Considering a Keystone or Tribute

[Stump_Branch]

Have you also looked at the palladian? I believe it and the keystone are the same. Someone correct me if im wrong

 

[Jack22]

I am a very happy Keystone owner. This is my first wood stove and I could not be happier. I have been burning in mine for about two weeks now. Last night I loaded mine up at 10 pm went to work and when I returned home at 9 AM I had plenty of coals to start another fire. That was with a mix of hard woods. I can not wait to see my burn time when I fill the stove with my well seasoned black locust. Something to keep in mind with the keystone since you are working with a smaller space is that if you use 6 inch pipe instead of the 7 that is in the owners manual you are required to have an extra 2 inches of hearth in front of the stove. This is something I found out the hard way after I built my hearth. You wont find that info in the owners manual but if you call Woodstock one of there customer service members will let you know about it assuming that this rule has not changed. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

 

[Todd]

I am a very happy Keystone owner. This is my first wood stove and I could not be happier. I have been burning in mine for about two weeks now. Last night I loaded mine up at 10 pm went to work and when I returned home at 9 AM I had plenty of coals to start another fire. That was with a mix of hard woods. I can not wait to see my burn time when I fill the stove with my well seasoned black locust. Something to keep in mind with the keystone since you are working with a smaller space is that if you use 6 inch pipe instead of the 7 that is in the owners manual you are required to have an extra 2 inches of hearth in front of the stove. This is something I found out the hard way after I built my hearth. You wont find that info in the owners manual but if you call Woodstock one of there customer service members will let you know about it assuming that this rule has not changed. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

I never heard of this extra 2" hearth rule, did they ever state the reason why? I've asked them many times which pipe size is better for the Keystone since I rebuilt my chimney's and they always told me either one is fine and never mentioned this. I could see how it might effect the rear clearances but how would it effect the front?

I'm also impressed with my little stove's. Last night I had a good 10 hour burn with a full load of half punky Oak. Looks like I will be burning 24/7 soon and this small stove has no problems keeping up.

 

[leeave96]

I am a very happy Keystone owner. This is my first wood stove and I could not be happier. I have been burning in mine for about two weeks now. Last night I loaded mine up at 10 pm went to work and when I returned home at 9 AM I had plenty of coals to start another fire. That was with a mix of hard woods. I can not wait to see my burn time when I fill the stove with my well seasoned black locust. Something to keep in mind with the keystone since you are working with a smaller space is that if you use 6 inch pipe instead of the 7 that is in the owners manual you are required to have an extra 2 inches of hearth in front of the stove. This is something I found out the hard way after I built my hearth. You wont find that info in the owners manual but if you call Woodstock one of there customer service members will let you know about it assuming that this rule has not changed. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

I never heard of this extra 2" hearth rule, did they ever state the reason why? I've asked them many times which pipe size is better for the Keystone since I rebuilt my chimney's and they always told me either one is fine and never mentioned this. I could see how it might effect the rear clearances but how would it effect the front?

I'm also impressed with my little stove's. Last night I had a good 10 hour burn with a full load of half punky Oak. Looks like I will be burning 24/7 soon and this small stove has no problems keeping up.

+1 on the 2 inches - I've never heard of it either. Not knocking Woodstock or comparing them from some of the ill informed shoot from the hip say anything dealers and sweeps I've ran across in my neck of the woods, but there have been a couple of times I've got comflicting info in two different calls with two different folks. I think they would err on the side of being conservative. Bottom line is they need to update their manuals for the Keystone to show the 6 inch pipe and any fall out from using it.


BTW, don't know if I've ever said this, but the Keystone is a GREAT stove...

Bill

 

[Stump_Branch]

Bill or Todd, either of you know of any differences in keystone or palladian? Website appears as if the same

 

[leeave96]

Bill or Todd, either of you know of any differences in keystone or palladian? Website appears as if the same

They are identical, but have different looks. I think the Palladian is about $100 lower in cost. When we bought our Keystone, I wanted the Palladian, but my Wife said - NO, if you are going to look at the fire, you might as well see the whole thing. I love my Keystone, but still like the looks of the Palladian too.

