Clean-Out Surprise?

[fireitup]

Hi all, looking for an experienced assessment of my first post-ton clean-out. Been burning Chow almost exclusively. Firebox must be cleaned every 3 days, maybe 4 if I push it. The ash inside is good and fluffy, dark grey, definitely not black. The other day after my routine clean, she fired right up as usual, BUT the convection blower would not come on. I waited patiently with a good, clean flame going for a full 10 minutes or so, but the blower would not kick in. When I hit the High Fan button I could "hear" the extra voltage go to the fan, but no go. So I figured, let's pull the stove out and not only clean the 2 blowers, but clean out the tee as well. I was through approximately 48 bags at that point. The tee was "packed" full all the way up to the back of the snout! The ash was noticeably finer than the firebox ash I vac every 3 days, and lighter in color, like a mouse-grey. Cleaned all that out, into the stove and up the liner with the vac. Don't own a brush yet, but its on my priority list. So here's my question to the experts: That amount of ash after a ton burned is A) quite normal, B) unusual, but not uncommon, or C) something is very wrong! Yes, the stove ran perfectly fine after everything was cleaned. I was surprised that the tee could get that full and see or smell no smoke at all. Not until the CV fan wouldn't come on did I know I had a problem.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Interesting, sounds like crap pellets to me...

What I do and you can too (if you can access your combustion products channel from the inside (like I can on my USSC 6039 HF) is, I take a length od 3/4" diameter garden hose about 2 feet long with one end taper cut and the other end shoved into the reducer coupling on my shop vac and shove it down the combustion gas channel (pipe) that goes to the combution blower, with the shop vac on and suck out the combustion channel to the fan. My fan is offset so no worry about hitting the blades. That and the leaf blower scenario on the cleanout Tee a couple times a year takes care of my ash issues.

The ash will be finer in the combustion gas pipe and outside venting (cleanout Tee) because that ash is lighter in weight than the ash in your ash drawer and firebox area. The heavier stuff drops the lighter stuff is carried in the combustion gas, through the fan and into the venting, where it deposits.

 

[chken]

Hi all, looking for an experienced assessment of my first post-ton clean-out. Been burning Chow almost exclusively. Firebox must be cleaned every 3 days, maybe 4 if I push it. The ash inside is good and fluffy, dark grey, definitely not black. The other day after my routine clean, she fired right up as usual, BUT the convection blower would not come on. I waited patiently with a good, clean flame going for a full 10 minutes or so, but the blower would not kick in. When I hit the High Fan button I could "hear" the extra voltage go to the fan, but no go. So I figured, let's pull the stove out and not only clean the 2 blowers, but clean out the tee as well. I was through approximately 48 bags at that point. The tee was "packed" full all the way up to the back of the snout! The ash was noticeably finer than the firebox ash I vac every 3 days, and lighter in color, like a mouse-grey. Cleaned all that out, into the stove and up the liner with the vac. Don't own a brush yet, but its on my priority list. So here's my question to the experts: That amount of ash after a ton burned is A) quite normal, B) unusual, but not uncommon, or C) something is very wrong! Yes, the stove ran perfectly fine after everything was cleaned. I was surprised that the tee could get that full and see or smell no smoke at all. Not until the CV fan wouldn't come on did I know I had a problem.

How long is your vent? It may be that your vent is at the limit of what is recommended, thus requiring more full vent cleanings before a ton, or a larger diameter vent. Since you're venting into a masonry fireplace, I'll assume that your vent is on the longish side so that you probably need to clean more often than every ton.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Never been fond of an insert vent arrangement. Seems way too hard to clean and all stove venting needs cleaning. I want to be able to access the cleanout Tee and vent pipe.My rule of thumb is, anything over 6 lineal feet needs to go to 4" vent an thats horizontal or vertical.

