspected and are passing in Michigan.

 

[woodsmaster]

A water tube is where the water being heated flowes threw the tubes to get heated.

A fire tube (eko) is where the hot flue gases flow threw the tubes to heat the water.

Water tubes can come in much larger sizes than the fire tube

 

[huffdawg]

EKO's are fire tube which means the hot exhaust gasses go through tubes surronded by water. water tube boilers are the opposite where water run through tubes that are surronded by the hot exhaust gasses.



Huff

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"

I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs. Just askin........

Not true, Heaterman. Direct from the state of Michigan boiler code:

R 408.4047 Exempt boilers....
Rule 47. These rules do not apply to any of the following:
...
(h) A water tube or coil type hot water heating boiler requiring forced circulation not
exceeding any 1 of the following:
(i) Maximum water temperature of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
(ii) Relief valve set pressure of 30 psi.
(iii) Heat input of 200,000 BTU/hr.

I did a fair amount of reading before going forward with my EKO. There are pleny of non-ASME stamped boilers in operation in Michigan, legally, operating at 30psi or less.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_boiler_code_rules_print_version_2010_326957_7.pdf

Ste, It appears that H must be met. The EKO is not a water tube boiler, Randy

Define "water tube" boiler? The EKO uses HX tubes to transfer heat to water. I guess I don't know exactly what definition the state of Michigan proper intended here but since the words are not capitalized it leaves a bit up to interpretation. And as stated above...EKO's are being inspected and are passing in Michigan.

A Greenwood is a watertube boiler. If the fire surrounds the outside of tubes filled with water you have a water tube boiler. The EKO is a firetube boiler. I am glad reason is prevailing there Stee. It would be nice if the code was rewritten though, Randy

 

[huffdawg]

"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"

I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs. Just askin........

Not true, Heaterman. Direct from the state of Michigan boiler code:

R 408.4047 Exempt boilers....
Rule 47. These rules do not apply to any of the following:
...
(h) A water tube or coil type hot water heating boiler requiring forced circulation not
exceeding any 1 of the following:
(i) Maximum water temperature of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
(ii) Relief valve set pressure of 30 psi.
(iii) Heat input of 200,000 BTU/hr.

I did a fair amount of reading before going forward with my EKO. There are pleny of non-ASME stamped boilers in operation in Michigan, legally, operating at 30psi or less.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_boiler_code_rules_print_version_2010_326957_7.pdf

Ste, It appears that H must be met. The EKO is not a water tube boiler, Randy

Define "water tube" boiler? The EKO uses HX tubes to transfer heat to water. I guess I don't know exactly what definition the state of Michigan proper intended here but since the words are not capitalized it leaves a bit up to interpretation. And as stated above...EKO's are being inspected and are passing in Michigan.

Seems like the above statement is stating that watertube boilers with a relief valve setting above 30 psi and temps that run above 200 °F or put out more than 200,000 btu's are not legal.

 

[huffdawg]

How long has the effecta lambada boiler been in production Brian?

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

"Yes, I am a Mechanical Engineer who has overseen the design and installation of numerous wood gasification boiler systems (in Michigan) using water storage"

I'm curious as to how you are getting around installing a non ASME rated pressurized boiler here in Michigan? If there is a "loophole" around the code I would love to hear it. As you know, it is illegal to install a non ASME rated boiler for use in a pressurized system here and that can raise a lot of problems with insurance if an "incident" occurs. Just askin........

Not true, Heaterman. Direct from the state of Michigan boiler code:

R 408.4047 Exempt boilers....
Rule 47. These rules do not apply to any of the following:
...
(h) A water tube or coil type hot water heating boiler requiring forced circulation not
exceeding any 1 of the following:
(i) Maximum water temperature of 200 degrees Fahrenheit.
(ii) Relief valve set pressure of 30 psi.
(iii) Heat input of 200,000 BTU/hr.

I did a fair amount of reading before going forward with my EKO. There are pleny of non-ASME stamped boilers in operation in Michigan, legally, operating at 30psi or less.

http://www.michigan.gov/documents/dleg/dleg_bcc_boiler_code_rules_print_version_2010_326957_7.pdf

Ste, It appears that H must be met. The EKO is not a water tube boiler, Randy

Define "water tube" boiler? The EKO uses HX tubes to transfer heat to water. I guess I don't know exactly what definition the state of Michigan proper intended here but since the words are not capitalized it leaves a bit up to interpretation. And as stated above...EKO's are being inspected and are passing in Michigan.

Seems like the above statement is stating that watertube boilers with a relief valve setting above 30 psi and temps that run above 200 °F or put out more than 200,000 btu's are not legal.

No, water tube boilers are exempt from the many rules that are in place. A hobby locomotiove boiler needs to be inspected. lol, Randy

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Well, hasn't this thread taken a merry waltz around the park...

If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I don’t believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressureâ€. The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level.

I assume the definition of pressurized means that as the temperature rises in the system the pressure also rises proportionally because the system is sealed. As you say, the Garn has LIMITED pressure according to how tall it is and that pressure does not change with system temperature. Same with the expansion tank in the attic scenario.