Bill

 

[Todd]

Bill or Todd, either of you know of any differences in keystone or palladian? Website appears as if the same

Same exact size, only differences are the front cast, loading door, andirons and top exhaust plate.

 

[Jack22]

I am a very happy Keystone owner. This is my first wood stove and I could not be happier. I have been burning in mine for about two weeks now. Last night I loaded mine up at 10 pm went to work and when I returned home at 9 AM I had plenty of coals to start another fire. That was with a mix of hard woods. I can not wait to see my burn time when I fill the stove with my well seasoned black locust. Something to keep in mind with the keystone since you are working with a smaller space is that if you use 6 inch pipe instead of the 7 that is in the owners manual you are required to have an extra 2 inches of hearth in front of the stove. This is something I found out the hard way after I built my hearth. You wont find that info in the owners manual but if you call Woodstock one of there customer service members will let you know about it assuming that this rule has not changed. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

I never heard of this extra 2" hearth rule, did they ever state the reason why? I've asked them many times which pipe size is better for the Keystone since I rebuilt my chimney's and they always told me either one is fine and never mentioned this. I could see how it might effect the rear clearances but how would it effect the front?

I'm also impressed with my little stove's. Last night I had a good 10 hour burn with a full load of half punky Oak. Looks like I will be burning 24/7 soon and this small stove has no problems keeping up.

The Keystone owners manual specifies 7 inch pipe so my fire inspector needed a letter from Woodstock saying that 6 inch pipe was OK to use. In the letter it was stated that 6 inch pipe was OK but 10 inches of hearth would be needed in front of the stove. This came as a total surprise to me because when I first started looking into stoves Woodstock told be 6 inch pipe could be used but they never said anything about the extra two inches of hearth. Had I known this all along I might have gone with a different stove since I was working with a tight install space. The reason for the extra 2 inches was with the smaller pipe less heat would be able to escape through the pipe allowing the stove to run hotter. I guess the rear hearth size in the manual was satisfactory but they wanted a little more in the front. Woodstock definitely needs to update there Keystone owners manual online. I looked at so many different stoves and one of the deciding factors was the hearth size and clearances to combustibles. Luckily I was able to adjust and stick with the keystone but this might not be the case with everyone working with a tight space. Keystone has excellent customer service but this extra 2 inches is something that should be mentioned when they tell a potential customer that 6 inch pipe is OK.

 

[Todd]

I am a very happy Keystone owner. This is my first wood stove and I could not be happier. I have been burning in mine for about two weeks now. Last night I loaded mine up at 10 pm went to work and when I returned home at 9 AM I had plenty of coals to start another fire. That was with a mix of hard woods. I can not wait to see my burn time when I fill the stove with my well seasoned black locust. Something to keep in mind with the keystone since you are working with a smaller space is that if you use 6 inch pipe instead of the 7 that is in the owners manual you are required to have an extra 2 inches of hearth in front of the stove. This is something I found out the hard way after I built my hearth. You wont find that info in the owners manual but if you call Woodstock one of there customer service members will let you know about it assuming that this rule has not changed. Good luck with whatever you decide.

-Jack

I never heard of this extra 2" hearth rule, did they ever state the reason why? I've asked them many times which pipe size is better for the Keystone since I rebuilt my chimney's and they always told me either one is fine and never mentioned this. I could see how it might effect the rear clearances but how would it effect the front?

I'm also impressed with my little stove's. Last night I had a good 10 hour burn with a full load of half punky Oak. Looks like I will be burning 24/7 soon and this small stove has no problems keeping up.

The Keystone owners manual specifies 7 inch pipe so my fire inspector needed a letter from Woodstock saying that 6 inch pipe was OK to use. In the letter it was stated that 6 inch pipe was OK but 10 inches of hearth would be needed in front of the stove. This came as a total surprise to me because when I first started looking into stoves Woodstock told be 6 inch pipe could be used but they never said anything about the extra two inches of hearth. Had I known this all along I might have gone with a different stove since I was working with a tight install space. The reason for the extra 2 inches was with the smaller pipe less heat would be able to escape through the pipe allowing the stove to run hotter. I guess the rear hearth size in the manual was satisfactory but they wanted a little more in the front. Woodstock definitely needs to update there Keystone owners manual online. I looked at so many different stoves and one of the deciding factors was the hearth size and clearances to combustibles. Luckily I was able to adjust and stick with the keystone but this might not be the case with everyone working with a tight space. Keystone has excellent customer service but this extra 2 inches is something that should be mentioned when they tell a potential customer that 6 inch pipe is OK.