 

[alternativeheat]

Hi all, looking for an experienced assessment of my first post-ton clean-out. Been burning Chow almost exclusively. Firebox must be cleaned every 3 days, maybe 4 if I push it. The ash inside is good and fluffy, dark grey, definitely not black. The other day after my routine clean, she fired right up as usual, BUT the convection blower would not come on. I waited patiently with a good, clean flame going for a full 10 minutes or so, but the blower would not kick in. When I hit the High Fan button I could "hear" the extra voltage go to the fan, but no go. So I figured, let's pull the stove out and not only clean the 2 blowers, but clean out the tee as well. I was through approximately 48 bags at that point. The tee was "packed" full all the way up to the back of the snout! The ash was noticeably finer than the firebox ash I vac every 3 days, and lighter in color, like a mouse-grey. Cleaned all that out, into the stove and up the liner with the vac. Don't own a brush yet, but its on my priority list. So here's my question to the experts: That amount of ash after a ton burned is A) quite normal, B) unusual, but not uncommon, or C) something is very wrong! Yes, the stove ran perfectly fine after everything was cleaned. I was surprised that the tee could get that full and see or smell no smoke at all. Not until the CV fan wouldn't come on did I know I had a problem.

Stove Chows are very ashy. They run nice and hot but they are ashy. There are worst pellets for ash out there but non the less thy are very ashy. Ashy pellets require more frequent cleaning of the whole system. Think about it, if a known low ash pellet has a cleaning record of once a month and Chows have three times the ash in them ( and they do) then how often should you clean the entire system by comparison ? Of course it's not quite that cut and dry but not such a bad guide either.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Heavy ash is usually indicative of the quality of wood fibers the pelletizer is using and their control of imput. The best pellets I ever burned came from a pelletizer in morthern Kentucky that was near a furniture factory and got all their materials from the factory scrap, which, was mostly hardwood, hence, the pellets were very high quality and low ash content. Higher ash content pellets are usually mixed input such as old pallets and crating or lumber mill scrap and mostly softwoods.

One thing I've learned over the years and that is, even if the bag states PFI Certified low ash content, it don't always mean thats a truthful statement simply because the certification is a blanket certification with testing at a fixed point and production can vary from day to day.

 

[Wilbur Feral]

For comparison, I burn 3 ton / year in a Quad MVAE freestanding with a 3" vent that's right at 15' EVL. Other stove is an old Whitfield Quest insert that burns about 2.5 tons and has a 4" vent with an EVL of 22'. You're getting more ash in one ton than I see all season, by far. Check your EVL first, as you may be over 15', which is not good at all. I have an earlier post from last week that explains how to calculate it so just search for that.

Pellets here are Pres-to-logs for about 2/3 of the season (each shoulder) and Hamer's Hot Ones in the coldest months. Presto's are ashier than Hamer's, but from my experience Chow is one of the worst I've burned for ash, and from my experience not as hot as Presto's. Only things worse have been AWF, Nature's Own, and perhaps one or two others I'm forgetting. If you're stuck with Chows due to a large inventory, then clean every half ton or so. If you can switch to a less ashy pellet, that might be your less labor intensive solution.

The hose idea mentioned works well for cleaning, although you might need something even smaller depending on the stove. I use a piece of 1/2" (outer diameter) tubing with an adaptor to the vac to get in to really small areas. And definitely buy a pellet brush. Rutland makes a good one you can buy from a local shop or, if none are nearby, Amazon. The keaf blower trick, after cleaning out a majority of the ash via simple vacuuming, can also help.

 

[SidecarFlip]

When I did my latest install (about 11 years ago), I jumped right to 4" with a 3-4 cleanout Tee at the horizontal to vertical transition. I'm over 15 feet EVL in just the vertical, not adding in the horizontal. Couple side benefits of 4 versus 3, the most apparent is natural draft when and if the power goes out or on shutdown with residual, smoky pellets in the pot. 4" gves good natural draft whereas 3 is marginal. Of course 4" costs more initially but considering venting life, the additional cost is inconsequential.

I get all my venting and accessories at (broken link removed) good folks, quick shipping.

 

[fireitup]

Thanks all, knew I would get great feedback. I'm using a 3-4 Tee and approx. 25ft vertical 4" liner straight up the flue. One thing I did not mention, and thought of it now because of all your comments; on the Tee, about 1 foot above where the 4" liner clamps in, I had to "squash" the liner to more of a rectangular shape to get the insert deep enough into the hearth where the surround is now nice and flush. To re-shape that small area of the liner I used 2 pieces of particle board and a 6" C-clamp, to compress it slowly and evenly, so as not to damage the integrity of the liner. The rectangular shape is only about 8" in length before opening back up to full 4" diameter. This little bit of restriction is probably not helping any, but I have no smell or smoke at all, and the stove is running great otherwise. Looks like I'll start playing with better quality pellets and will need to do a clean-out every 35-40 bags or so. No big deal...