Now that I have actually read the code for Mich, you are correct. I couldn't find it with a Google search. While this is not unpressurized, they will disregard the static starting pressure, Randy

 

[heaterman]

Back in the office........

The issue that I have had raised is not with the boiler division. It's in the Mechanical code where section 1004.1 says,

"Boilers shall be designed and constructed in accordance with the requirements of ASME CSD-1 and as applicable, the ASME boiler and pressure vessel code, sections I, II,V and IX; NFPA8502 or NFPA8504

Any boiler that I install as a contractor has to have a mechanical inspection, higher output units or commercial type applications have to have the boiler inspector look at them also.

 

[heaterman]

Well, hasn't this thread taken a merry waltz around the park...

If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I don’t believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressureâ€. The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level.

I assume the definition of pressurized means that as the temperature rises in the system the pressure also rises proportionally because the system is sealed. As you say, the Garn has LIMITED pressure according to how tall it is and that pressure does not change with system temperature. Same with the expansion tank in the attic scenario.

Now that I have actually read the code for Mich, you are correct. I couldn't find it with a Google search. While this is not unpressurized, they will disregard the static starting pressure, Randy

The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".

 

[hobbyheater]

The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".

The circulator in my open system gives a 1 psi increase when turned on. 35 gpm through 12 ft 1" copper .

 

[Singed Eyebrows]

Well, hasn't this thread taken a merry waltz around the park...

If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I don’t believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressureâ€. The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level.

I assume the definition of pressurized means that as the temperature rises in the system the pressure also rises proportionally because the system is sealed. As you say, the Garn has LIMITED pressure according to how tall it is and that pressure does not change with system temperature. Same with the expansion tank in the attic scenario.

Now that I have actually read the code for Mich, you are correct. I couldn't find it with a Google search. While this is not unpressurized, they will disregard the static starting pressure, Randy

The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".

Heaterman, have you heard of owners in Mich. that have been told to discontinue use of a pressure boiler that wasn't ASME? It appears the inspectors are being reasonable, Randy

 

[stee6043]

Looks like I got lucky on this one. Although there are plenty of inspectors out there that do not know boiler code if in fact we don't qualify. Ignorance is bliss I suppose.

 

[heaterman]

Well, hasn't this thread taken a merry waltz around the park...

If the code says unpressurized I wonder if a boiler with 10 psi on it because of a high mount attic tank would pass? I don’t believe any of the codes say"not able to develop pressureâ€. The Garn will only have limited pressure at floor level.

I assume the definition of pressurized means that as the temperature rises in the system the pressure also rises proportionally because the system is sealed. As you say, the Garn has LIMITED pressure according to how tall it is and that pressure does not change with system temperature. Same with the expansion tank in the attic scenario.

Now that I have actually read the code for Mich, you are correct. I couldn't find it with a Google search. While this is not unpressurized, they will disregard the static starting pressure, Randy

The issue is not so much that fact that there is pressure in the system but rather that it is sealed/closed. A circulator will cause a pressure rise in certain parts of the system even if it's "open".

Heaterman, have you heard of owners in Mich. that have been told to discontinue use of a pressure boiler that wasn't ASME? It appears the inspectors are being reasonable, Randy

Only a couple and that was only because the inspector was involved in the first place. I did not hear the end result in either case as both are far away from my location. It seems that the people in charge do not understand, or choose to ignore the fact that 95% of these units are installed with no permit applied for and therefore no inspection.
People who burn wood are a resourceful and crafty lot and most install their boiler with no contractor or other professional involvement. (Witness the success of this forum) Nearly all of these things go in with no inspection whatsoever and problems only surface when there is an insurance claim made and no payout is forthcoming.

 

[goosegunner]

At times it makes going back to an OWB tempting. No worry of insurance or loss other than the boiler sitting out in the yard or field.

Guess that is why they are so appealing to many, basically hassle free.

Gg

 

[heaterman]

At times it makes going back to an OWB tempting. No worry of insurance or loss other than the boiler sitting out in the yard or field.

Guess that is why they are so appealing to many, basically hassle free.

Gg

Nothing in life is free.
That lack of hassle comes at the cost of excessive air pollution and poor efficiency plus the fact that we have the EPA involved in our lives because of said "lack of hassle".

 

[goosegunner]

At times it makes going back to an OWB tempting. No worry of insurance or loss other than the boiler sitting out in the yard or field.

Guess that is why they are so appealing to many, basically hassle free.

Gg

Nothing in life is free.
That lack of hassle comes at the cost of excessive air pollution and poor efficiency plus the fact that we have the EPA involved in our lives because of said "lack of hassle".

Don't get me wrong I enjoy my set up with storage. I do get a lot of strange looks from people I know that use owb's. When I explain that I heat for a day on the equivalent weight of 2 13" diameter pieces of oak, all they say is "but you have to split your wood"

They would rather stuff their 40 cubic foot firebox with 10-12 of the same pieces than split 2.


gg