Glad you brought this up Jack. It has been too many years since Woodstock had this 6" pipe tested and yet no change or addition to the manual, not good. I don't criticise Woodstock very often but they dropped the ball on this one unless it was a recent change.

Just found out the testing on 6" pipe was done a couple years ago by Omni labs and they have been waiting on the final report from them ever since. I suppose they can't change the manual til they get the final report.

 

[jonwright]

But look on the bright side. It's pretty near impossible to have a runaway overfire with this stove (unless you've stuffed it full of pallet wood or something).

Seems 300 is about right for the little stove for stove top temp. Flue temps for me are right @ 225-300.

So when do you dial this thing back? Seems when I kick-starting it with initial fire I have to totally let all the wood go to coals for the first load, then more than likely another load before I get a nice fire out of it. Even then the flue temps MIGHT get up to 300 if I've left it open for 2 hrs or so.

You do anything different? I'm wondering at what point I'm just sending heat up the flue and not getting anywhere. Dunno - maybe that's just how it is with the little guy.

 

[gyrfalcon]

But look on the bright side. It's pretty near impossible to have a runaway overfire with this stove (unless you've stuffed it full of pallet wood or something).

Seems 300 is about right for the little stove for stove top temp. Flue temps for me are right @ 225-300.

So when do you dial this thing back? Seems when I kick-starting it with initial fire I have to totally let all the wood go to coals for the first load, then more than likely another load before I get a nice fire out of it. Even then the flue temps MIGHT get up to 300 if I've left it open for 2 hrs or so.

You do anything different? I'm wondering at what point I'm just sending heat up the flue and not getting anywhere. Dunno - maybe that's just how it is with the little guy.

Oh, you definitely want to dial back the primary air sooner. When you say "get a nice fire out of it," what do you mean?

I don't have a flue thermometer, so I just have to go by the way it all looks and how it behaves. There's also that time lag before the heat inside the box is reflected on the stovetop thermometer, which is longest starting from a cold or nearly cold stove.

I generally start with a relatively small fire, less than half a load of no more than 3-inch stuff, loosely loaded a little bit criss-cross so there's lots of air circulating around (I use a quarter of a super-cedar to get it started), and wait 5 or 10 mins until that's going good. Then I'll poke it around a bit and put some more wood on, but still not full. I let 'er riip with wide-open primary for about 20-30 minutes to heat up the chimney good, then dial the primary back to about halfway. I let that sit for a while, maybe nudge the primary down another bit if it's all going well.

When that's almost burned down but still has some flames, I'll put in another half load, open the air a bit and wait to see that that's catching nicely, then put in some bigger stuff until the box is pretty full but not jammed tight. At that point, the draft is going very well and as the wood starts to char on the outside, I'll dial the primary back down to half or a little less. That's when the stovetop temperature really starts to go up.

At that point, I'm good to go. When that's burned down to hot coals (but I can still see the shape of some of the wood, so not all the way burned down), that's the time I reload. You want to reload when the temperature on the stovetop thermometer is just starting to drop from where it had pegged. Again, I start with just a couple pieces, open the air a bit, make sure that catches (which it usually does basically right away), then load up again, take the air down. Etc.

The key is not to let stuff burn all the way down to small coals, and a big temperature drop, before reloading.

All of the above happens very easily and nicely when it's cold out. Above 40 degrees or so, and it's a little sluggish because the draft isn't as good.

Also key-- it absolutely has to be totally dry wood.

I find even with dry wood and my good draft, I can't stuff the box absolutely full to the gills with big pieces and have it burn well unless I've got a really good coal bed built up over the course of a number of burn cycles, and even then it can be a little dicey. There really has to be a little room in the box for air to circulate around so all the wood can catch if I want a really hot fire.

Hope that helps.

 

[Battenkiller]

The reason for the extra 2 inches was with the smaller pipe less heat would be able to escape through the pipe allowing the stove to run hotter. I guess the rear hearth size in the manual was satisfactory but they wanted a little more in the front...