 

[SidecarFlip]

One thing I'm curious about and that is, how hard is it to access the cleanout Tee? I presume it's in behind the appliance. Is it readily accessable? Thats the one thing that totally turned me off concerning an insert, any insert, is accessability. We have a fireplace that I keep sealed up just so there is no parasitic heat loss up the flue. Fireplaces are negative heat producers, just ask George Washington (if you could...) a fireplace in every room and the only place it was warm was directly in front from radiant heat. Everything else was going up the flue and keeping the birds on the roof, warm.

 

[alternativeheat]

When I did my latest install (about 11 years ago), I jumped right to 4" with a 3-4 cleanout Tee at the horizontal to vertical transition. I'm over 15 feet EVL in just the vertical, not adding in the horizontal. Couple side benefits of 4 versus 3, the most apparent is natural draft when and if the power goes out or on shutdown with residual, smoky pellets in the pot. 4" gves good natural draft whereas 3 is marginal. Of course 4" costs more initially but considering venting life, the additional cost is inconsequential.

I get all my venting and accessories at (broken link removed) good folks, quick shipping.

Yes online is good, I like feeding local people but man I took a tuckin on the venting from my dealer. Bad. And talk about brushes and rods for them, this guy wanted $20 for a single section of 5', 1/4" Rutland rod.

One thing I'm curious about and that is, how hard is it to access the cleanout Tee? I presume it's in behind the appliance. Is it readily accessable? Thats the one thing that totally turned me off concerning an insert, any insert, is accessability. We have a fireplace that I keep sealed up just so there is no parasitic heat loss up the flue. Fireplaces are negative heat producers, just ask George Washington (if you could...) a fireplace in every room and the only place it was warm was directly in front from radiant heat. Everything else was going up the flue and keeping the birds on the roof, warm.

The day we looked at the house we live in before purchase back in 1977 the woman who owned it had a fire going in the fireplace. It was January and you literally could feel the cold air passing your face on it's way to the fireplace. We were in the house maybe a month when I decided to build the first stove. A wood stove with block off plate. I later built a coal stove ( hey you could do that stuff in those days) and that stove is the one I replaced with the P61. Fireplaces are more than 100% useless as a source of heat on their own. But we came really close to putting in a pellet insert before I came to my senses. I mean I'm 65 now not 25 and the next decades are going to get more difficult to be messing with sliding out things like heavy inserts, not easier. I have prolapse in my butt as is, I don't need my inner rectum hanging into my underwear besides. The doc says don't get constipated and don't do squat and grunt things. well guess what you do to clean an insert, they don't pull out by pushing a button just yet.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I'm no 'spring chicken' either, I'm as old as you are and semi retired (I own a business and have employees) so thats always hands on it seems. No health issues other than an old body that don't work as good as it used to. I still get out and work manually, have to, I farm as a hobby sort of. Farming has become a hobby for most every farmer today. I was curious about an insert (any insert pertaining to cleaning). They look cumbersome and a PITA to deal with.

I lke to deal with local vendors too, supporting your local business (especially in a small town like I live near is always good) but some things are better bought on line and venting is one in my view. It's pretty expensive to begin with so if you can reduce the markup a bit, thats more money left in your pocket for 'other things'.

I believe if I had an insert, I'd have it mounted on some type of a slide in/slide out arrangement with a motorized screw arrangement for 'push button' movement. Might not be asthetically correct but certainly 'old timer' correct.

 

[fireitup]

I've described my first clean-out here, and here's how it went according to my genius plan LOL! Remove the surround (few screws), my son and I lift the insert straight up only a few inches, and the wife slides a nice, thick piece of corrugated cardboard underneath as far back as it will go. Put the insert down, slide that baby out of the hearth, turn it sideways a bit and have full access to the Tee. Maybe a half an hour total including the re-install, and that was our first attempt. Would I rather be cleaning a stand-alone...you bet, but my unused fireplace was the logical way to go. Already thinking about a stand-alone next season at the other end of the house. We'll wait and see how this OPEC/North American oil battle pans out!

 

[SidecarFlip]

Why not blank off the front of the fireplace entirely with a sheet of light gage steel, lag screwed to the facia and sealed with rope gasket. The blanking plate could then be hole sawed (bi-metal hole saw) or plasma cut to accept a 3" vent pipe and free stand a stove on the hearth bed with the cleanout Tee behind the stove itself. You could theoritically leave the exhaust end proud of the blanking plate and allow it to exhaust into the hearth, sealing the opening between the vent pipe and the blanking plate with either RTV or refractory cement. Maybe, just maybe pulling everything out every 5 years or so clean the hearth bed. Stove to blanking plate distance predicated on the size of the hearth bed itself, but allowing enough room for the transition coupler and cleanout Tee.

If I did it, thats they way I'd approach it and let the natural flue exhaust the combustion gases.

Inserts just look (to me) like way too much grief andf free standers are cheaper.

 

[alternativeheat]

I'm no 'spring chicken' either, I'm as old as you are and semi retired (I own a business and have employees) so thats always hands on it seems. No health issues other than an old body that don't work as good as it used to. I still get out and work manually, have to, I farm as a hobby sort of. Farming has become a hobby for most every farmer today. I was curious about an insert (any insert pertaining to cleaning). They look cumbersome and a PITA to deal with.

I lke to deal with local vendors too, supporting your local business (especially in a small town like I live near is always good) but some things are better bought on line and venting is one in my view. It's pretty expensive to begin with so if you can reduce the markup a bit, thats more money left in your pocket for 'other things'.

I believe if I had an insert, I'd have it mounted on some type of a slide in/slide out arrangement with a motorized screw arrangement for 'push button' movement. Might not be asthetically correct but certainly 'old timer' correct.

My retirement was a bit forced but also timely. The company was very good, with 44 years in they treated me very well but it was time for us both to move on. At 65 maintaining a heavy truck fleet alone was ridiculous but their ultimate plan was to bring in a service anyway ( I was the last standing man in a company with 17 locations where mechanics had been phased out).. But after being really sick last year they held it off till I was up and running and feeling great. tHey even threw me a breakfast bash, so I appreciate all that.

Anyway, Harman and I want to say Quad have their inserts on sliding rails. The stove separates from the back frame and exhaust. You can brush right through that with no pipe disconnect as I understand it, at least in the case of Harman. So the pipe is connected to this back outlet in the frame and the stove is locked to that frame when you slide it back in. Pretty slick. But I didn't want the pulling aspect of any of it in the end. Not once how I saw how easy a P series Harman is to clean. It's almost ridiculously easy.

 

[SidecarFlip]

I can pretty much tell you how the OPEC versus Domestic oil scenario will pan out. We will become (are already there) a exporter of crude but, prices will be artificially manipulated to ensure that fuel prices remain artificially high to line the pockets of entities that benefit from the taxes. Thats how it will work. We ain't the land of Hugo Shavez where gasoline and diesel is 5 cents a gallon.

 

[alternativeheat]

Why not blank off the front of the fireplace entirely with a sheet of light gage steel, lag screwed to the facia and sealed with rope gasket. The blanking plate could then be hole sawed (bi-metal hole saw) or plasma cut to accept a 3" vent pipe and free stand a stove on the hearth bed with the cleanout Tee behind the stove itself. You could theoritically leave the exhaust end proud of the blanking plate and allow it to exhaust into the hearth, sealing the opening between the vent pipe and the blanking plate with either RTV or refractory cement. Maybe, just maybe pulling everything out every 5 years or so clean the hearth bed. Stove to blanking plate distance predicated on the size of the hearth bed itself, but allowing enough room for the transition coupler and cleanout Tee.

If I did it, thats they way I'd approach it and let the natural flue exhaust the combustion gases.

Inserts just look (to me) like way too much grief andf free standers are cheaper.

Most people put the plate above the fireplace. Also top the chimney. The liner runs down the chimney through the block off plate to a clean out T. The T has a short pipe to the stove which is placed out on the hearth. Me I ran my liner up through heavy packed insulation with no plate. I capped the top. My stove is on the hearth runs 18" to the T.