... this extra 2 inches is something that should be mentioned when they tell a potential customer that 6 inch pipe is OK.

I don't know where they came up with the extra 2" clearance. These figures aren't arbitrarily assigned, the are derived from test data on burns done in independent labs, and the cost for doing the tests is both expensive and time consuming, holding up production (as could be seen in the Woodstock Progress Hybrid this season) and costing manufacturers money. In order to get real clearance numbers for a smaller pipe, you'd have to run a separate test for the 6" pipe. Doesn't make sense to me.

I called Woodstock yesterday and asked about the 7" pipe, and the guy I talked to never mentioned the extra front clearance. He said the reason for the 7" pipe had to do with how the stove performed at a certain burn rate with 3 els in the exhaust system. He said with a straight run that 6" would work perfectly fine.

It seems to me that if 6" pipe is holding so much heat back that you need extra front clearance, a flue damper has the potential to cause even more problems.

 

[Todd]

The reason for the extra 2 inches was with the smaller pipe less heat would be able to escape through the pipe allowing the stove to run hotter. I guess the rear hearth size in the manual was satisfactory but they wanted a little more in the front...

... this extra 2 inches is something that should be mentioned when they tell a potential customer that 6 inch pipe is OK.

I don't know where they came up with the extra 2" clearance. These figures aren't arbitrarily assigned, the are derived from test data on burns done in independent labs, and the cost for doing the tests is both expensive and time consuming, holding up production (as could be seen in the Woodstock Progress Hybrid this season) and costing manufacturers money. In order to get real clearance numbers for a smaller pipe, you'd have to run a separate test for the 6" pipe. Doesn't make sense to me.

I called Woodstock yesterday and asked about the 7" pipe, and the guy I talked to never mentioned the extra front clearance. He said the reason for the 7" pipe had to do with how the stove performed at a certain burn rate with 3 els in the exhaust system. He said with a straight run that 6" would work perfectly fine.

It seems to me that if 6" pipe is holding so much heat back that you need extra front clearance, a flue damper has the potential to cause even more problems.

It was tested two years ago at Omni Labs with 6" to get offical results and that's when they changed the front clearance. Still waiting on the paper work from the lab according to Woodstock. It would be interesting to see the actual test results and numbers. Does this mean the stove is more efficient with 6" pipe verses 7" since it burns hotter?

 

[Battenkiller]

It was tested two years ago at Omni Labs with 6" to get offical results and that's when they changed the front clearance. Still waiting on the paper work from the lab according to Woodstock. It would be interesting to see the actual test results and numbers. Does this mean the stove is more efficient with 6" pipe verses 7" since it burns hotter?

Funny thing, Ron from Woodstock just called me because I sent in an online reservation for a Keystone. I asked him about this issue and he said they never gave them a clear answer as to why the front (and only the front) clearance was increased. He said it doesn't make the stove burn more or less efficiently, but if the front clearance is greater, more heat must be coming out the front. He thought the stove might draft better with the 6", but I assume that is because the flue gas temps would be higher, not because there is more actual heat flow. The total heat flow up the stack is a combination of both flue gas temp and flow rate. Flow rate with be lower through a 6" pipe rather than a 7" pipe, so even though the actual gas temp is higher, the total heat leaving the flue might be the same.

Bottom line is they've been running one in the workshop with a 6" flue for a while now and it works fine. The only problem I can think of would be at the highest output, where a 6" flue may fall a bit short on the capacity to vent all of the exhaust gases produced, so peak output might be reduced. My Vigilant requires an 8" flue. The manual says you can use 6" but you might get smoke rollout when reloading. My sweep says that I'll never get the full heat capacity out of that stove using 6" pipe regardless of the flue gas temp, it simply lacks the capacity needed.

 

[Todd]

It was tested two years ago at Omni Labs with 6" to get offical results and that's when they changed the front clearance. Still waiting on the paper work from the lab according to Woodstock. It would be interesting to see the actual test results and numbers. Does this mean the stove is more efficient with 6" pipe verses 7" since it burns hotter?