My coal stove though was done the way you describe, I ran it like that for more than 30 years.

 

[SidecarFlip]

Most people put the plate above the fireplace. Also top the chimney. The liner runs down the chimney through the block off plate to a clean out T. The T has a short pipe to the stove which is placed out on the hearth. Me I ran my liner up through heavy packed insulation with no plate. I capped the top. My stove is on the hearth runs 18" to the T.

My coal stove though was done the way you describe, I ran it like that for more than 30 years.

And coal produces much more ash (fly and collectable in the ash pan) than any pellet or corn burner will ever produce. You have a nice refractory lined flue why not use it? If the ingresst o the blanking plate is say, 12" off the hearth floor, considering how much fly as is produced, you might go a decade without any maintenance behind the plate and keep in mind that the 'sucking' effect of the refractory flue will exhaust all but the heaviest of the fly ash.

In my unqualified opinion (I'm not a certified installer so I have no idea of the parameters concerning the use of a flex vent in an existing refractory flue), I would think that a flex vent up a flue should only be necessary if, the existing flue is compromised in some way. A serviceable and smoke tight refractory flue (In my opinion) is much more viable than any flex pipe.

I'd do it like that in a second and never look back. Besides, a free standing stove looks good. An insert don't, or at least the ones I've seen don't.

 

[alternativeheat]

And coal produces much more ash (fly and collectable in the ash pan) than any pellet or corn burner will ever produce. You have a nice refractory lined flue why not use it? If the ingresst o the blanking plate is say, 12" off the hearth floor, considering how much fly as is produced, you might go a decade without any maintenance behind the plate and keep in mind that the 'sucking' effect of the refractory flue will exhaust all but the heaviest of the fly ash.

In my unqualified opinion (I'm not a certified installer so I have no idea of the parameters concerning the use of a flex vent in an existing refractory flue), I would think that a flex vent up a flue should only be necessary if, the existing flue is compromised in some way. A serviceable and smoke tight refractory flue (In my opinion) is much more viable than any flex pipe.

I'd do it like that in a second and never look back. Besides, a free standing stove looks good. An insert don't, or at least the ones I've seen don't.

With coal in the old days it worked to just run to the other side of the plate into the fireplace. You could pull the plate after a few years actually and just shovel out the ash. I doubt today that would pass inspection but it did once upon a time. With wood no way, you got to get the exhaust up into the flue of the chimney and keep the gasses hot. Otherwise it cools and builds seriously dangerous creosote, even from a pellet stove. Then you crank the stove up one day and whooof, chimney fire..

Some installs allow to go just above the plate above the fireplace into a refractory lined chimney, other manufactures don't allow for that. Assuming a good lined chimney. I wouldn't call mine a good lined chimney, so I lined it with stainless. It was over due for that.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The leave the liner in and connect it with a rigid length sticking out of the plate with a cleanout tee on the accessable side like I said previously. I must say I've never experienced and creosote formatioin in my venting and I run ny stove on low fire during temerate months for extended periods. on pellets. Corn is for cold months...

ZNot fond of a flex liner in any situation. Too many 'nooks and crannies' inside to capture fly ash. Smooth bore is better at least in my view.

 

[checkthisout]

The larger diameter pipe probably makes the ash problem worse because it's slowing down the air velocity so more ash is falling out of the airstream instead of being carried up and out of the chimney.

Burning on lower settings also has the same effect...more ash due to lower temps and less velocity in the stack due to lower temps and combustion blower speed.

Also not cleaning the stove everyday generally lets more ash get sucked out of the exhaust as ash piles up in traps etc.

 

[SidecarFlip]

The larger diameter pipe probably makes the ash problem worse because it's slowing down the air velocity so more ash is falling out of the airstream instead of being carried up and out of the chimney.

I'll disagree with that premise, you want the ash to fall out, not come out the end of the venting (along with possibly sparks) and, every manufacturer will state in their manuals and installation instructions that the use of 4" vent over a stated number of lineal feet is recommended...why" because 3" standard venting constricts the combution gasses too much for a longer run whether it's vertical or horizontal makes no difference.