Funny thing, Ron from Woodstock just called me because I sent in an online reservation for a Keystone. I asked him about this issue and he said they never gave them a clear answer as to why the front (and only the front) clearance was increased. He said it doesn't make the stove burn more or less efficiently, but if the front clearance is greater, more heat must be coming out the front. He thought the stove might draft better with the 6", but I assume that is because the flue gas temps would be higher, not because there is more actual heat flow. The total heat flow up the stack is a combination of both flue gas temp and flow rate. Flow rate with be lower through a 6" pipe rather than a 7" pipe, so even though the actual gas temp is higher, the total heat leaving the flue might be the same.

Bottom line is they've been running one in the workshop with a 6" flue for a while now and it works fine. The only problem I can think of would be at the highest output, where a 6" flue may fall a bit short on the capacity to vent all of the exhaust gases produced, so peak output might be reduced. My Vigilant requires an 8" flue. The manual says you can use 6" but you might get smoke rollout when reloading. My sweep says that I'll never get the full heat capacity out of that stove using 6" pipe regardless of the flue gas temp, it simply lacks the capacity needed.

Congrats on the new stove, your going to love it. What size pipe will you use? :lol: I just don't see why they would use 7" for this stove when the other stoves all take 6"? It's even smaller fire box wise. Why not standardise all your stoves to take one size, just change the castings to fit 6" and be done with it. It's cheaper than 7" and passed the test. Maybe the older model Keystone couldn't pass with 6" before they made the new mods and they just left it that way.

 

[Battenkiller]

Congrats on the new stove, your going to love it.

No, no... sorry to mislead. I wish that was the case.

He was just calling to see if I still wanted it before the sale ended (ended yesterday, actually). I decided it would be foolish to try to get a stove right now. We won't be moving into the new place until possibly after the first of the year, and we will be going full-tilt boogie getting unpacked and settled. I have to start right away getting my shop set up in the basement, and that will require at least some of the walls framed, insulated, and sheetrocked. I'm no carpenter, I get the job done OK but I'm slow as s***. No shop, no money. Stove install would have to take a back seat.

Then I'd have to go to Woodstock and get the stove (full day trip), come back and work on the install (full week for me). Besides, I don't have any wood. I sold my stove and the whatever wood I have left when we move out is going with the deal. Last thing I want to do is start using a new stove with unseasoned wood.

Anyway, I figured it'd be about March before I had everything settled. Little late in the season to be worrying about getting heat into the basement. Maybe Woodstock will have another sweet sale next year, but this year is shot for burning after we leave here. I'm pretty bummed, but there is always another burn season just around the corner.

 

[Todd]

Congrats on the new stove, your going to love it.

No, no... sorry to mislead. I wish that was the case.

He was just calling to see if I still wanted it before the sale ended (ended yesterday, actually). I decided it would be foolish to try to get a stove right now. We won't be moving into the new place until possibly after the first of the year, and we will be going full-tilt boogie getting unpacked and settled. I have to start right away getting my shop set up in the basement, and that will require at least some of the walls framed, insulated, and sheetrocked. I'm no carpenter, I get the job done OK but I'm slow as s***. No shop, no money. Stove install would have to take a back seat.

Then I'd have to go to Woodstock and get the stove (full day trip), come back and work on the install (full week for me). Besides, I don't have any wood. I sold my stove and the whatever wood I have left when we move out is going with the deal. Last thing I want to do is start using a new stove with unseasoned wood.

Anyway, I figured it'd be about March before I had everything settled. Little late in the season to be worrying about getting heat into the basement. Maybe Woodstock will have another sweet sale next year, but this year is shot for burning after we leave here. I'm pretty bummed, but there is always another burn season just around the corner.

Well keep your eye out for their refurb sale in Mar or Apr, that's what I did last year and got a sweat deal at $1700. Good luck with the new place sounds like you have your hands full.

 

[jonwright]

But look on the bright side. It's pretty near impossible to have a runaway overfire with this stove (unless you've stuffed it full of pallet wood or something).

Seems 300 is about right for the little stove for stove top temp. Flue temps for me are right @ 225-300.

So when do you dial this thing back? Seems when I kick-starting it with initial fire I have to totally let all the wood go to coals for the first load, then more than likely another load before I get a nice fire out of it. Even then the flue temps MIGHT get up to 300 if I've left it open for 2 hrs or so.

You do anything different? I'm wondering at what point I'm just sending heat up the flue and not getting anywhere. Dunno - maybe that's just how it is with the little guy.

Oh, you definitely want to dial back the primary air sooner. When you say "get a nice fire out of it," what do you mean?

I don't have a flue thermometer, so I just have to go by the way it all looks and how it behaves. There's also that time lag before the heat inside the box is reflected on the stovetop thermometer, which is longest starting from a cold or nearly cold stove.

I generally start with a relatively small fire, less than half a load of no more than 3-inch stuff, loosely loaded a little bit criss-cross so there's lots of air circulating around (I use a quarter of a super-cedar to get it started), and wait 5 or 10 mins until that's going good. Then I'll poke it around a bit and put some more wood on, but still not full. I let 'er riip with wide-open primary for about 20-30 minutes to heat up the chimney good, then dial the primary back to about halfway. I let that sit for a while, maybe nudge the primary down another bit if it's all going well.

When that's almost burned down but still has some flames, I'll put in another half load, open the air a bit and wait to see that that's catching nicely, then put in some bigger stuff until the box is pretty full but not jammed tight. At that point, the draft is going very well and as the wood starts to char on the outside, I'll dial the primary back down to half or a little less. That's when the stovetop temperature really starts to go up.

At that point, I'm good to go. When that's burned down to hot coals (but I can still see the shape of some of the wood, so not all the way burned down), that's the time I reload. You want to reload when the temperature on the stovetop thermometer is just starting to drop from where it had pegged. Again, I start with just a couple pieces, open the air a bit, make sure that catches (which it usually does basically right away), then load up again, take the air down. Etc.

The key is not to let stuff burn all the way down to small coals, and a big temperature drop, before reloading.

All of the above happens very easily and nicely when it's cold out. Above 40 degrees or so, and it's a little sluggish because the draft isn't as good.

Also key-- it absolutely has to be totally dry wood.

I find even with dry wood and my good draft, I can't stuff the box absolutely full to the gills with big pieces and have it burn well unless I've got a really good coal bed built up over the course of a number of burn cycles, and even then it can be a little dicey. There really has to be a little room in the box for air to circulate around so all the wood can catch if I want a really hot fire.

Hope that helps.

Yup. Very close to what I'm doing - so at least I'm not far off. OK - wanted to make sure I wasn't leaving any BTU's on the table!

 

[Jack22]

The reason for the extra 2 inches was with the smaller pipe less heat would be able to escape through the pipe allowing the stove to run hotter. I guess the rear hearth size in the manual was satisfactory but they wanted a little more in the front...

... this extra 2 inches is something that should be mentioned when they tell a potential customer that 6 inch pipe is OK.

I don't know where they came up with the extra 2" clearance. These figures aren't arbitrarily assigned, the are derived from test data on burns done in independent labs, and the cost for doing the tests is both expensive and time consuming, holding up production (as could be seen in the Woodstock Progress Hybrid this season) and costing manufacturers money. In order to get real clearance numbers for a smaller pipe, you'd have to run a separate test for the 6" pipe. Doesn't make sense to me.

I called Woodstock yesterday and asked about the 7" pipe, and the guy I talked to never mentioned the extra front clearance. He said the reason for the 7" pipe had to do with how the stove performed at a certain burn rate with 3 els in the exhaust system. He said with a straight run that 6" would work perfectly fine.

It seems to me that if 6" pipe is holding so much heat back that you need extra front clearance, a flue damper has the potential to cause even more problems.

I may have been wrong about the reasoning for the six inch pipe. It has been months since I talked to Woodstock about the issue so it was wrong of me to state there reasoning without being 100%sure of it. If I was wrong I apologize for stating bad information. My main reason for chiming in on this thread is to let people know that I was required to have an extra two inches of frontal hearth since I was using 6 inch pipe. I think that anytime Woodstock tells a potential customer they can use the 6 inch they should immediately notify them about the extra 2 inches of hearth regardless of the reasoning. Congrats on the new house. Very exciting and often stressful time buying one. Lots of luck with it.